ERWIN QI6 VCDS and Service costs. Technical post.

[Greyvrsthree]

It’s raining so…

 

Background:

 

My basic position is ‘whatever the car needs the car gets, regardless of cost.’ However, ‘needs’ is the operative word in that sentence. Like all of you, I do not want my hard earned cash lining the pocket of my local garage owner, because the vast majority are vulnerable, exploitable and they used to getting away with it. (I used to work in garages 25 years ago and many of my mates still do (not for VAG types), if they are to be believed nothings changed…)

 

As an engineer, I have the type of mind which likes to know in detail, what is going on. Since my car is in warranty I am keen to understand and then decide on how the manufactures stipulations should be followed. I want to know what those are, not require the ‘guidance’ of my garage. How come any deciding is needed? Read on…

 

I am confused about the differing intervals between the “oil change” and the “inspection frequencies”. My understanding is the issue. Depending on use, various elements will potentially wear more quickly than expected and conversely potentially less quickly. We all know this.

My specific car was sold to me as an ex demonstrator eight months after its PDI (so eight months after it was commissioned). The vendors performed an oil change only service and used Castrol LL 5w30. The good stuff. I asked for it to be placed onto QI6. Although when I got the car the options label shows that it was delivered set to QI6 from the factory. (See Attachment.)

I am 9200 miles elapsed (16250 total) and the oil change indicator warning has popped up. A quick hoak through the computer shows that the oil type is set to low quality, hence the warning. I can change the oil type to good quality and the head up display then tells me I need an oil change in 10000 miles. (I set it back to low quality again.) My assumption at this point was that the vendor of the car used the buttons and not the computer to reset the “oil change” service interval which automatically sets the car into QI4 or 15000km between oil changes. The computer records 13825km since the last oil change. (So handy being able to look all this stuff up on board!)

Because of the split oil and inspection situation, it does not need the inspection for another four months.

 

Got all that?

 

In essence, the oil and the inspection is out of step at the moment but seemingly need not be the case? Views? How to correct adjust? What would you do? – (if you cared as much as me)

Reading through the Maintaince.pdf, kindly shared by other members of the forum: {Page 16 details what items are to be carried out in an inspection)

At and after two years, the car needs an annual inspection or 18641miles (30k km) whichever arrives first. This is weird because on QI6 for my sort of mileage (10k pa) I would always be changing the oil needlessly every year. I see someone else already asked whether he could get the inspection without the oil change and was told; not.

Is the consensus that “it won’t hurt to change the oil too often”?

 

So at two year inspection my car needs.

1. Oil and filter.
2. A new pollen filter – needs a special tool to get the infotainment system out of the glove box.
3. All the points on Maintainance pg 17 looking at. Which can be defined as inspection of tyres, levels and brakes.

 

My local dealer quoted me £280inc for the above, including an oil change. Totally OTT for 45 mins work - views ?

 

Other Option:

 

I created an account at erwin.skoda-auto.cz which will allow my mates (in the industry) to update the ESR as an independent dealer online and we could document all the purchase receipts and work, so I can prove it was done beyond any doubt and leave Skoda alone.

 

Has anyone on here used Erwin system at all ?

 

Sumary of Questions:

 

In essence, the oil and the inspection is out of step at the moment but seemingly need not be the case? Views? How to correct adjust? What would you do? – (if you cared as much as me)

Is the consensus that “it won’t hurt to change the oil too often”?

My local dealer quoted me £280inc for the above, including an oil change. Totally OTT for 45 mins work - views ?

Has anyone on here used Erwin system at all ?

[gRoberts]

Pollen filter needing a special tool?

I took my glove box out to fit my dashcam hard wire and saw the flap that unclips to reveal the filter.

No tools were needed to remove the glove box either.

[Greyvrsthree]

_{Thanks for that - I read the body manual (it's still bloody raining) spot on - thanks again. The most minor element of the post has been addressed!}

Edited 15 January, 2017 by Greyvrsthree

[gRoberts]

I too hate companies taking advantage of those not always necessarily clued up.

Two friends now have taken their Vauxhalls to Evans Halshaw for recall work and been given a estimate for "essential work" that exceeds a thousand pounds.

