1.2 TSI 110 sounds

[Guest]

Then it's probably just your clutch control that's not quite right during this time you are getting used to it. It shouldn't bog down even at 1000rpm unless the clutch control is not quite right. The variable engine revs you describe may be due to the engine management system trying to deal with other demands the alternator is having to deal with, especially if you are doing short trips where the battery is not charging as much. Good luck with your new car...and let us all know how you are getting on with it. 

[rum4mo]

I'm still trying to find out when, after a cold start, hill hold starts operating, as when I reverse out of the garage and wait, on a slope just clear of the garage while my wife closes and locks the garage door, 8 times out of 10 hill hold has not be active - this becomes obvious when taking foot of the brake!

 

Edit:- I meant to write "when taking foot of brake and on to throttle pedal when moving away."

Edited 11 November, 2016 by rum4mo

[ettlz]

Then it's probably just your clutch control that's not quite right during this time you are getting used to it. It shouldn't bog down even at 1000rpm unless the clutch control is not quite right. The variable engine revs you describe may be due to the engine management system trying to deal with other demands the alternator is having to deal with, especially if you are doing short trips where the battery is not charging as much. Good luck with your new car...and let us all know how you are getting on with it. 

 

I've just seen the torque curve for the 1.2 TSI 110: 93Nm to 175Nm in the space of 1000rpm to 1400rpm, so 0.21Nm/rpm. That's very steep compared to that of the Citigo's 1.0 MPI engine: 78Nm to 95Nm in 1000rpm to 3000rpm -- i.e. 0.0085Nm/rpm. (Yeah I know, I'm overthinking the numbers, but I used to be a physicist -- indulge me.) So no wonder it feels sensitive in that region, any slight dip in revs from letting out the clutch results in a big reduction in torque, which leads to loss of more revs... I will have to ponder more on how to best handle this for good mechanical sympathy. Personally I'm not a big fan of getting going or manoeuvering 'on idle', at least not with an engine this new.

 

Of course mixed up in all this are potentially different ideas of what constitutes a "smooth" launch. From all that advanced driving stuff I tend to be pretty strict on smoothness.

 

I did take it to the dealership and the technician there seemed happy with how it was performing. So for now the process of re-training my legs continues.

 

johnh50 -- this 'dry tappets' noise, is it a sort of dull, almost-scraping 'old engine' sound?

Edited 11 November, 2016 by ettlz

[johnh510]

 

 

johnh50 -- this 'dry tappets' noise, is it a sort of dull, almost-scraping 'old engine' sound?

 

A sort of "tack-tack-tack-tack-tack........." is the best way I can describe it, quite loud, stops after a second or two.

 

Sort of straying into old taxi/Simca from a lifetime ago kind of noise. The irritating thing is on the occasions I decide to record it, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen that often.

 

When the car has local use, or lower speed runs, it never happens.

A few hours at 70 mph, it might well do it the following morning despite being driven at low speeds for an hour before stopping.

 

I understand it the noise happens until the oil pressure gets to the self adjusting tappets (which sometimes drain of oil). I also understand it does no harm - or at least that's the official view.

 

 

My opinions/understandings may be incorrect.

 

------

 

edit: removed link to incorrect engine below.

Edited 12 November, 2016 by johnh510

[Guest]

john, you may want to try parking the car after a hot run with the nose pointing up a slop. Leave overnight or for several hours and I guarantee it will rattle/knock. Be ready to film it. Please post back with your results. I currently have the same issue and mine performs the rattle/knock everytime when parked nose up a slope.

[fuelpump]

I find it amazing that nobody can give a satisfactory answer to this noise. Nothing new about hydraulic tappets and i have driven plenty and never had this issue. I do not accept that mechanical noise caused by low oil pressure is ever harmless. Recently I have paused with ignition on and waited for the fuel pump to stop then started the engine which then starts without the tap tap tap but judging by other posts there seems to be so many variables. have never had any buzzing noise.  

[johnh510]

john, you may want to try parking the car after a hot run with the nose pointing up a slop. Leave overnight or for several hours and I guarantee it will rattle/knock. Be ready to film it. Please post back with your results. I currently have the same issue and mine performs the rattle/knock everytime when parked nose up a slope.

 

That's an interesting observation - the first time it did it was "nose up" in a car park.

 

At home is level.

 

It'll be a week or more before I get the chance to see how it behaves on a slope.

 

Will post back, eventually.

