Hi Guys,

 

I need some advice, I drive a Skoda Octavia Elegance 2010 2.0 Tdi

 

In a nutshell, the sump needed replacing, did that and drove for 10 mins, now engine needs replacing.

 

I’ll tell you the full story. A couple of weeks I was driving and all of a sudden had the red oil lamp light on, I pulled up and checked my oil. It was running really low. The nearest petrol pump was 5mins away, so I spun the car round and probably drove 50 yards. The car started to lose power, before it did, I pulled up to the left and had RAC come out. He toed it to the garage. The mechanic said there is a great big hole in the sump and basically oil has leaked, this will need replacing. I managed to find one for £60 second hand & had it fitted.

 

In terms of sump damage, I’m not sure how this happened, as id not hit anything, apart from going over a few speed bumps at 30/40mph. I suspect that still shouldn’t have clipped the sump to cause a hole? Id have to do 60+. The Skoda is very sturdy and manages bumps very well. I suspect there was some leakage before hand and now its managed to expand, any thoughts?

 

Anyway, before getting the car back the mechanic took it for a spin for about 10mins and confirmed the car was in perfect working condition. When I got the car from him, I drove for about ½ hour and all of a sudden heard the ‘low on oil’ noise.. I managed to check the oil on a flat surface, to find it was very low on oil. I called my mechanic, he told me to drive down to his garage.. by the time I got near his garage, the car stopped on me.. presumably because of no oil. I then got it toed in.

 

He has now told me the engine needs replacing. I asked why this was, he said 1 of 2 reasons either 1) the damage to the car that caused the sump damage, in fact caused damage to the engine shaft (the bit that’s related to oil), but this could not be known at the time.  I reiterate, the only way I could have damaged it is by going over a speed bump, so is it possible for the Engine to get messed up because of driving over a speed bump? The engine is so much higher, also objects like the sump are in the way? Or  2) When the car first broke down, you tried driving it, as there was no oil, the engine was running dry so one the engine ceased. I told him, I literally turned around and there was still oil. Oil could be seen on the road and the toe truck when we got off. The second time oil was low, I delibereatly called him to get advice, he told me to drive down so I did. So it is possible the engine was damaged at this point. I was driving for a good 1/2hr continuous, there didnt seems like there was damage.

 

So I want to know whether this is possible and who is liable. As far as I’m concerned he affirmed that the car was in working order. Its possible that due to damage further damage has been caused but I was under his instruction.

 

So can you explain how, after the sump was replaced, it got very low on oil after 1/2 hr driving? Was there evidence of oil leaking out? I think this is the key to it. If the oil leaked out after the sump was replaced then I think you have a good claim on the garage. If the oil was very low without any signs of a leak then either the mechanic didn't put much oil in (seems unlikely) or the car burnt all the oil in 1/2 hr. also seems unlikely. If this last one then it will be hard to prove that it was the mechanic's fault, it might be as a result of the first time you ran out of oil. Did you notice any exhaust smoke?

As to how the sump was damaged in the first place, could it be a previous owner who damaged the sump and repaired it with some filler etc, which eventually failed?

I've had a Renault that managed to get a damaged sump which resulted in oil starvation. The sump wasn't cracked but dented enough to prevent the oil pump working correctly, no idea how it happened. The engine seized on that pretty quickly from the oil light coming. 

 

If you've holed the sump I would expect a lot oil to be sprayed on the underside of the car and road you'd driven on. Is there any evidence of this or have you seen the damaged sump? 

If you punch a hole in the sump and drive it til there's no oil left, expect damage to the internals of the engine which rely on oil for lubrication. The fact that you're denying having punched a hole in the sump is irrelevant, the hole was there and the oil departed.

 

Second time around, where has the oil gone after getting the car back? If it hasn't leaked out and there's no sign of leakage, then it's probably burnt it off due to piston ring damage following the first run out of oil scenario.

 

As regards who's responsible...

 

If you have written statements from the garage relating to everything you've stated, then there's a possibility that a sharp solicitor would be able to claim you some compensation. But that's a whole different issue to how the damage was initially caused and what happened to the engine.

So can you explain how, after the sump was replaced, it got very low on oil after 1/2 hr driving? Was there evidence of oil leaking out? I think this is the key to it. If the oil leaked out after the sump was replaced then I think you have a good claim on the garage. If the oil was very low without any signs of a leak then either the mechanic didn't put much oil in (seems unlikely) or the car burnt all the oil in 1/2 hr. also seems unlikely. If this last one then it will be hard to prove that it was the mechanic's fault, it might be as a result of the first time you ran out of oil. Did you notice any exhaust smoke?