Learning you can run diagnostics on your own car plus do some other interesting for less than one diagnostic session with a dealer opened my eyes.

[rum4mo]

I bought my funday car, an Audi S4 secondhand still set on variable servicing, but like so many other marques, that car got an oil and filter(hopefully) change prior to me buying it - which was maybe 400 miles and 4 months prior to it having its previous service. So its servicing "routine" is out of "phase" - garage says it must be serviced in February, but I've picked June as it makes more sense for me and that car does not get much running along with the fact that I replace the oil and filter at the "inbetween" point - so it gets oil changes annually - but still Audi try to get me to hand it in at its birthday for some other work which their menu servicing can't quite get round to telling me what it is, their only "choice" being "big" or "small" services (my words) with urgent things like pollen filter and AC needing paid for every year if I went along with their way of doing things.  I think at 6 years old it is time to stop treating Audi dealer to my money, I might try the old "I'll supply my oil" trick though to save a chunk of money (and principle) as they do whack owners on the oil price and that car holds 6.5litres.

 

So yes, dishonesty or cheating rules at dealerships, from the Audi menu servicing option, for instance the plugs and air filter get changed if they need it at "big" services - but these "big" services are a fixed price, so if it does not need the extra bits I probably still pay if I was stupid, I'd rather see a fixed "big" service price but with less in it and all the extras being charged on top of that if they are relevant at that age of car. My previous car was a VW Passat 4Motion that I personally imported so it only had 12 months VW warranty and so only had one dealer service in its 13 years life with me, same for wife's previous VW Polo again for 13 years life with her, I did all the other services.  What you do might be down to how long you intend to keep that car - I typically keep cars until they are almost valueless so saving on servicing are real savings.

[rum4mo]

I too hate companies taking advantage of those not always necessarily clued up.

Two friends now have taken their Vauxhalls to Evans Halshaw for recall work and been given a estimate for "essential work" that exceeds a thousand pounds.

Learning you can run diagnostics on your own car plus do some other interesting for less than one diagnostic session with a dealer opened my eyes.

 

On a similar note, I needed to take my daughter's late 2009 SEAT Ibiza into the only local dealer to check for BCM software update, the list of "wants" that car came back with was not unexpected, unnecessary and over priced - but they do seem to have taken the hint and not chased me up about it, curiously they missed the point that that car was 2 days over its "service due" date - which I had delayed doing due to Christmas/New Year etc!  Mainly the "work required" was cambelt and brake fluid and two new tyres, the cambelt and brake fluid had been done in time though outwith the dealer service loop and the two tyres will still be legal in 12 months time, though hopefully they will get replaced this next Autumn. They also topped up the washer fluid (it had been full) and engine oil (it had been on max) - which probably explains why so much oil came out of it when I changed the oil a few days later!! Muppets!

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

Everyone needs to bare in mind that not all dealers are the same.

[PetrolDave]

Everyone needs to bare in mind that not all dealers are the same.

Agreed, but there seem to be too many dealers who do not use common sense when it comes to servicing. I think this is a contributor to many owners using the term "stealers", which for many owners sums up their experience.

 

My worst dealer experiences were when my local Audi dealer wrote telling me that the cam belt needed changing on my 2007 RS4 (which has multiple chains but no cambelt) and then 2 weeks later my then local Soda dealer wrote telling my wife that the cambelt on her 2005 1.2 Fabia needed changing (another chain driven engine). These showed a total lack of awareness and knowledge of the vehicles, and was the final straw in us deciding too take them to a local independent - who did great work at sensible prices and always consulted us.

 

Having said all that there ARE good dealers around, but it shouldn't be like that they should ALL be good dealers.

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

That's because dealers tend to employ people from a non technical background to be their front of house staff and they are often clueless, where your local Indy might only have a handful of staff but the chances are they all talk to each other or there's only 1 guy who deals with everything and can nip these enquiries in the bud there and then.

We're no exception and have had cars booked in for work that isn't applicable, it a relief to the customer that they don't end up with a £400+ bill but they tend to be a bit ****ed off with the inconvenience.

