Phil-E I understood all VAG 7 speed boxes were dry clutch, the only other VW DSG transmission is a wet 6 speed one as far as I can discover.   But as you say " All you will find in a new 10 speed gearbox is constant gear changes with short gear ratios" I guess your correct on this, but if I won't even know about it because this "short shifting" is happening so fast its humanly impossible to detect,!!! well it could possibly seem quite seamless like CVT while at same time being direct and without the 'Rubber Band' feeling experienced by CVT transmissions as people have stated.  

Nope

 

Phil-E I understood all VAG 7 speed boxes were dry clutch, the only other VW DSG transmission is a wet 6 speed one as far as I can discover.   But as you say " All you will find in a new 10 speed gearbox is constant gear changes with short gear ratios" I guess your correct on this, but if I won't even know about it because this "short shifting" is happening so fast its humanly impossible to detect,!!! well it could possibly seem quite seamless like CVT while at same time being direct and without the 'Rubber Band' feeling experienced by CVT transmissions as people have stated.  

No.

 

The DQ200 is a 7 speed dry clutch box for transverse engines

The DQ250 is a 6 speed wet clutch box for transverse engines.

 

Both the above used by Skoda

 

There is also a high torque DQ500 a 7 speed wet clutch for transverse engines. Used in a few VW models like the Golf R and Tiguan and a couple of Audi models like the TT-RS and new RS3

This could be used by Skoda.

 

Most Audi's are longitudinal engined and have an inline gearbox. This is the DL501 and is a 7 speed wet clutch. These wont fit any current Skoda.

 

There is also another dry clutch the DQ380 which is just for the Chinese market.

 

Lee

Yep, Its obvious that I'm not aware of all the minutiae regarding the technology, I'm not even sure if its fact that DSG is limited to only VAG cars, maybe all the other manufactures use torque converters with epicyclic boxes or utilise CVT variety of transmission!

 

If its the case that all existing DSG technology is actually 'first generation', and thus a decade old now, and ripe for an update, well I cant image that the result couldn't be anything other than a huge improvement in reliability and refinement.  I find it sad that the 10 speeds been shelved, and now I cant look forward to it anymore, but then... its not me putting up the ackers for it's development is it, :p

Alfa / Fiat, Renault, Hyundai, Suzuki do Twin Clutch Automated Manual Gearboxes just to name some other than VAG.

Yep, Its obvious that I'm not aware of all the minutiae regarding the technology, I'm not even sure if its fact that DSG is limited to only VAG cars, maybe all the other manufactures use torque converters with epicyclic boxes or utilise CVT variety of transmission!

 

If its the case that all existing DSG technology is actually 'first generation', and thus a decade old now, and ripe for an update, well I cant image that the result couldn't be anything other than a huge improvement in reliability and refinement.  I find it sad that the 10 speeds been shelved, and now I cant look forward to it anymore, but then... its not me putting up the ackers for it's development is it, :p

 

There are different DSGs ie the dty clutch ones like the ones in the Fabia VRS ie 7 speed, very efficient, small, no servicing required.

 

And there there are the wet VW ones.   Less efficient, needs oil changes ever 60k Kms I recall.

 

Other firms have dry DSGs ie Renault's EDC and Ford/Volvo have Powershift.  

Like VW it is dry clutches in the lower torque output (put can make power via revs) and wet clutches in the larger torquey engines.

 

Had both, prefer the dry as it improves fuel consumption and you gfet more gears for relaxed cruising and better acceleration and fuel consumption but it doe suit the petrol more than the diesel engines.  

Edited 19 March, 201610 yr by lol-lol

So what about a Transmission that's Constantly Variable with an infinite amount of ratios? Not sure if that's thought of yet. :p

Daf variomatic gearbox1958

GoneOffSKi said "Alfa / Fiat, Renault, Hyundai, Suzuki do Twin Clutch Automated Manual Gearboxes just to name some other than VAG".  Their all at it then it cant be that bad then.