As to how the sump was damaged in the first place, could it be a previous owner who damaged the sump and repaired it with some filler etc, which eventually failed?

 

Im not sure.. as far as i know it was a simple replacement. Isnt it a cover under the oil tank? I never checked where the car was parked.. I sort of drove off. Well when i lifted the bonnet, the mechanics around the engine were covered in some oil.. so there was some sort of leak. He was saying, as a result of engine damage oil has not been able to flow around properly, and that engine damage was caused by me the first time round. Nope there was no smoke. Thats a possibility, i had the car for about a month. I should ahve requested him to show me the sump at the time to investigate but I just said scrap it. I might double check though.

 

 

 

I've had a Renault that managed to get a damaged sump which resulted in oil starvation. The sump wasn't cracked but dented enough to prevent the oil pump working correctly, no idea how it happened. The engine seized on that pretty quickly from the oil light coming. 

 

If you've holed the sump I would expect a lot oil to be sprayed on the underside of the car and road you'd driven on. Is there any evidence of this or have you seen the damaged sump? 

 

He explained to me over the phone that the reason why you were out of oil is the sump had a great big hole in it...

 

 

If you punch a hole in the sump and drive it til there's no oil left, expect damage to the internals of the engine which rely on oil for lubrication. The fact that you're denying having punched a hole in the sump is irrelevant, the hole was there and the oil departed.

 

Second time around, where has the oil gone after getting the car back? If it hasn't leaked out and there's no sign of leakage, then it's probably burnt it off due to piston ring damage following the first run out of oil scenario.

 

As regards who's responsible...

 

If you have written statements from the garage relating to everything you've stated, then there's a possibility that a sharp solicitor would be able to claim you some compensation. But that's a whole different issue to how the damage was initially caused and what happened to the engine.

 

 

There was some oil on the around the mechanics.. hmm thanks. I was thinking the only way forwarded would be through the courts. I dont have written statements, who does these days. But after forking out 150 for the repair, I asked for assurance, he said he actually drove it and back to check, the car was working in perfect order. But as time has gone by, oil must have leaked out whilst driving. The car has 200k on the clock and an engine costs £2k approx.

Sorry to hear about your situation. The first time round, as others have said, it doesn't really matter how / when the damage occurred (possibly previous owner). Clearly there was a problem and even driving briefly with an oil starvation issue "could" cause some damage, which manifests itself sooner or later. It would be impossible for the mechanic to give you a guarantee without stripping apart the engine and measuring tolerances, inspecting parts etc. Not feasible.

 

The second low oil experience does seem a bit curious. Was there a leak caused by fitting the replacement sump incorrectly. The sealant not applied correctly to the sump flange and mating surfaces which caused the oil to escape or not left to cure? In that case, if that is true, perhaps the mechanic has contributed to this. It certainly wasn't good advice to tell you to continue driving back to his workshop.

 

It will be very difficult now to tell if the damage was from oil low experience 1, which it seems is your problem and experience 2, which may have been contributed to by the mechanic depending on what you can find out. Although, again you drove the car in that condition.

 

Possibly try to talk through with Garage how the oil got so low in small amount of driving post repair 1 and why he asked you to drive back to garage with warning light on. Ask nicely if there is some way he can be nice to you with repair costs. It will be a lot more pleasant than trying to get all legal.

In view of all you've said, taking it through the Courts would doubtless involve much time and expense. You'd be required to prove he said what you say he said, and all he needs to do is say "No I didn't. This is what I said, you've misunderstood and paraphrased it to suit your argument." You could end up going through all that and have nothing to show for it..

 

Besides which, you have an engine which has covered 200k miles, and realistically if you won all he needs to do is replace your knackered engine with another which has covered 200k miles. That could end up with something as bad as the one you killed.

 

In light of what's been said, if it were me I'd just get an engine and have it dropped in, and carry on as before. Except make a concerted effort not to hit speed bumps and punch holes in the sump. If you're polite and work with the guy, he might feel obliged to keep the labour costs down for you.

Sorry to hear about your situation. The first time round, as others have said, it doesn't really matter how / when the damage occurred (possibly previous owner). Clearly there was a problem and even driving briefly with an oil starvation issue "could" cause some damage, which manifests itself sooner or later. It would be impossible for the mechanic to give you a guarantee without stripping apart the engine and measuring tolerances, inspecting parts etc. Not feasible.