[gRoberts]

Don't get me wrong, if I had the choice it would be indie every time. A dealer is only useful for providing the car, genuine parts (at a push) and recall work.

I'm only entertaining them for warranty purposes on my two cars otherwise everything else I do my self.

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

i don't know? We're also pretty useful for:

Software updates

Warranty work

Goodwill work

Routine maintenance work

Special procedures

Radio codes

Component protection removal

Technical advice

Product demonstration

Complex fault diagnosis

Resetting service lights

But to name a few.

[Geek42]

What is the difference between the oil grades? Why is one capable of twice the mileage of the other?

 

My two-penneth: If your mileage is <9.3k/yr then 'fixed' interval servicing is fine. If you are >9.3k but <18.7k then use 'variable' servicing but do it annually anyway. This keeps the oil and inspection in sync, since inspections are annual once you get past the first one.

 

I wish I'd made sure mine was serviced on its first birthday, but I didn't work this out until after, so what I did in the end to get them back in sync was to ignore the 'inspection' demand from the OBC (I checked intervals for plugs / air filter etc and determined that nothing was imminent), but I wouldn't recommend this necessarily. If you're in a position to give it an annual one whether the oil is due or not then it's a better solution.

[rum4mo]

What is the difference between the oil grades? Why is one capable of twice the mileage of the other?​"

 

There was initially a difference in the oil specs normal V  LL - but ironically, I think to avoid confusion, all main dealers use the same oil for both types service oil service.

 

This LL servicing would have been aimed at fleets etc to keep the cars on the road, not really relevant to domestic users in the main.

[Greyvrsthree]

My two-penneth: If your mileage is <9.3k/yr then 'fixed' interval servicing is fine. If you are >9.3k but <18.7k then use 'variable' servicing but do it annually anyway. This keeps the oil and inspection in sync, since inspections are annual once you get past the first one.

 

 

 

That's what I was enquiring in the OP; do most folk on this forum accept that their oil in not reaching its life before being changed? Don't misunderstand my here, I know its good to keep fresh oil in a modern turbo charged engine. Esp the turbos are sensitive to oil quality. I guess that this answer is 'yes by omission'.

 

What is the difference between the oil grades? Why is one capable of twice the mileage of the other?

 

 

 

Maybe "Chief minion at RRG" has the official answer. My guess concerning that is, when the car is run for longer distances, the engine is hot enough all the time to recirculate the nasties, which keeps the oil in better condition for longer. When the engine is cold more of the time aka <10000 pa mileage the oil becomes excessively contaminated more quickly. There is a device monitoring oil condition internally in any case. If it dips below a certain quality the car will prematurely request an oil change regardless of the stipulated service interval. Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q6 can all be over-ridden by the cars own software in this way.

 

For me:

 

To rectify my current situation, since I know it has LL 05w30 and I know most of my 9k miles are motorway miles (i.e. hot miles); that I want to continue on the existing oil, until the two year point in May arrives. This will take the oil to roughly 12000 miles use. Subsequently find a dealer who sticks to the Skoda approved maximum service price point which I see is £200, for that service.

To achieve - I will flip the oil type to "good oil" in software. Although my mileage is low currently, my work type might mean that I start to incur high mileage in a short space of time. This was a motivation for this purchase initially. Diesel, comparatively comfortable, economical and relatively ok price point.

[rum4mo]

I'm not wanting to drag out this "kick the main dealers" - but there is too much of it going around right now:- software updates, for my wife's last Polo 9N that just did not happen, any suggestion that that car with the BBY engine spitting out stupid unrelated fault codes in winter was due an update did not happen: SEAT Ibiza with battery drain, that took about 8 months and two SEAT dealers to get to software update and even then SEAT UK had to advise them which update was relevant : cambelt changing, yes my VW dealer argued black was white when I was booking my 2000 Passat 2.8V6 in to get a belt change, even the service workshop top man said "it is a chain" - wrong.

 

I do take on what was said about "front of house staff" - that would have been the reason why VW was desperately chasing me on my mobile phone after I handed the 2015 Polo in to get its EVAP pipe changed - "can you tell us why you have handed this car in?" - idiots, they booked it in after taking delivery of the new version of hose!

 

At the moment, any VW group dealer will charge £99 an hour for "tech" work, that is acceptable as a lot of time and money has been put into "making" and keeping that quality of person, but now these dealers should be setting these people to work in a tech manner - and not keep things as a bit of guessing, okay some jobs will be trickier than others, but why should an owner pay tech rates and get poor service?

[Greyvrsthree]

Its a workforce issue. Someone with what you cite as the technical capability (or even the organisation skills in your example) is unlikely to want to work in a cold garage on cars, under the clock all day to make money. Its a chicken and egg really. Customer pocket and available workforce cost / skill.

 

Perhaps the answer would be 'the cloud'. The garage plugs it in and software at skoda, tells the technician what to do. Your removing the recruitment training and currency issue from the dealer and placing it in a technical center. I guess that way the skills can be concentrated and maintained. The issue then becomes the interface for the dealers into the serice center and not making it the 'offshore call centre' experience for them.

Edited 16 January, 2017 by Greyvrsthree

[PetrolDave]

Perhaps the answer would be 'the cloud'. The garage plugs it in and software at skoda, tells the technician what to do.

You're assuming that ALL faults can be correctly diagnosed via the diagnostic port, which for many mechanical faults and any non-electronically controlled system (e.g. most suspension systems, wheel bearings, washer pipe problems, etc.) isn't true. There will always be faults that need examining by the "Mark 1 eyeball" and hence a need for a well trained mechanic/technician.

 

I use the mechanic/technician to clarify that whoever repairs cars MUST have a decent standard of mechanical knowledge and not just be a keyboard jockey.

 

I used to work for a major sports car manufacturer, and it was always surprising how many times we were called to help a dealer with an "unsolvable problem" that we normally solved in less than 15 minutes...

[Greyvrsthree]

Yes I didn't express myself very well. I think so far as the software and computer side of things go, a concentration of skill and access to that skill, may help in rum4mo's case. That in no way negates the other elements required though. This is the problem with forum posts you can never really get a sense across accurately in a post except by typing out something akin to the EU constitution!

[Greyvrsthree]

To wind this up from my side:

 

I phoned the Vendor of the car and an extreenely helpful (Yeovill Skoda, nice to have something nice to say) lady on the service disk:

1. Double checked that the oil they have used for the last few years has allways been LL Castrol 5w30 - so it has to have that in it.

2. Was pleased to learn the using the dash buttons resets the car to QI4 service interval as this solved a mystery for her.

3. Said there would be no issue with placing my car back onto QI6 so that I can reach the inspection month on the current oil in the motor.

4. Said get the dealer to ring her if there was any issue as it should have been left on QI6 when it left them.

 

I've been phoning round for a price on the service... - talk about variable answers..

 

Fish Brothers in Swindon = £214 all in - and they will do it while I wait.

Marshalls in Reading = £280 need the car all day.

Marshalls in Whitney = £270 will do it while I wait.

Listers in Banbury - would not give a price without a registration number as "they all vary"

Garland in Blackwater = £239

 

£214 is still alot of money for 45 mins work and £70 worth (retail, they won't be paying that) of parts.

 

I am reminded now, of the reason why I have spent all the hours I have servicing and maintaining my own cars. With the exception of very specialised items which have gone to specialists and they were always done properly, but had a four figure bill to match!

Edited 16 January, 2017 by Greyvrsthree

[rum4mo]

Yes I didn't express myself very well. I think so far as the software and computer side of things go, a concentration of skill and access to that skill, may help in rum4mo's case. That in no way negates the other elements required though. This is the problem with forum posts you can never really get a sense across accurately in a post except by typing out something akin to the EU constitution!

 

I might be wrong here, but from my contact over the years with VW group main dealers (not been near any others as I only currently have VW group cars), the software programs held in these cars is not being logged exactly and it seems that any changes being made by the main dealers are not being logged exactly, and just to make things worse, I don't thing the mandated diagnostic tools and online live resources being placed at the disposal of Techs allow the swift and accurate reading/comparing of the currently loaded versions against the latest versions of software advised for that individual car!  Time for car manufacturers to either dump using software or wise up and control it correctly as in other industries that use it and expect for bugs to exist and for changes to be needing to be made.