'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[Ootohere]

David Miliband that Ex MP & Labour Party member, (maybe not a Socialist.) made his brief appearance to put in his twopence worth & his wise words.

He lives in the United States now, earns around half a million pound (gets paid half a million pound, plus, plus, plus)

to head a Charity to help those in most need.

Rents out his London Home.

Maybe gifting his home to the needy while away would be more appropriate.

We will not get into where his family came from because the UK was and should still be welcoming to all.

http://rescue.org/david-miliband

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36017170

*** Small point but in the real world,

7 days a week, so 7 x 38 pence = £2.66,,  But then Politicians and Charity bosses were never good with figures!.***

Also Net & Gross is an issue with them, probably because they never learned about Tax and Deduction's.

Edited 27 April, 2016 by GoneOffSKi

[trundlenut]

Nobody has even mentioned immigration but you keep bringing it up. Trying to demonise people wanting to leave by saying they are scared of immigrants is so transparent. Many of the people on the leave campaign are first and second generation immigrants themselves.

But the leave campaign bring it up a lot. I know several people who are voting to leave specifically because of immigration. One of whom believes if we don't leave then hundreds of thousands of Turks will flood the UK in the next year.

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[Scribbler]

But the leave campaign bring it up a lot. I know several people who are voting to leave specifically because of immigration. One of whom believes if we don't leave then hundreds of thousands of Turks will flood the UK in the next year.

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They are entitled to their opinion however bigoted that's how a democracy works. If the decision is to remain in the EU I would be in favour of Turkey joining if that had a positive impact on how they treated women, gays and other minority groups but sadly they would just veto any legislation that went against conservative religious norms and more likely they would upset the apple cart in Brussels by blocking moves to further improve human rights. Its a shame because there are many different faiths and cultures within turkey they have a lot to offer but that hardline government is a problem and the fact that it borders Syria.

[mender]

They are entitled to their opinion however bigoted that's how a democracy works. If the decision is to remain in the EU I would be in favour of Turkey joining if that had a positive impact on how they treated women, gays and other minority groups but sadly they would just veto any legislation that went against conservative religious norms and more likely they would upset the apple cart in Brussels by blocking moves to further improve human rights. Its a shame because there are many different faiths and cultures within turkey they have a lot to offer but that hardline government is a problem and the fact that it borders Syria.

Good point.

Even as an EU-phile I can't understand why the EU does not use powers to enforce the constitution; look at Hungary and Orban with the migrants and lately look at the utter madness in Poland now PiS (the Law and Justice Party) have got in and removed media staff, replaced them with their own staff so the news is now propaganda, have meddled with the Sehm, are trying to force through a total ban on abortion and have given huge power to the church-eg making it law that land of over 2Ha can only be sold to the church or to a local farmer, resident for a period and with land already.

Much of this goes against the EU constitution and nothing is being done-even though there are now daily huge protests around the country.

Does not look good in context for Turkey fitting in with the same, does it?

Edited 27 April, 2016 by mender

[Scribbler]

Good point.

Even as an EU-phile I can't understand why the EU does not use powers to enforce the constitution; look at Hungary and Orban with the migrants and lately look at the utter madness in Poland now PiS (the Law and Justice Party) have got in and removed media staff, replaced them with their own staff so the news is now propaganda, have meddled with the Sehm, are trying to force through a total ban on abortion and have given huge power to the church-eg making it law that land of over 2Ha can only be sold to the church or to a local farmer, resident for a period and with land already.

Much of this goes against the EU constitution and nothing is being done-even though there are now daily huge protests around the country.

Does not look good in context for Turkey fitting in with the same, does it?

 

I was just going to touch on Poland and the shift towards anti abortion but you put it better than I ever could. The EU is great as an idea but the mechanism is broken and toothless. Member states are so different culturally that you will never get a consensus. If all the Member states were secular like France I would be an advocate in the remain camp. But the EU is toothless and it appears to me anyway that the UK and maybe two others are the only ones who follow the rules to the letter. The others don't enforce anything and therefor gives them a competitive edge and also makes a mockery of the system.

[domhnall]

The Monarchy is purely symbolic in role and the house of lords is a flawed system that does need reform but countless examples of where they have stopped governments making huge mistakes. so there needs to be something to keep them in check, what that body looks like im not sure. However your advocating replacing one broken system with an even more broken but remote and unaccountable system is some fuzzy logic im not familiar with. We can fix our system with the collective will of the people but we can't fix systemic problems in the EU.

 

 

now that's not quite true is it? The government lost an FOI battle a few years ago and it emerged that the Queen and Prince Charles each have a power of veto over new laws. 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills

I'm not advocating replacing the Lords with Brussels. We already have both so it's not an issue of replacing one with another.

I was suggesting (in 2014) that we do away with Westminster, and then we collaborate internationally in our own right, so the governments we choose would represent us in international bodies like the UN, the EU etc rather than unelected peers - in the last round of fishing discussions we didn't send the relevant Scottish minister with some years of experience in the matter, we were represented by the unelected Lord de Mauley. It's not a model of democracy, ignore the person elected under proportional representation and instead send an unelected peer. 

[mender]

I was just going to touch on Poland and the shift towards anti abortion but you put it better than I ever could. The EU is great as an idea but the mechanism is broken and toothless. Member states are so different culturally that you will never get a consensus. If all the Member states were secular like France I would be an advocate in the remain camp. But the EU is toothless and it appears to me anyway that the UK and maybe two others are the only ones who follow the rules to the letter. The others don't enforce anything and therefor gives them a competitive edge and also makes a mockery of the system.

It is one of the concerns I have about the EU, but I still think we can work on this rather than bail out and undo a great deal of good work.

Importantly, if we do leave, NI will be screwed in many ways-their economy is the most vulnerable to Brexit, but more to the point, sectarianism will be back and the "troubles" will no longer be a thing of the past with a hard border re-instated. This is a huge factor for me.

[trundlenut]

They are entitled to their opinion however bigoted that's how a democracy works. If the decision is to remain in the EU I would be in favour of Turkey joining if that had a positive impact on how they treated women, gays and other minority groups but sadly they would just veto any legislation that went against conservative religious norms and more likely they would upset the apple cart in Brussels by blocking moves to further improve human rights. Its a shame because there are many different faiths and cultures within turkey they have a lot to offer but that hardline government is a problem and the fact that it borders Syria.

Think you missed the point there.

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[Scribbler]

Think you missed the point there.

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No I got the point, that the remain camp think everyone who wants to leave the EU is a racist, doesn't like immigration and thinks the uk will be flooded with Turks. I was pointing out that I don't really care much about immigration and I think Turkey joining the EU would be a good thing If the EU was to have a positive effect on Turkey but more likely is that Turkey joining will have a negative impact on the EU in its current state of affairs. That's not a slight on the Turkish people more a perception of Turkish politics and culture being at odds with the EU's ethos.

[gadgetman]

They are entitled to their opinion however bigoted that's how a democracy works. If the decision is to remain in the EU I would be in favour of Turkey joining if that had a positive impact on how they treated women, gays and other minority groups but sadly they would just veto any legislation that went against conservative religious norms and more likely they would upset the apple cart in Brussels by blocking moves to further improve human rights. Its a shame because there are many different faiths and cultures within turkey they have a lot to offer but that hardline government is a problem and the fact that it borders Syria.

Turkey will have to accept and implement existing eu laws including protection of the groups you mention.

Not every member has a power of veto. Iirc only 6 member states do, of which we're one along with France, Germany, Belgium, Italy & Spain (see the link?)

As for immigration, the common mention including by yourself is control of our borders.

The majority of the brexit arguments aren't as simple and straightforward as they sell, and even if we left nothing fundamental would change. Certainly not as voters are being told.

Have you looked at the full fact site yet?

[mender]

Turkey will have to accept and implement existing eu laws including protection of the groups you mention.

Acceptance and implementation of EU laws is not happening as we speak in Poland and the EU is and has been forever "monitoring the situation"

A bit like the priests in Father Ted voting to say another mass for Dougal when trapped with a bomb, rather than taking action....

[trundlenut]

No I got the point, that the remain camp think everyone who wants to leave the EU is a racist, doesn't like immigration and thinks the uk will be flooded with Turks. I was pointing out that I don't really care much about immigration and I think Turkey joining the EU would be a good thing If the EU was to have a positive effect on Turkey but more likely is that Turkey joining will have a negative impact on the EU in its current state of affairs. That's not a slight on the Turkish people more a perception of Turkish politics and culture being at odds with the EU's ethos.

That wasn't it.

The point was that people can raise issues and not just respond to yours.

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[jlwah]

Turkey will have to accept and implement existing eu laws including protection of the groups you mention.

What like France?

 

I trust Turkey less than France and believe me, that takes some doing!! France treats EU laws as merely advisory and most are treated to a 'gallic shrug' and questioning look.

[gadgetman]

Thoughts on Trumps comments ref allies and trading with the US?

Pretty much the same content as Obama got slated for by the brexit lot last week.

[gadgetman]

The EU was a CIA project

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/27/the-european-union-always-was-a-cia-project-as-brexiteers-discov/

So no us trade deals then

[VWD]

Need any more reasons to leave ? Would Obama let other countries NON ELECTED bodies say which laws the USA could/could not bring in .

Perhaps this is a good example of WHY we should get out

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/eu-threatens-to-take-britain-to-court-over-lorry-tax/?ref=yfp

The EU's leadership is threatening to take Britain to court over two road and rail policies, in a new headache for the Government ahead of the referendum on membership.

 

"Matthew Elliott, the group’s chief executive, said the move was an “outrage”. 

“Much like our borders and our economy, a decision over this issue will not be made by the people we elect, but by EU judges,” he said."

[gadgetman]

So how do Austria get away with it?

 

Edit: explained - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1456_en.htm

 

Germany also affected

[Clunkclick]

"No Project Fear . . . . . In 'ere !"

 

 

 

Moscow's six 'penneth ?:-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM

 

Love the factual inaccuracy about the Falaise Gap.

 

Nick

Edited 1 May, 2016 by Clunkclick

[lol-lol]

Need any more reasons to leave ? Would Obama let other countries NON ELECTED bodies say which laws the USA could/could not bring in .

Perhaps this is a good example of WHY we should get out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/eu-threatens-to-take-britain-to-court-over-lorry-tax/?ref=yfp

The EU's leadership is threatening to take Britain to court over two road and rail policies, in a new headache for the Government ahead of the referendum on membership.

"Matthew Elliott, the group’s chief executive, said the move was an “outrage”. 

“Much like our borders and our economy, a decision over this issue will not be made by the people we elect, but by EU judges,” he said."

 

It is amazing that the UK government was so stupid to even try it.   

 

Infraction proceeding are raised against any discriminatory practices.  You just need to do the same thing the French and Irish and many others do ie have toll roads away from the ports.  

 

French tried to charge lorries with more than 200 litres of diesel in their tanks and that was whammied as well.

 

All you have to do is be smart.

[VWD]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/de-gaulle-knew-it-britain-does-not-belong-in-the-eu/?ref=yfp

 

 

De Gaulle knew it: Britain does not belong in the EU

 

Says a lot.

[trundlenut]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/de-gaulle-knew-it-britain-does-not-belong-in-the-eu/?ref=yfp

De Gaulle knew it: Britain does not belong in the EU

Says a lot.

Says the Brexit lot still think it's the 60s?

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[VWD]

Think Churchill said it all as far as EU and the Cameron camp fright campaign  is concerned "you can fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people for some of the time, but you can NEVER fool all of the people all of the time" .

YEARS ago, one Tory MP, now Lord Tebbit said to the unemployed "GET ON YER BIKE".

Perhaps it's high time some set of Tory MP's echoed this sentiment to Cameron /the Remain lot and junkers.

[Ootohere]

Was Winston quoting Abraham Lincoln when he said that then?

(if Abe actually said it!)

 

We will fight them on the beaches, 

as the Mods shouted at the rockers!

[Scribbler]

"you can fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people for some of the time, but you can NEVER fool all of the people all of the time" .

 

 

That's Bob Marley 'n' ting.

[gadgetman]

And now Japan warns on trading outside the EU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36215146

Isn't that 4 or 5 of our international trading partners now?