 

The second low oil experience does seem a bit curious. Was there a leak caused by fitting the replacement sump incorrectly. The sealant not applied correctly to the sump flange and mating surfaces which caused the oil to escape or not left to cure? In that case, if that is true, perhaps the mechanic has contributed to this. It certainly wasn't good advice to tell you to continue driving back to his workshop.

 

It will be very difficult now to tell if the damage was from oil low experience 1, which it seems is your problem and experience 2, which may have been contributed to by the mechanic depending on what you can find out. Although, again you drove the car in that condition.

 

Possibly try to talk through with Garage how the oil got so low in small amount of driving post repair 1 and why he asked you to drive back to garage with warning light on. Ask nicely if there is some way he can be nice to you with repair costs. It will be a lot more pleasant than trying to get all legal.

 

 

Considering I was annoyed about paying £150 for damage I couldn't understand, I wanted some reassurance. Surely his word and driving of the car says something, even so.. if damage was still there. Cant I argue, do to your driving (on your own accord) the engine started to seaze?

 

I got in the car and left. Maybe there was some leakage. He didnt mention anything coming out from the bottom, so i assume the sump was fitted/sealed properly.. but problems further up in the car. Personally, I think when he gave the car back to me and I drove it for 1/2 hour the engine, as oil was being reduced, eventually ceased. Now i dont know if it was reasonably forseeable for him to know this. Should he have asked for full info of account (i explained everything to the dot) or with anything he noticed damaged to the sump and replaced, it was impossible for him to know about engine damage.

I suspect the original damage to the sump was caused by you going over speed bumps at 30/40mph! id never go over a speed bump at that sort of speed,the fact that you drove to the garage after the low oil warning alerting you & you checking the oil level to find it very low may have caused some damage to the engine internals,however the fact that the mechanic replaced the sump & told you the car was all repaired & seemed ok yet not long after the engine seized due to no oil in it suggests that the engine still had a serious leak or the mechanic had not sealed the sump up correctly,either way the mechanic should have checked all that after road testing the car after they replaced the sump...

Replacing the sump you don't see a great deal of the internals of the engine, in fact very little, to see if any other damage was done. A greater indicator would have been the oil which you had lost when the sump was holed. At £150 you have gone for the cheapest option of replacing the part that easiest to diagnose. The damage to the cylinders, valves and bearings would require much more investigation at a vastly greater expenses due to the time involved. Usually cheaper to replace the engine than to delve deep into it's internals.

As Rustynuts has said you have 200k on the car and all you get back is equivalent if fault was found which would be another high mileage engine with no warranty. He has only replaced the sump and that is all that you have paid for, no detailed inspection of the engine internals was requested, done or paid for.

If the engine was making noise with low oil warning I wouldn't have switched off and had the car recovered. You've paid for the minimum work required, taken the gamble and lost. If you had gone to a main dealer and just wanted the sump replaced you would have had a clause written into the invoice stating the engine condition cannot be verified.

The oil light only tells you that there is an oil pressure problem not the level of oil. The oil pressure can be affected by many situations which would again require detailed inspection.

Considering I was annoyed about paying £150 for damage I couldn't understand, I wanted some reassurance. Surely his word and driving of the car says something, even so.. if damage was still there. Cant I argue, do to your driving (on your own accord) the engine started to seaze?

 

I got in the car and left. Maybe there was some leakage. He didnt mention anything coming out from the bottom, so i assume the sump was fitted/sealed properly.. but problems further up in the car. Personally, I think when he gave the car back to me and I drove it for 1/2 hour the engine, as oil was being reduced, eventually ceased. Now i dont know if it was reasonably forseeable for him to know this. Should he have asked for full info of account (i explained everything to the dot) or with anything he noticed damaged to the sump and replaced, it was impossible for him to know about engine damage.

 

It is not a pleasant situation. I'm trying to be neutral, whereas you probably feel aggrieved, which is understandable. As CWARD mentions, a repair in these circumstances is a bit of a gamble.  And it hasn't worked in your case, so you just need to move forward.  Consider for a moment if the engine siezed whilst the mechanic was test driving following the repair, would he automatically be responsible and/or liable?

 

I would say no, not if the siezed engine was cause by the earlier experience of loss of  oil pressure.

 

What does seem odd, is the low oil level, following the repair and advice to continue driving and return to garage.

 

Whether that has caused the ultimate failure or whether it was going to happen anyway I think would be next to impossible for you to prove within economic constraints. Which is why I suggest you try to work with the mechanic (or another if you have lost confidence) to get yourself on the road again. The present garage however maybe more willing to help though, given the circumstances.