 

J

[Guest]

I don't think john is describing hydraulic tappet noise. He is describing the cam running against dry buckets, and I agree that is cause for concern. It usually means oil is draining out of the camshaft timing adjuster and that causes a lag in lubrication to the camshaft lobes. The hydraulic tappets make a huge noise when they deflate and you know all about it. Also, they rarely deflate overnight, but usually after a few days of standing. If one of them is faulty you just hear that one. I have the same issue but with added big end noise. I believe my oil pressure relief valve is faulty.

 

Sorry to the OP for sidetracking his thread. 

[Guest]

John, I've personal messaged you! Take a look if you will.

[ettlz]

Sorry to the OP for sidetracking his thread. 

 

Not at all -- provoking a discussion on the 1.2 TSI's quirks and what to expect for new owners is pretty much what I intended.

 

For some reason they don't tell you about these things in the manual

Edited 12 November, 2016 by ettlz

[ettlz]

The TSI seems to be all or nothing, with no subtlety in between. Perhaps the incremental step/granularity is too coarse in giving more fuel on pressing the (fly by wire?) pedal.

 

Seems we're not the only ones who find this, others with the Polo claim to find it challenging to move off smoothly too: http://www.uk-polos.net/viewtopic.php?t=67031 (although I've never had any lag or bogging down once the vehicle is rolling).

Edited 12 November, 2016 by ettlz

[johnh510]

John, I've personal messaged you! Take a look if you will.

 

1000+ miles on, did it once after a 150 miles of motorway and parked slightly nose up, left for a couple of hours.

 

Sadly it was tipping it down with rain, so I wasn't recording it.

 

It has it's first service tomorrow - will see if it does it again. May not, as it is much less frequent now it is properly run in.

 

 

Will report back if I manage to capture the clatter.

[Guest]

Thanks John. Mine is still doing it after being parked nose up on a slope after a hot run. I've got Skoda investigating at the moment. I'll try and post my video of the noise soon. 

[ettlz]

Mine makes an odd "rocking" noise when hot, most audible at idle. Hard to describe, it's not a harsh knocking but it's definitely not refined or classy. Comes and goes without any electrical load, but pretty consistent with (e.g. lights or fan). Also get the occasional slight dip in idle revs with a wibble that cab be felt in the cabin every 5-10 seconds at idle. (I'm used to vibes from the Citigo's 3-cyl, but not from the otherwise smooth 1.2 TSI...) Booked in for investigation later.

Edited 23 November, 2016 by ettlz

[rum4mo]

I feel that VW group have forgotten about NVH when designing engines, all other things are important, but if you also take care of NVH then customers have less to complain/worry about.

 

It is not just each engine's NVH being okay, it is also about each engine type in each installation type!

[glosrich]

VW have never made particularly great engines. They have a habit of making us test new tech, then when it fails, move on to something else, and then leave us with engine problems out of warranty.

 

However for the price point of the Fabia and octavia the engines are acceptable. I think some of you  are worrying unnecessarily about every little noise. As long as the oil is clean and topped up, just drive it.

 

If you want a well engineered engine, then look at a Honda engine, reliable and quiet. Ok they have taken a long time to get into small petrol turbos, only just happening now, but thats because they have developed it thoroughly, so we don't have any problems.

[rum4mo]

Agreed, these engines, as far as noises are concerned, maybe sound a bit Russian - maybe that is where VW group is heading towards.

 

Remember this engine ends up in VWs as well with a car price tag of £20K easily in the case of Polo - though you do get a bit more sound insulation in some Polos, Honda's Jazz is £17K for equivalent package/model

[Ootohere]

They are in £20,000 plus Yeti. 

But it looks like the 1.2TSI days are numbered as Skoda drop them as models get a Face Lift and a 1.0TSI instead.

[Guest]

Yes the TSI 1.2  90/110ps engine is in all sorts of VAG cars. It powers the Skoda Fabia, Rapid, Yeti, Octavia, and then the Golfs, Polos, Jetta, and the Seat and Audi range. It's a common engine and very good too. Already the 1.0ltr turbo motor is available in the Polo and probably in some other models. But the 1.2TSI, like all modern low friction engines it is mechanically noisy when cold. As it warms it gets quieter. It's pretty bullet proof actually with some taxi guys covering huge mileages in just a couple of years on this new engine. I'm wondering if VAG will keep the 4 cylinder unit for some of the higher end models such as the Audi's? It's a much smoother unit than the 3 cylinder turbo unit and lasts longer! At least VAG hasn't had the issues that Ford did with their 1.0 eco boost turbo engines. Ford is very well known to do much of it's testing on the public, and I have experienced that myself. 

