Above and beyond the call of duty.

Watch those 'Fully Trained Arnold Clark Technicians' it is nice that they are doing a 6 week check for you.

Just be sure they do not overfill the oil or the Coolant up to MAX.

& if they check and adjust the tyre pressures, check and adjust later your self, or just ask what they set them to.

So I did all the cold checks this morning but ran out of time for the hot check. I did try it but hadn't given it long enough to settle is it just kept coming out but way up the dip stick.

However, when I checked it cold it was at Max, so I assume it will be lower once warm as its moved around. I did mention I thought there might be too much in it when I handed it over so hopefully they checked. Will give it a proper check soon.

The only issue with that one is fogging up in the cold!

 

Well the Polo gets garaged normally so misting up in cold weather is not an issue, I have a 2009 Ibiza, and it is terrible for misting up in cold weather, normally I need to stop and clear the windows a few times until it warms up - it has always been like that from new - though no signs of moisture getting into the car, mainly a coating on the glass that can't be got rid off I think, plus being parked outside.

I've worked in the motor trade for years and it really makes no difference what the oil temperature is at when dipping the level. All garages will change your oil and cold check the level anyway. They certainly won't warm the engine up to dip it hot! The difference between a hot and a cold check will be negligable.

?

Are you a Mechanic or Technician working servicing cars in the Motor Trade?

 

Very true if you are talking UK / Europe or some World Regions, but then you get differences above sea level, 

Ambient Temperatures then Oil Capacities in engines that can vary from 2.8 Litres in some to 4.8 litres in others.

 

In a 1.4 TSI Twincharger the difference can be 0.5 litres in an engine with a oil capacity of 3.6 litres and a pretty crap Dip stick so the dipstick looks right & the oil level can show above area B, or in Area A.

So a Service is done and the customer has a car which should have 3.6 litres, many get 4 litres, 

and some end up just with 3.1 litres or so in.

(Customers trust technicians, and few dip oil when collecting a car, they only check some time later and think it used oil, 

maybe not enough was put in, sometimes too much and the engine is using oil.)

 

People who have worked in the motor trade and know that the difference is negligable have different beliefs from others that have worked 

in the motor trade as mechanics or technicians and pay enough attention to different engines to know how important it is.

 

Especially with VW Group engines with like 3.6 litre capacity and which can be 2 litres low in oil before a Low Oil Warning light 

or message shows, and sometimes where a Low Oil Pressure light shows before the Low Oil Warning.

 

You want the correct quanity of oil in at the PDI or after a service, then you know where it is cold on the dipstick.

Very Sadly some that have been many years in the Motor Trade can not get that right.

Very Sadly Salespeople that have demo cars for 3,000 miles or 3 months not only dip and check the oil if a light does not show, 

they have not a clue what 'Area A, B or C means because 'They have been in the trade for years, 

& do not read owners manuals and know better anyway.

Edited 17 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

Luckily the current 1.2TSI engines seem to have an oil dip stick that can be believed if you dip it after the car has been stopped for 4 hours or even 24 hours, the BBY engine I seem to remember, and it sounds like the 3 cylinder old 1.2 engines, have a nasty habit of making the oil creep up the dip stick that much, so that if you take the dip stick out after 24 hours, the indicated oil level is maybe 10>15mm higher up the dip stick than the real current oil level in the sump - though "remove>wipe>replace>wait 5 minutes" takes care of that!

"Oil level creep" is not new and not a function of engine or dipstick design. Synthetic lubes are cunning little devils and have a good line in capillary action. Put some synthetic into a plastic bottle. Fit cap, invert botle, wipe clean the outside of bottle, stand bottle, (correct way up), for a couple of weeks or so and younwill probably see oil down the outsude seam. It actually wicks up the inner seam, through the closure and down the outside. Have witnessed it many times when responsible for oil packaging. No-one believes it until you demonstrate it on their office windowsill.

Personally, I think all this 'correct tem to check' is over the top and un-necessary. Adopt a sound standard approach and stick to it. 0.5mm on the dipstick is of no account. Why VW Group go to the lengths stated is a mystery...is there an official reason, or did they let some mad Herr Eng loose for an afternoon?

I agree what you have written about creep, I suppose that is what you get when you intend the oil to stay coating the moving parts when the engine has stopped. The magnitude of "oil getting moved" up the dip stick of the engine while it was stopped running that I was talking about would have emptied a full bottle overnight in the experiment you mentioned. I think that most of it will be due to something else, like heat soak causing the gases in the crankcase applying slight pressure to the oil in the dip tube - enough to lift it by maybe 10>30mm from what it would have been if it stuck with reflecting the actual oil level in the sump on the other side of that dip tube.

?

Are you a Mechanic or Technician working servicing cars in the Motor Trade?

 

Very true if you are talking UK / Europe or some World Regions, but then you get differences above sea level, 

Ambient Temperatures then Oil Capacities in engines that can vary from 2.8 Litres in some to 4.8 litres in others.