 

lol-lol I'm intrigued by your preference for 'dry over wet': my personal experience of (Dry verses Wet) comes from motorcycles, they almost always use a 'wet clutch', whereas cars almost always (I think) have exclusively used dry ones.  I always preferred a bikes 'wet clutch' for its slippery smooth oily forgiving nature, over the dry grabbyness of a cars clutch, but then again with modern technology using fast microprocessor controlled servo operation... whose even going to know! and if the 'dry' gets the energy transmitted quicker and better than the wet? then the driving experience can only be better while still saving the planet at the same time. 

Edited 19 March, 201610 yr by Tamworthpig

moley I remember it, that thing had tendancy to launch ppl right in to the next world :s

GoneOffSKi said "Alfa / Fiat, Renault, Hyundai, Suzuki do Twin Clutch Automated Manual Gearboxes just to name some other than VAG".  Their all at it then it cant be that bad then.

 

lol-lol I'm intrigued by your preference for 'dry over wet': my personal experience of (Dry verses Wet) comes from motorcycles, they almost always use a 'wet clutch', whereas cars almost always (I think) have exclusively used dry ones.  I always preferred a bikes 'wet clutch' for its slippery smooth oily forgiving nature, over the dry grabbyness of a cars clutch, but then again with modern technology using fast microprocessor controlled servo operation... whose even going to know! and if the 'dry' gets the energy transmitted quicker and better than the wet? then the driving experience can only be better while still saving the planet at the same time. 

 

 

I have both on the drive. Prefer wet for it's low speed smoothness. On the move there is little difference.

 

But the dry is more efficient with smaller units.

Tamworthpig,

The Wet Clutch DSG were being used by VAG in higher powered engines in Preference to the Dry Clutch DSG which up to now have been used in lower output engines.

This is changing though.

 

The Gearboxes still have Oil in, the Dry Twinclutch did not need Servicing and Oil Changes.(DQ200)

Well until it was found there were failures and World Wide Recalls and Service Campaigns because VW never did enough R&D 

and it turns out the Synthetic Oil has resulted in internal Corrosion so Mineral Oil has had to replace it.

 

So VW are not saving the planet or anything else.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign

http://hp.net.au/index.php/products/dq200

 

Why can they not go ahead with 10 speed DSG, because they need to sort out what they already have and are not perfect, 

and because they were caught cheating on Emissions and are near skint.

Edited 19 March, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi

moley I remember it, that thing had tendancy to launch ppl right in to the next world :S

I think the Daf daffodil had a twin cylinder boxer 600cc lump, so not powerful enough to launch a custard pie.

70 mph limit and 7 speeds are already in 2nd by 6mph. Lots of Emperors clothes going on and like 27 speed mountain bikes were you might use 9 of those gears and occasionally more and often it is only 6 if even that.

 

My personal power band is so narrow I need all 27 gears on my bike.

lol-lol I'm intrigued by your preference for 'dry over wet': my personal experience of (Dry verses Wet) comes from motorcycles, they almost always use a 'wet clutch', whereas cars almost always (I think) have exclusively used dry ones.  I always preferred a bikes 'wet clutch' for its slippery smooth oily forgiving nature, over the dry grabbyness of a cars clutch, but then again with modern technology using fast microprocessor controlled servo operation... whose even going to know! and if the 'dry' gets the energy transmitted quicker and better than the wet? then the driving experience can only be better while still saving the planet at the same time. 

 

There is less power loss in the dry clutches than the wet ones.  Wet ones, bike or car, can take more abuse and with the thing being partly immersed in oil it will keep better within operating temp.

 

With the automatic system with the VAG system it is fine is spirited use but I never really spent much time getting launch control tested etc.  DQ200 is designed to last 400K Kms and some have run them up to 380 NM torque rather than the long life set limit of 250 Nms.

 

If one just let the waste gate running at a higher level then then some of the petrol cars running the 7 speed dry DSG can happily run at 250 hp by letting boost run up to 1.5 bar or so and then at 6k to 6.5k revs the engine is chucking out 250 hp which is plenty for a FWD car with the Octavia chassis ie overhang of body work over the back wheels etc.

 

Liked the 6 speed wet clutch option over the 5 speed manual but found the higher CO2 and worse fuel consumption of the 6 speed DSG over the 6 speed manual annoying.

 

DSG generally good but could get confused sometimes. Use to move mine from Drive to Sports quite a lot to force the lower ratios at junctions, roundabouts etc.