Edited 23 November, 2016 by Estate Man

[johnh510]

It's interesting that you find the process of setting off smoothly a challenge too: I had thought it was just me.

 

I occasionally drive my other half’s 1.2 TSI 90 Fabia iii, and find it very different to my 1.2 HTP Fabia ii  - in which I can set off in a controlled manner every time, gently or quickly or anywhere in between.

 

The TSI seems to be all or nothing, with no subtlety in between. Perhaps the incremental step/granularity is too coarse in giving more fuel on pressing the (fly by wire?) pedal.

 

 

It's probably a bit non-u to reply to your own posts, but..

 

the other half's 1.2TSI 90 Fabia iii had its first service today (9400 miles/15000 km oil service).

 

I don't know what they've done to it - nothing was said about the issue I have with setting off - but it's far better post service than I've ever known it to be, and it's not just me getting used to driving it as I've driven most of the 1k miles it has done in the past week or two, and I drove my Fabia ii in between taking the Fabia iii to the garage and back home again.

 

It might just be "shiny clean car syndrome*", but I think it is better - probably less "turbo lag" too - and not just the effect of a clean and valet, oil, filter, and visual inspection.

 

Time will tell if the impression of improvement is persistent.

 

 

Any of the Skoda technical people on here have any ideas? ....

 

a quick google finds

"a TPI for the turbo actuator on the belt driven 1.2 tsi for the turbo actuator sticking due to corrosion between it and the wastegate rod"

perhaps?

 

-------

 

* a shiny car is always a nicer drive than a dirty one.

[rum4mo]

They are in £20,000 plus Yeti. 

But it looks like the 1.2TSI days are numbered as Skoda drop them as models get a Face Lift and a 1.0TSI instead.

 

Yes but I was commenting on that in respect of the earlier poster saying these engines suit that price bracket of car, if you wanted better get a Honda - and I was pointing out the price of a Honda Jazz compared with a VW Polo with that engine.

[rum4mo]

Yes the TSI 1.2  90/110ps engine is in all sorts of VAG cars. It powers the Skoda Fabia, Rapid, Yeti, Octavia, and then the Golfs, Polos, Jetta, and the Seat and Audi range. It's a common engine and very good too. Already the 1.0ltr turbo motor is available in the Polo and probably in some other models. But the 1.2TSI, like all modern low friction engines it is mechanically noisy when cold. As it warms it gets quieter. It's pretty bullet proof actually with some taxi guys covering huge mileages in just a couple of years on this new engine. I'm wondering if VAG will keep the 4 cylinder unit for some of the higher end models such as the Audi's? It's a much smoother unit than the 3 cylinder turbo unit and lasts longer! At least VAG hasn't had the issues that Ford did with their 1.0 eco boost turbo engines. Ford is very well known to do much of it's testing on the public, and I have experienced that myself. 

 

I was not aware that Audi used these 1.2TSI engines, normally A1 starts at 1.4TSI.   I've said it before, back in April 2015, my VW dealer said the production build of Polos fitted with the 1.2TSI 110 engines would have ended by the time my wife's factory ordered car went into build in July 2015, luckily that did not happen.

[Ootohere]

2010-2014 most Audi A1 sold in the UK were 1.2 TSI, more than the 1.4 TSI's so it was not really normally A1 starts at 1.4TSI.

[ettlz]

the other half's 1.2TSI 90 Fabia iii had its first service today (9400 miles/15000 km oil service).

 

I don't know what they've done to it - nothing was said about the issue I have with setting off - but it's far better post service than I've ever known it to be, and it's not just me getting used to driving it as I've driven most of the 1k miles it has done in the past week or two, and I drove my Fabia ii in between taking the Fabia iii to the garage and back home again.

 

Does your other half have the setting off issue?

Edited 24 November, 2016 by ettlz

[Guest]

2010-2014 most Audi A1 sold in the UK were 1.2 TSI, more than the 1.4 TSI's so it was not really normally A1 starts at 1.4TSI.

 

The A1 now comes with the 3 cylinder 110ps TSI as the starter engine. They have dropped the chain driven cam 1.2TSI which, as you rightly say went in before 2014. In fact, although the 3 cyl unit is less refined than the belt driven 110ps TSI four cylinder unit, it does have notably more torque than our 1.2 110ps TSI four cylinder unit @ 200nm at 2k rpm. Not bad for a little un!