 

In a 1.4 TSI Twincharger the difference can be 0.5 litres in an engine with a oil capacity of 3.6 litres and a pretty crap Dip stick so the dipstick looks right & the oil level can show above area B, or in Area A.

So a Service is done and the customer has a car which should have 3.6 litres, many get 4 litres, 

and some end up just with 3.1 litres or so in.

(Customers trust technicians, and few dip oil when collecting a car, they only check some time later and think it used oil, 

maybe not enough was put in, sometimes too much and the engine is using oil.)

 

People who have worked in the motor trade and know that the difference is negligable have different beliefs from others that have worked 

in the motor trade as mechanics or technicians and pay enough attention to different engines to know how important it is.

 

Especially with VW Group engines with like 3.6 litre capacity and which can be 2 litres low in oil before a Low Oil Warning light 

or message shows, and sometimes where a Low Oil Pressure light shows before the Low Oil Warning.

 

You want the correct quanity of oil in at the PDI or after a service, then you know where it is cold on the dipstick.

Very Sadly some that have been many years in the Motor Trade can not get that right.

Very Sadly Salespeople that have demo cars for 3,000 miles or 3 months not only dip and check the oil if a light does not show, 

they have not a clue what 'Area A, B or C means because 'They have been in the trade for years, 

& do not read owners manuals and know better anyway.

Without sounding big headed I am a technician yes. I am a senior technician trained by three major motor manufacturers and an MOT tester. Been working with and on cars since I could walk.

I agree what you have written about creep, I suppose that is what you get when you intend the oil to stay coating the moving parts when the engine has stopped. The magnitude of "oil getting moved" up the dip stick of the engine while it was stopped running that I was talking about would have emptied a full bottle overnight in the experiment you mentioned. I think that most of it will be due to something else, like heat soak causing the gases in the crankcase applying slight pressure to the oil in the dip tube - enough to lift it by maybe 10>30mm from what it would have been if it stuck with reflecting the actual oil level in the sump on the other side of that dip tube.

The creep/wicking I described happens over weeks, not overnight.

It is not big headed to say big headed to say what your job and training is, because too many that have worked years in the motor trade in sales, parts desks and Service Desks still do not know their arse from their elbow and mis-inform and cause issues that never need arise.

 

As do Factory Trained Technicians and Workshop Managers that allow Fitters and other Technicians that havevbeen years in the motor trade or just days or weeks to over inflate tyres at PDI's, over fill oil at services or underfil and all the other things that have gone on for many years.

 

I also have been into bikes and cars since school, served my time as a Motor Engineer and then as a Car Sprayer.

So that is over 4 decades buying, selling and repairing and seeing many Dealerships and Motor Groups.

Lots of Motor Trade Employees as well.

 

...

 Will maybe log this for a bit longer on arrival back home this evening, to get a feel for the maximum level attained.

 

I did this but forgot to update.

 

Here's the slightly surprising result.  If you look at the raw data here and graph below (time in seconds on x-axis), the oil level in the sump returns to within a millimetre of cold starting level within less than 30 seconds of shutdown. That's much faster than I would've expected,  Possibly after a longer journey where the oil got even warmer, it would be faster still.

 

 

 

So any major strangeness of reading - hot versus cold, soon after shutdown versus minutes later etc. has little or nothing to do with the actual oil level in the sump, according to these data.

If you have VCDS, using the sensor built into your sump (assuming low-level detection exists on your car) may be the more accurate way of measuring oil level, doing away with dipstick/tube-related variables.

Edited 18 July, 20169 yr by Wino

?

Can you remind us, 

what VW engine that is, what oil it runs, what capacity and where is the Oil Filter, up top or down low?

1.4 16V BBY-code Quantum 5W40 Platinum, about 3L capacity, oil filter on the side of the block horizontally oriented. Haven't got time to google image it for you.

The creep/wicking I described happens over weeks, not overnight.

 

Yes I do get that, but I was just exaggerating a bit to show the difference from what you were describing and what I was saying actually happens on the BBY (and some other) VAG engines wrt what happens to the dip stick oil level over time.

?

Can you remind us, 

what VW engine that is, what oil it runs, what capacity and where is the Oil Filter, up top or down low?

 

Just one other comment on oil level measurement, if I have not said it before, some Audi engines do not have dip sticks (though the dip tube still exists and is capped with a removable plug), just an "oil level gauge" function in the MMI (display), so, what a few owners that look after their cars do is, buy a dipstick - I did that before buying my car. The way that the MMI information is given to you is:- "so you want to know the oil level?" > start engine and run it for over 5 minutes > stop engine > wait 10 minutes(or maybe 5 minutes) > check level on MMI - for a few people that does not seem like the best plan if you are about to set off on a long journey. Another thing is, quite often you get rewarded by "no data available"(or something like that) - or if you are half witted, you check it with the engine running and get a low reading so being half witted you throw in another litre of oil.

