Timing Chain VCDS Measurement

[kton200281]

Hi All, does anyone have any experience reading VCDS / VAG COM output? A kind member ran a few reports on my car, no error codes on the chains, but we did review 091 / 094 measuring blocks on cam shaft adjustment but i am struggling to understand what it means. I also only have the intake camshaft adjustment figures, nothing for output as they were not available.

Thanks in advance 

[rayx]

Well, according your history I guess you ask details for your engine - 2.0 TSI at VRS 2010 - right? Than you look for group 93, field 3, on warm iddle. But, it is only partial info, says nothing about tensioner, which should be always only the last one 06K 109 467 K.

 

Following info found somewhere on the russian net as official manuals say nothing for first and second stage of EA888 ...

How to diagnose a chain stretching? Connect VCDS ---> go to Block - 1 (engine) ---> measured group ---> 93 group ---> Phase Position. What is the angle of misalignment of shafts critical for us? 0 - 2 degrees - a value characteristic of the new machines, or machines with the new circuit; 2 - 4 degrees - the recommended chain replacement value at which you can hear a clear metallic ringing of the left side of the engine))) 4 - 6 degrees - Urgent replacement or dumb luck. At these values, if in the morning when you turn the key in the ignition, the engine wound up, I recommend to go to a casino, a pet tiger, take a dip in the river with piranhas in the general off in full - this is your day!

[TheClient]

Interested to understand some of this. Info on these fields seems relatively limited.

 

Looking at the tables on available on Ross-Tech:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/090-098.html

Seems like blocks 90-98 deal with timing.

 

Is it true only 91,93, 94 would be populated for a EA888 2.0TSI?

 

What is the acceptable variation in actual and specified camshaft adjustment values in block 91?  Presumably these to do with the operation of the variable intake timing mechanism? The values would change with RPM?

 

What is block 94 about?

 

These figures were posted from a stock US EA888 CBFA engine in Ross Tech Forums. This was given for a reference in response to posters questions and presumably the car had no faults / misoperation.

 

Is it ok to see negative - 2.06 for block 93? Using your rule 0-2 is ok but negative? IS that expected.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5656769-What-are-the-equivalent-measuring-blocks-in-EA888-for-blocks-208-209-on-EA113

 

 

91,0,, 
91,1,,, 
;720 /min,, 
91,2,,, 
;5.9 %,, 
91,3,,, 
;28.0°KW,, 
91,4,,, 
;27.5°KW,, 
; 
; 
93,0,, 
93,1,,, 
;760 /min,, 
93,2,,, 
;16.5 %,, 
93,3,,, 
;-2.06°,, 
93,4,,, 
; ,, 
; 
; 
94,0,, 
94,1,,, 
;760 /min,, 
94,2,,, 
;27.5°KW,, 
94,3,,, 
;System OK,, 
94,4,,, 

 

Edited 12 May, 2017 by TheClient

[rayx]

Yes, info to these engines is very limited. From what I got the value can vary rougly from negative (-4 to -0,000...) over 0 to positive (0,000... to 1,5). I am now after 30kkm on new tensioner and chain on about +0,3 but very often see on internet negative values. The info in post above relates only for negative values as a result of chain streched, positive should be OK on condition all parts assembled on marks.

 

As VAG was aware of this issue with timing and chain elongation, on third stage of EA888 with two cam shaft variators they incorporated in ECU such checking mechanism to avoid same trouble as in previous generations, see in SSP 522 on p.9. I am sure that is based on same group 93/3 as we do now with our scanners, so keep an eye on delta in time when we do not have other data to compare with

SSP-Nr__522__The_2_0_l_162_kW___169_kW_TSI_engine.pdf

[kton200281]

This was at idle: 
 

TIME	Group 91 - Field 1	TIME	Group 91 - Field 2	TIME	Group 91 - Field 3	TIME	Group 94 - Field 1
STAMP	Cam. Adjustment - Intake Bank 1	STAMP	Cam. Adjustment - Intake B1 (spec.)	STAMP	Cam. Adjustment - Intake B1 (act.)	STAMP	Cam. Adjustment - Intake B1 (act.)
	%		°KW		°KW		°KW
0	5.9	0	28	0	27.5	0.14	27.5
0.3	5.9	0.3	28	0.3	27.5	0.45	28
0.59	5.9	0.59	28	0.59	27.5	0.73	28
0.89	5.9	0.89	28	0.89	28	1.03	28
1.17	5.9	1.17	28	1.17	27.5	1.31	28
1.47	5.9	1.47	28	1.47	28	1.62	28
1.76	5.9	1.76	28	1.76	27.5	1.9	28
2.06	5.9	2.06	28	2.06	28	2.2	28
2.34	5.9	2.34	28	2.34	27.5	2.48	27.5
2.64	5.9	2.64	28	2.64	27.5	2.79	28
2.93	5.9	2.93	28	2.93	27.5	3.07	27.5
3.23	5.9	3.23	28	3.23	28	3.37	28
3.51	5.9	3.51	28	3.51	27.5	3.65	27.5
3.81	5.9	3.81	28	3.81	28	3.97	28
4.12	5.9	4.12	28	4.12	27.5	4.26	27.5
4.42	5.9	4.42	28	4.42	28	4.57	28
4.71	5.9	4.71	28	4.71	27.5	4.85	27.5
5.01	5.9	5.01	28	5.01	28	5.16	28
5.3	5.9	5.3	28	5.3	27.5	5.45	28
5.62	5.9	5.62	28	5.62	28	5.78	27.5