 

Now using a ZF box in the Jaaaag, no paddles sadly, I thing that is at least as good a gearbox, possibly better.    

Edited 19 March, 201610 yr by lol-lol

 

 

Now using a ZF box in the Jaaaag, no paddles sadly, I thing that is at least as good a gearbox, possibly better.    

 

Although the 6 speed ZF is even more inefficient than the wet clutch DSG. Owned two cars with this box, smooth yes, economical no.

 

The 8 Speed ZF box is a different story though, smooth, crisp, economical. Owned one for nearly 4 years, shame the transverse 9 speeder is no where near as good.

Do you mean the DSG fitted was less economic when used with those engines than if they had a manual box fitted, 

ie

you are saying the 6 speed DSG made an engine that could have been economic, less so?

Most applications of the 6 speed wetclutch are slightly less economical than the manual. That's under test conditions though and on the road I don't notice any significant difference.

 

On many models (Like my Passat) the difference is due to the manual running taller gearing. I actually prefer the gearing on the DSG.

 

Although the 7 speed DSG is supposed to be more economical than manuals our Fabia 1.2TSi is less economical around town than our Octavia 1.2TSi Manual.

 

Just goes to show you can't believe the official figures.

 

Lee

Well you can not believe ones that VWG did on many Euro 6 Engine vehicles in EU Testing and which are now being changed.

 

And you could not even believe them on many EU 5 engines, which really never mattered anyway unless you do all your commuting 

in a Temperature Controlled Building with a vehicle at the minimum weight.

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

Yes the 6 speed DSG is thirstier than with a 5 or 6 speed manual. The manual version of my car has a quoted average MPG of 52 whereas the DSG is 47.

 

On average though I don't think the difference is that high. We're averaging the same as the Seat Cordoba PD130 6 speed manual we had previously but in a bigger car.

 

And on a run it still easily does 50+ mpg so I'm happy.

 

DSG cars are usually in the tax band above the manual though so you have to pay more :(

 

The 6 speed is smother than the 7 speed dry though as it doesn't mind slipping the clutches a bit to smooth things out.

The cars / vans are in the tax band from the EU testing by the manufacturers.

 

Take the Seat Ibiza Cupra 2009, 3 door 1.4 tsi (180ps) 132 kW DSG,  Seat had it with a Co2 g/km of 148.  215/40 R 17 tyres

They launched the Skoda Fabia Mk2 vRS, same engine gearbox, (180ps) car lighter than the Ibiza) but 25 KG ballast to make it 5 kG heavier than the vRS Estate, also Co2 g/km 148.

** If they had not the Hatch might have been 1 band lower than the Estate, same as the Seat, VW & Audi.**

 

They launch the VW Polo GTI 1.4 tsi (180ps) 132kW DSG Then the 5 door, both heavier than the Fabia & Seat, on 215/40 R 17 Tyres.

Then the Audi A1, 3 or 5 Door 1.4 tsi (185ps) 136kW DSG, 

Both are given as 

Co2 g/km 139.   A band lower, a MPH or 2 quicker and better MPG.

**Maybe Road testers and reviewers could have put them on the scales and also done real comparisons side by side, 

maybe VW should have been questioned then on EU testing on rolling roads, and Unladen Weights, cars tested with no Spare Wheel as standard fitment etc.**

 

Then 2012 the Fabia gets a new engine, the CTHE (180ps) , the Co2 stays at Co2 G/ km 148

Seat have the Ibiza FR 150 (ps) 1.4 DSG on 215/40 r tyres and Co2 g/km 139,

then the New Ibiza Cupra is Launched 2013, same weight as the 2010-2012 Fabia, & the 2012-2014.

Same engine and gearbox as Skoda Fitted in 2012 goes in the Seat,

Seat change the EU Testing and it get Co2 g/km of 139.

 

VW Tested their cars supposedly for Euro 6, and are now Correcting the Co2 g/km & MPG's, because they were cheating them, the tests they cheated for years or they submit the results of have been checked.

(Their Unladen Weights need checked as well, because the amount of times they are corrected a year or 2 after launch is unreal.)

 

Maybe in Real World driving outside testing the vehicles should be at 'Revenue Weight', 

ie fully loaded, then buyers will know that if they drive lighter cars not loaded then they might get to the Test MPG's, 

and the Emissions might be less.*  Some hope!