 

I'd love to believe what VCDS was telling Wino and that it genuinely reflects the actual level of oil in the sump as it makes checking oil so easy and quick, but my experience of how Audi suggest you use the oil level data, does lead me to believe that VAG is a bit more reserved about how this collected oil level data is used.

 

Edit:- I fully understand why there is a need to run the engine for a certain length of time as these oil level "checkers" are, or were, just heated strips so you needed them to be stable and the oil to be at a stable(ish) temperature - or maybe the type that Audi now use are different - though if so, why can't they give you a "pre-drive" oil level? (or be smart enough to log and hold the previous stopped oil level?)

Edited 18 July, 20169 yr by rum4mo

VW is a Global Brand and unbelievably take something that should be simple and complicate,

they do not only have translation issues from German, Czech or Spanish to British English bit also US English, 

even variations from Written to Video.

Then Print Errors, Metric Measurements etc.

 

(Cold only 44 kw engine). Warm, Hot, Normal Operating Temperature, Wait a few minutes. etc 

 

Dip Cold, do not confuse Petrol & Diesel & clearly name engine types and confusion would be less.

It is not stupidity from owners it is manufacturer manufactured errors.

 

Edited 18 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

@ rum4mo.

I believe the type used in my car, and widely across the group, uses an ultrasonic level measurement technology

Re Engine Sensors.

 

'Simply Clever'.   Simply Fundamental Design and component choices failures more like.

Same dip stick used in sumps with engines oil capacity from 2.8, 3.2, 3.6. 3.9, 4.2 litre capacity.

(cheapo stamped cross hatching, and bad images of them in Owners Manuals, and errors in 'How to' Area A, B, C, 

Translations to English such as, May, Must etc )

 

Fit a VW Engine with 3.6 litre engine oil capacity 1390cc Petrol Engine 132-136 kW min and they can be low by 2 litres and no 'Low Oil Warning' light or message shows, 

& a Low Oil Pressure light might show before the low oil.

Edited 18 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

@ rum4mo.

I believe the type used in my car, and widely across the group, uses an ultrasonic level measurement technology

 

So maybe there are two different oil level sensors in these engines, I was not aware about VCDS being able to check oil level - as opposed to "low oil warning", but I do know (I think), that the oil level warning sensor fitted to my old 2000 B8 Passat with the APR engine and wife's old 2003 9N Polo with the BBY engine - was just a couple of heated strips, if both strips were at the same temperature, oil level was okay, if one strip was hotter that meant it was not covered by the oil, so the low oil warning signal was set. Today I deliberately took my 2011 S4 out for a run, 5 minutes after stopping with a hot engine, the MMI showed an oil level of roughly 5/8 up the scale, after 10 minutes it was a bit more, maybe say 3/4 up the scale, I checked it again after 20 minutes and it was fully up to the MAX level on the scale - the dip stick, by the way was bang on the top of the hatched zone. I'm just adding this comment to let other see how long it can take for the oil to settle back down to its highest level in the sump after running the engine for maybe 30 minutes/15 miles.

How did you discover about these heated strips? Cut-down of a sensor?

The sensor in your old Passat seems to be the same part number with different suffix (B rather than C) than the one in the two Polos, but google images look v. similar for both. Honestly not sure where I got the notion of it being ultrasonic, but I'd've thought heated strips would struggle to resolve small level differences in variable-temperature fluid (such as I'm reading with VCDS)?

 

Any idea how your 5/8-full MMI reading looks on the dipstick? I can't see why much oil would linger outside/above the sump once the pump stops anti-gravitying it. It's pretty runny when hot, and the return holes in the head are pretty gaping generally? What does MMI stand for BTW?

 

Interesting image in this listing. That does look like something that's maybe measuring the resistance of PCB tracks above/below oil level? Two different geometry tracks to be able to cancel out the thermal changes? Bit hard to see in the pic though. Or.. is that a coil made on a slotted PCB, and the measurement is magnetic permeability diffs between oil and air in that slot?

 

Bedtime.

Edited 18 July, 20169 yr by Wino

Wino, in answer to "where did you find out about oil level sensor just being two heated strips(with temperature measurement built in" - I can't remember it is too long ago, probably prompted by some people having spurious low oil warnings and the general idea was that it was due to a faulty low oil warning device - which went on to describe its operation - ie nothing VAG official though as usual, if it sounds okay and makes sense it gets locked into your brain!  I did not know that these cars handed out actual oil level info, that seems a bit OTT. Certainly both the B5 Passat and 9N Polo sump mounted hardware looked the same, S4 has a flattish sump metal base (which can rust nicely), so I think its sensor will be mounted on the cast base of the engine.

 

Next, what did 5/8 full look like on dip stick:- sorry I can't say, I need to start looking into this the next time I have it out for a run. Normally car makers, including VAG "slug" displayed information to make it look a bit better, so maybe the display lags behind the dip stick level - time will tell.

 

MMI = Multi Media Infotainment(maybe) - ie the radio and car settings big display, I'm probably wrong with that MMI, it is probably just AIS or something, MMI's poor relation (Audi Infotainment System).