Also noticed you had bought a used sump for £60 that you had the mechanic fit. Again no guarantee on that being in perfect condition, no cracks, warped or worn threads for the drain hole.

 

I'd save my money in pursuing this legally and instead look at getting a replacement engine which if you haven't gone in guns blazing blaming the mechanic then he may be able to help you source one cheaper and may discount his own rates to fit it.   

What does seem odd, is the low oil level, following the repair and advice to continue driving and return to garage.

 

Not normal advice on such a precious part of the engine. If I was to drive it back for 30 mins then I would have put some more oil in first before doing so.

Discuss this with your local Citizen's Advice Bureau and maybe your local trading standards, and perhaps pursue a 'small claims' approach that you can do yourself.  Solicitors are definitely a last resort. Speak to the garage after you've done this, and maybe he'll be willing to reach a deal.  At all times, treat it like a business transaction, and don't get emotional with anyone.  Stick to the facts, don't surmise or try to guess what others might think.  Cool and business like rather than an emotional outburst.  Even in a small claims case, you may be faced with the expense of obtaining an expert opinion.

Speaking from personal experience of a holed sump and subsequent repair...

 

The engine was never the same again, and vibrations could be felt through the whole car afterwards. I chased the insurance company, the insurance repair garage, went through the local main dealers to gain their opinion of the repair, went through my solicitors to ask their advice, and I got nowhere. Admittedly, my car was still driveable, and no one else could apparently feel the vibrations and issues, but ultimately it ended when I stood in the dealers and asked the service manager in front of my tame salesman "So you can state categorically that there's nothing wrong with my car, and it's in perfect condition?" to which he replied "Yes sir. Nothing wrong at all!"

So I turned to the salesman and said, "There you go. I'd like to trade it against a new car please, and I expect the best possible trade in price for mine, given that your service manager has given it a clean bill of health."

 

And fair to say, he gave me as much as I would've expected for part ex, and a better deal than I could find anywhere else. Suffice to say I lost a good many hours sleep and time over the situation, and I got nothing from it other than I bought a new car at a very good price. If it were me in this situation again I'd just take as much from it as I can and be done with it. The agro and hair loss wasn't worth it then for a £10k car, and I doubt it's going to be worth it for you now in a car worth about half of that figure.

I had a second hand 16V engine installed in one of my (many) old Golf's after the original one died. It was a rush job as I needed to get it back on the road ASAP. That one soon died from terminal oil pressure problems. It appeared that the engine had been run on no or little oil causing all the white metal of the camshaft and other bearings to melt and drop down into the sump where they nicely blocked the oil pump pick-up strainer thus causing more oil starvation and catastrophic failure!! I was really annoyed with myself about this as I had sourced the engine and got my garage to fit it. I couldn't blame them as they were only doing as I asked. I think I got £50 back from the scrap-yard that sold me the engine as they described it as A1 condition when clearly it wasn't. I think the CC company helped as I bought it through them. Still got pictures of the "silver cornflakes" somewhere.

 

I'd suggest a possible similar fault. Oil starvation will cause damage to the top of the engine first. If not fixed properly then the rest will follow shortly afterwards. 

Discuss this with your local Citizen's Advice Bureau and maybe your local trading standards, and perhaps pursue a 'small claims' approach that you can do yourself.  Solicitors are definitely a last resort. Speak to the garage after you've done this, and maybe he'll be willing to reach a deal.  At all times, treat it like a business transaction, and don't get emotional with anyone.  Stick to the facts, don't surmise or try to guess what others might think.  Cool and business like rather than an emotional outburst.  Even in a small claims case, you may be faced with the expense of obtaining an expert opinion.

 

Reach a deal for what though? He fitted a second hand sump of unknown origin. I wouldn't be standing by the quality of that in a million years. Unfortunately the OP has gone for the cheapest possible fix they could after driving a car with no oil pressure and wonder why it's now not working. 

 

I'm all for consumer rights and used it many times; this however I think is not fair on the garage as they were supplied a second hand part and dealing with an engine that was already likely damaged when run dry. I think you'd have a hard time in a small claims court. 

If you've driven the car whilst the red oil warning light is illuminated then the responsibility is with the driver I'm afraid.

 

The manual states that as soon as the light comes on to stop and turn the engine off.

I think the OP may have got the hint now. Hopefully anyone who didn't know to stop the engine and check the oil level if the oil light comes on will now know to do so  :notme: