Hello all.

Just a quick question.

The manual states,

"Check and refill oil under the following conditions...the engine operating temperature is reached." - P141

A search of the maunal (using the search function of the application I'm using) has the term 'engine operating temperature' only repeated in one other place, page 40, when stating the optimum coolant temperature (70 - 120 °C).

The thing is, depending on the conditions outside, the coolant can heat up a lot faster than the oil. I've seen my coolant get too 90° (where it always sits) while the oil is only just registering at 50°. So does anyone know the optimum oil temperature for checking? And also how long to leave the vehicle afterwards.

Was hoping to check it all tonight as it's going in for its 6 week check tomorrow with Arnold Clark and wanted to be armed with all the info I could be, cause if its low, it's their fault and can get them to top it up (though I doubt it is, oil temp always rests at about 85 - 95° if I'm not horsing it, which the Internet indicates is normal).

Thanks,

Alexandros.

You are going to probably cover 5 miles in the summer before your oil gets to between 50-80*oC, 

but operating temperature will be OK for a Hot Check by 10 miles.

 

Just compare the Cold Dip on the flat, and a hot 'operating temp' check after a bit of a trip.

It is important to know the oil before a journey.

 

Did Arnold Clark's not give you a Free Bottle of 5w 30 Full Synthetic Long Life oil?

Do not rely on them, they mostly check warm, car ticking over a few minutes and then dip.

Not taking a car for a road test.

 

??

Have you not checked it in 6 weeks, like when you got the car before ragging it, ?

checked cold, or at any temp is better than no check, or waiting for a 'Low Oil' warning.

Edited 6 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

With my Fabia during the summer ( today ) the water temperature & oil temperature goes:-

After 1 mile water at 80C oil at 50C.

After 2 miles water 90C oil at 75C.

After 3 miles water 90C oil at 100C.

The colder the air temperature the longer it takes to warm up.

 

Thanks AC Falco.

Lovely, maybe saying what your Ambient Temperature in the south was today would have given even more assistance.

 

PS

Neither of you have said which engines you have, diesel or petrol.

 

100*oC Indicated Oil temp in 3 miles is kind of high.

Well unless it is a very warm day then the Coolant & Oil temperatures are higher likely before you even start the engine.

(maybe less so in Scotland where there can be a ground frost even in Summer.)

Edited 6 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

Lovely, maybe saying what your Ambient Temperature in the south was today would have given even more assistance.

PS

Neither of you have said which engines you have, diesel or petrol.

100*oC Indicated Oil temp in 3 miles is kind of high.

Well unless it is a very warm day then the Coolant & Oil temperatures are higher likely before you even start the engine.

(maybe less so in Scotland where there can be a ground frost even in Summer.)

Thanks for the advice, will give it a check this evening (though will only be a cold check, not going to have time to take it out long enough to warm up, just 2 minute drive home from work). Will try and do a warm check before it goes in tomorrow.

My engine is the 1.2 TSI, 110PS. I'm haven't checked millage for it warming up but seems to do so quite quickly.

This will be my first time checking oil. I've had to teach myself all the different stuff from scratch so just taking it slow. Know how too do my tires now (got myself a wee Gauge with release value so can get it bang on) and moving onto my oil and coolent. Only thing I've been shown how too do properly is clean the car, keeping it nice and shiny!

Sorry here is North Dorset UK

 

19C Ambiant air temperature this morning.

1.2 petrol engine left unused since yesterday.

Oil temperature will be around 100C once warmed up.

More than 100C if it is working hard /going fast.

Less than 100C if it is not.

 

My previous car with a 1.4 Diesel would take 3 miles to get the water temperature up to 90C.

So the Fabia will be a joy to drive during the cold winter starts, especially with the heated seats.

 

Thanks AG Falco.

Since you are a mechanic you must know that is hot for a 1.2 TSI and not efficient as an oil temp.

It takes energy to keep cooling the engine down to nearer the 92*0C.

 

Maybe once you change that Oil fitted at the factory for better stuff you will get a lower normal oil temp and better fuel economy.

Their Factory oil is garbage. But then the Recommended Castrol or Quantum is no better, being the same.

100°c oil temp is normal in turbocharged petrol engines.

Really, all of them? 

I think not, actually i know not.

I have a feeling that if you look up the thermal expansivity of engine oil, and look at the shape of the sump, you'll find that the exact measurement  temperature within a range of say 50-120C makes minimal difference to the indicated level.

If you put a litre of engine oil (857 grams) in a pan, or even 4 litres and heat it from 15*oC up to 120*oC there is almost no change in the volume.

 

If you dip Stone Cold the oil is a bit higher up the dipstick with all oil in the sump. 

than when you 'Check after a few minutes after stopping from operating temp',   simple really, all the oil is not in the sump, 

some still around the engine, Filter housing, a block.

Minimum amount, but it is easy to check,  dip cold. dip hot. there is not more oil up the dipstick hot.

 

When you are only talking 3.6, or 3.9 or 4.2 litres in small engines it is a shame VW have such crap dipsticks.

They say only the 44kw engines should be checked cold.

People often want to know there is enough oil in before heading off somewhere.

 

It is handy if the Oil is up to temp so quick on a 1.2 TSI.

Edited 6 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

Yes it does seem hot for the oil to run at about 100C.

Never had a car with an oil temperature readout. before.

I have only run Diesels since 1993.

I have always used Mobil Formula 1 engine oil.

 

Thanks AG Falco.

But George, the OP's not asking if he should dip cold or hot; he's asking for an exact oil temp. I'm suggesting, and I think you might agree, the exact warmth/hotness is probably less relevant than time after shutdown?

VW say operating temperature for Oil checks. and for the same engines Skoda translated that to 'warm'.

The cause of many mis understanding. 

AS DOES SAYING WAIT A 'FEW MINUTES'  it is only a few, but what ever it should be a consistent time,

VW / Skoda said at fuel stops, well fuel stops are minutes, and at the end of a trip people can maybe not be bothered checking cars oil.  Before heading back they might check a cold engine. Maybe want to top up oil in a new cars engine.

It is important not to overfill.

 

Then they tell which are dipped cold.

Just check cold when you collect a car, see where the Technician or Fitter had the level, 

then do a Hot Check when the oil is above 50*oC, preferable nearer 80*oc,  compare then you know.

(you hope they did it correctly, often they overfill.)

 

 

this is how oil consumption tests were done.

& on the right a Technician never knew the weight of oil, so could you even trust how much oil was put in.

Edited 6 July, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

If you put a litre of engine oil (857 grams) in a pan, or even 4 litres and heat it from 15*oC up to 120*oC there is almost no change in the volume.

 

If you dip Stone Cold the oil is a bit higher up the dipstick with all oil in the sump. 

than when you 'Check after a few minutes after stopping from operating temp',   simple really, all the oil is not in the sump, 

some still around the engine, Filter housing, a block.

Minimum amount, but it is easy to check,  dip cold. dip hot. there is not more oil up the dipstick hot.

 

When you are only talking 3.6, or 3.9 or 4.2 litres in small engines it is a shame VW have such crap dipsticks.

They say only the 44kw engines should be checked cold.

People often want to know there is enough oil in before heading off somewhere.

 

It is handy if the Oil is up to temp so quick on a 1.2 TSI.

  

But George, the OP's not asking if he should dip cold or hot; he's asking for an exact oil temp. I'm suggesting, and I think you might agree, the exact warmth/hotness is probably less relevant than time after shutdown?

Ok, I'll tell you guys my plan and see if you agree.

I have parked on the flattest possible part of my driveway (most of it leans downwards). Tomorrow I will check it around 9am, along with coolant & brake fluid levels and tire pressure. I will then drive the vehicle non stop until it reaches 90° coolant readout and 90°ish oil readout. I'll then find a flat, quite car park (have a place in mind), switch off the engine and time 5 minutes, before getting out and checking it all again.

Will this be acceptable? I know it's probably OTT but I'm not bothered about that. I just want to know if this will give me accurate readings, what I should be looking out for and anything I may have missed?

Thanks,

Alexandros.

Good plan.

Above and beyond the call of duty.

 

Watch those 'Fully Trained Arnold Clark Technicians'  it is nice that they are doing a 6 week check for you.

Just be sure they do not overfill the oil or the Coolant up to MAX. 

& if they check and adjust the tyre pressures, check and adjust later your self, or just ask what they set them to.

Above and beyond the call of duty.

 

Watch those 'Fully Trained Arnold Clark Technicians'  it is nice that they are doing a 6 week check for you.

Just be sure they do not overfill the oil or the Coolant up to MAX. 

& if they check and adjust the tyre pressures, check and adjust later your self, or just ask what they set them to.

Thanks for advice.

If they do fill the coolent or oil up to MAX, what should I do? I don't know how to or have the facilities to drain it myself, you see. Any thoughts?

Some data from a log I did this morning using VCDS on my BBY-code 1.4 petrol Polo here.  (Raw data on one sheet, graph of oil level, oil temp, coolant temp and rpm/100 on the other sheet).  Not directly relevant as different engine, but possibly interesting to some. 

 

Observations: Cold (14°C) oil level as measured by sump level sensor on drive at home 54mm. On arrival at parking spot at work, maybe just a tad more downhill-sloping, after a minute or so idling, engine still running, oil temp 72°C, level = 51mm.

Within 60 seconds of switch off level was at 54mm (log doesn't show this as VCDS stops chatting at ignition off, but I reconnected and watched it for another 5 minutes). From there the level crept up to 54.5mm for the next 3 minutes, reaching 55mm after 5 minutes.  Got bored of watching after that.

 

Graph with time in seconds on x-axis:

 

 

Lunchbreak update:  Oil level as measured by onboard sensor/VCDS now 53.5mm, @ 27°C

 

 

That suggests the slope of the parking space may be responsible for a half-millimetre difference in oil level compared with driveway at home, and that oil level in the sump as measured by that sensor varies very little with oil temperature.  A small amount of thermal expansion was seen in the observations of the 5 minutes after morning shutdown. Will maybe log this for a bit longer on arrival back home this evening, to get a feel for the maximum level attained.

Edited 7 July, 20169 yr by Wino

Luckily the current 1.2TSI engines seem to have an oil dip stick that can be believed if you dip it after the car has been stopped for 4 hours or even 24 hours, the BBY engine I seem to remember, and it sounds like the 3 cylinder old 1.2 engines, have a nasty habit of making the oil creep up the dip stick that much, so that if you take the dip stick out after 24 hours, the indicated oil level is maybe 10>15mm higher up the dip stick than the real current oil level in the sump - though "remove>wipe>replace>wait 5 minutes" takes care of that!

Isn't it normal to always remove/wipe/replace - wait five seconds/remove/read? Never had any trouble with that approach on any car/engine.  If you try to read the level repeatedly on ones with long contorted dipstick tubes, you can run into confusion, IME.

Edited 7 July, 20169 yr by Wino

True, but there is a definate difference in how these two engines behave wrt the dipstick - and in the far past it has been said that some people having come from cars where you could just check the level of the dipstick, have come unstuck when moving on to a car with that "issue" and so running with too low an oil level.

 

I've been around cars/tractors for maybe 50 years and that BBY engine Polo was the first time I had come across that "oil level creep" - and I was not the only one. Actually another first for me was looking after a car that needing topping up frequently, that was also a VW though one with an Audi engine in it!

Going back to these engines heating up- the newer VW Group engines have a different coolant circuit that supposedly helps the engine heat up really quickly. IIRC there is a separate cooling circuit, which is the only one to be used initially, which circulates around the exhaust manifold and the head, to warm the head up first, before bringing in rest of it acting as a cooling system, rather than scavenging heat from the exhaust manifold.

 

You can certainly see the temperature gauge on mine climbing pretty quickly once you've set off, especially if it's not quite cooled down from before.

Yes, is there not three sections to achieve quick warm up.(as well as the radiator) If I'm being in super efficient mode, I switch the cabin fan off for the first couple of miles in winter - that makes a huge difference to when the temperature gauge first reaches the 90C mark!

Edited 7 July, 20169 yr by rum4mo

The only issue with that one is fogging up in the cold!