[kton200281]

Group A:	'091
	Engine Speed	Cam. Adjustment	Cam. Adjustment	Cam. Adjustment
TIME	(G28)	Intake Bank 1	Intake B1 (spec.)	Intake B1 (act.)
STAMP	/min	%	°KW	°KW
0	760	5.9	28	28
0.07	720	5.9	28	28
0.16	720	5.9	28	27.5
0.23	720	5.9	28	27.5
0.3	720	5.9	28	27.5
0.37	760	5.9	28	28
0.44	760	5.9	28	27.5
0.52	760	5.9	28	28
0.59	720	5.9	28	28
0.67	760	5.9	28	28
0.75	760	5.9	28	27.5
0.82	760	5.9	28	27.5
0.89	760	5.9	28	27.5

[kton200281]

2 tables i have posted relate to block 91 and 94. There was no info available in blocks 92 or 93 when we tried to look for these while plugged in to the car.......this was all the info we could find related to timing / cam shaft adjustment

[TheClient]

My take on what is there is that doesn't look much untoward there.

 

It is Similar to the data of the US car posted on the Ross-Tech forums but you really need data for block 93 based on what Rayx says to make some inference on the timing chain stretch. And I think there is a basic setting to run on 094 to show retarded through advanced timing sweep?

 

I don't have VCDS so haven't done it on mine or I would post more detail.

 

Edit: For benefit of others searching this thread in future, there is an inspection plug in the lower timing cover which, with a mirror, gives some limited view of the tensioner for inspection.

Edited 13 May, 2017 by TheClient

[rayx]

@kton200281 Well, it surprises me, what scanner have you used? Group 93/3 must be accessible, either in Measuring Blocks or Advanced Measuring Values, when not, something is wrong. According SSP for newer generation, what procedure is used to identify chain stretch is described as "Chain elongation is detected by the camshaft sensors and the crankshaft sensor by means of the relative position of the camshafts compared to the crankshaft."

[kton200281]

No idea rayx, wasn't my scanner. I'm not surprised - I have no clue how these things work! I think we were in advanced measuring blocks looking at all the options in the 90 range. did searchfor fault codes and other than an air con one which is now fixed there were no others so am happy to leave it as it is

[Rjg]

I'm glad I found this topic! I scanned a car earlier this week that I'm considering buying.

 

091 values were 720min --- 5.9% --- 28.0kw --- 27.5kw (which I'm hoping is OK, as it's in-line with the above), then 093/3 value was -3.81 degrees.

 

I'd love to find something to confirm 100% what you're saying @rayx about 4 degrees being really bad?

 

 

[rayx]

Well, no official info to that, only web source from people as users. This is only indication of possible trouble, with such value I would check at first state of the tensioner through inspection hole at lower cover. When on car produced before 3rd March 2012, old style of tensioner fitted, those are prone to fail.

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/266114-18tsi-and-20tsi-engine-failures/?do=findComment&comment=3842844

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/266114-18tsi-and-20tsi-engine-failures/?do=findComment&comment=4097455

 

from Russians as example this

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.drive2.ru%2Fl%2F2384638

Edited 2 June, 2017 by rayx

[planehazza]

Interesting thanks for sharing this. Mine is reading 2.76° so a little bit out of spec. This car had the timing chain/tensioner failure about 35k miles ago, in 2013, so I'm hoping it has the latest part. Is that 2.76° anything to be concerned about yet? I never hear any metallic rattling etc. 

[rayx]

That means you should have the latest tensioner K, the issue still might be the chain itself as new design with suffixes AA or AD started I think from end 2013 ... Well, the value is negative, corretc? - 2.76°? Guess not yet critical, but as adviced, already needs at least real verification of the tensioner.

When you can, let someone to check number of teeth/grooves protruded on tensioner through inspection hole, most trusted method for testing chain elongation together with verification if tensioner suffix K fitted.

Technical product information 2025206_7.pdf

Technical product information 2024485_7.pdf

[planehazza]

On 2017-6-11 at 09:45, rayx said:

That means you should have the latest tensioner K, the issue still might be the chain itself as new design with suffixes AA or AD started I think from end 2013 ... Well, the value is negative, corretc? - 2.76°? Guess not yet critical, but as adviced, already needs at least real verification of the tensioner.

When you can, let someone to check number of teeth/grooves protruded on tensioner through inspection hole, most trusted method for testing chain elongation together with verification if tensioner suffix K fitted.

Technical product information 2025206_7.pdf

Technical product information 2024485_7.pdf

 

Yes, negative.  I checked againe last night after going out to do some VCDS measuring and the value is now -2.84. Looking at the documentation, the chain and guides were all replaced, however there is no mention of part numbers, so I've either got the newer part or they've just replaced like for like with part numbers. I'm taking the car along this week to have them do some troubleshooting as I'm still getting mistfire like sypmtoms (new coils and plugs and no misfire codes but I get a misfire like feeling at ~2500rpm and 4000rpm when accelerating.  The car pulls well and smooth after 4k, but going from 2k through to red has several 'hiccups' and stuttering at the mentioned rev ranges.  The valve timing is ~3.8 degrees out in places as well, but I have no idea what means in terms of being 'normal' or not.