Edited 24 March, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi

Well then, what about the 7 speed DQ500 transmission, could this unit end up replacing the '6 speeder' across the board?  Wet clutch and of similar dimension and weight to the 6 speed, yet it can take lots more torque, it's extra ratio must surely help to reduce the step between each individual gear.  VW have a huge new factory in China producing the DQ500 box, and its also made at other plants across the globe, if rate of production of this unit permitted, wouldn't it make sense to use this box as a solution for the shelved 10 speed box?

DQ500 makes sense on higher torque units so could replace the 6 speed wet clutch but it's still not as efficient as the 7 speed dry clutch so i would't expect to see it on smaller engines.

 

Lee

Skoda CZ increased the manufacturing capacity of DSG's at the factory in 2015 by 50%.

 

Skoda do not build that many High Torque Vehicles and those with 280Ps or so are catered for with the Gearboxes produced and used in VW's, Audi's & Porsche etc.

 

The next new Skoda model the Kodiaq will need the gearbox to suit the Hybrid drivetrain and those are going to be available from the Audi Factories in Hungary as VW Group sales drop around the world.

 

It is not like the VW Group need to build more versions of performance cars before they sort out their problems building low emissions vehicles, 

so going lighter and fuel / emissions efficient is surely their main mission now, and maybe some increased reliability and easy maintenance 

by not very well trained Servicing Operatives around the world.

Lee said 

 

DQ500 makes sense on higher torque units so could replace the 6 speed wet clutch but it's still not as efficient as the 7 speed dry clutch so i would't expect to see it on smaller engines.

 

yep, its interesting how VW have 2 irons in the fire over the 'wet verses dry' double clutch question.

 

GoneOffSKi said 

Skoda CZ increased the manufacturing capacity of DSG's at the factory in 2015 by 50%.

 

Skoda do not build that many High Torque Vehicles and those with 280Ps or so are catered for with the Gearboxes produced and used in VW's, Audi's & Porsche etc.

 

The next new Skoda model the Kodiaq will need the gearbox to suit the Hybrid drivetrain and those are going to be available from the Audi Factories in Hungary as VW Group sales drop around the world.

 

It is not like the VW Group need to build more versions of performance cars before they sort out their problems building low emissions vehicles, 

so going lighter and fuel / emissions efficient is surely their main mission now, and maybe some increased reliability and easy maintenance 

by not very well trained Servicing Operatives around the world.

 

Lots of matters and questions you mention GoneOffSKi, it strike's me what an immensely complicated situation VW group have gotten themselves into with their 'modular' method of car production that's spanning many different marque's, country's and even continents, I wish em all the luck in it.

.

 

Skoda do not build that many High Torque Vehicles and those with 280Ps or so are catered for with the Gearboxes produced and used in VW's, Audi's & Porsche etc.

 

 

 

 

It's not the power though it's the torque so even a lower powered 2.0Tdi's  get the 6 speed wetclutch

 

So any 2.0 diesel or 2.0 petrol Octavia, Yeti, Superb, Kodiaq.  These could all benefit from the DQ500 7 speed wet clutch if the 6 Speed DQ250 was dropped.

 

Most Audi's and all Porsches do not have a box suitable for any Skoda as they use a Longitudinal layout. Only the smaller Audi's A3 etc use a transverse layout and they use the DQ200/250/500.

 

The current hybrids in the Golf/Passat use a modified DQ250 six speed wet clutch.

 

As the Kodiaq is MQB based it will have a transverse engine so it's current options are the DQ200/250/500

 

Lee 

Where a pair of wheels are being driven by Electric Motors means that the Internal Combustion Engine can have the more conventional gearbox to deal with the torque it produces and that gear box is not even connected to the other wheels. 

ie Part Time AWD Hybrids, the Front Wheel Drive conventional drive is not producing that high a torque output, 

the Electric Drive boosts the vehicles power.  The E-Tronic set up currently is driving FWD with the Gearboxes being used.

But the technology is already there with other manufacturers and the VWG just use what they already gleaned from buying into those companies in the past, and play catch up where they are still well behind others.

Edited 27 March, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi