Hi Ryeman,

 

Thanks for your reply!

Have to look into this EGR cooler valve etc.

 

What I have overlooked to mention in my earlier contribution is that I noticed very often a smell of burned rubber after parking the car. Couldn't make heads or tails of it but this must be connected with the EGR system. Hence, after the fix, the new software must "dictate"  higher temperatures for regeneration/cleaning!?

 

Regards, walterhein

Exactly. The last time my dpf warning light came on was on a drive from Bordeaux to Paris. After another  30 Km the glow plug and engine warning light came on. Took it into Skoda Dealer.. They said there was no soot in the dpf, so recommended  changing the temp sensor. They changed the sensor, then the next day the dpf light came on and after a week the other two came on. Took it back to Skoda, who then said it needed a regen and and some further calibration to the sensor and engine. Now waiting with fingers crossed.

This whole saga is becoming a nightmare!

 

 

 

 

The issue I alluded to is nobody with an EA189 before or after the 'fix' really knows what condition their emission control components were like. The factory lab will have done their tests on clean reference engines? The fix now makes the control system more active and I suspect Skoda started modifying the ECU before looking at a selection of vehicles and mileages, to see if the results and possibility of earlier failure could be related to the existing engine conditions. In my book they still carry a responsibility because left alone even with soot clogging our vehicles might have managed 100k miles (the expected life of a dpf) . Now with a level of sooting already there we can expect more failures after the fix.

 

I think I spotted some weasel words in one of my recall letters that the 'fix' might change. Sorry, but I don't expect to be a beta tester for my car.

 

My theory is our TDi engines with some miles on are already gummed up and the only way to be sure is to tear down the emission system to have a good look. Most will not see this because Skoda dealerships will try to negoitiate some goodwill warranty - That hides what's going on as they keep the reports and parts! The fix may have made the system more active, whilst still setting the same check parameters for putting fault lights on. I suspect there could be a number of DPF and EGR replacements coming from this and I wonder who is going to pay? I have never had a dpf warning come on, but now I have seen the extent of my soot clogging, and I know my EGR and cooler has been replaced,  I shall occasionally intervene with some forced dpf regens using vcds. I'm also going to add a temperature sensor to the DPF can so I can see what's going on.

 

I can offer an explanation as to why a dpf light might unexpectedly come on: I think some of the fault scenarios only occur during active regeneration and you don't always know when that is, although now I hear my fans running in Winter after stopping, when the coolant temperature is below normal fan cut in, I think that is the regen that was started and aborted when the vehicle stopped. For short journeys the cycle will be repeated for incomplete regenerations after stopping and more unburned fuel will be sitting in the DPF, exhaust and emissions system. I'm not just worried about higher temperatures and more fuel being pushed in, but if they have also reduced the mileage between regenerations, which I think from memory was 500 miles?

Edited 17 December, 20178 yr by voxmagna

30 minutes ago, voxmagna said:

The issue I alluded to is nobody with an EA189 before or after the 'fix' really knows what condition their emission control components were like. The factory lab will have done their tests on clean reference engines? The fix now makes the control system more active and I suspect Skoda started modifying the ECU before looking at a selection of vehicles and mileages, to see if the results and possibility of earlier failure could be related to the existing engine conditions. In my book they still carry a responsibility because left alone even with soot clogging our vehicles might have managed 100k miles (the expected life of a dpf) . Now with a level of sooting already there we can expect more failures after the fix.

 

I My theory is our TDi engines with some miles on are already gummed up and the only way to be sure is to tear down the emission system to have a good look. Most will not see this because Skoda dealerships will try to negoitiate some goodwill warranty - That hides what's going on as they keep the reports and parts! The fix may have made the system more active, whilst still setting the same check parameters for putting fault lights on. I suspect there could be a number of DPF and EGR replacements coming from this and I wonder who is going to pay? I have never had a dpf warning come on, but now I have seen the extent of my soot clogging, and I know my EGR and cooler has been replaced,  I shall occasionally intervene with some forced dpf regens using vcds. I'm also going to add a temperature sensor to the DPF can so I can see what's going on.

 

 

My view entirely. When VAG realised early on they could not meet the emission standard EU "test", they were too far down the line to start again, and had to resort to some sort of "fudge" to pass go. Possibly even Adblue was an extra expense they might have thought they could avoid, but time and budgets were against them? The obvious question, which has been asked, if they have a "fix", why wasn't it applied at source - well I think they were in a pit by then and then couldn't stop digging.

Others were obviously struggling as witness the "warm up temperature" fudge - many makers are close to the line as well.

 

Trust the US to unearth a whole can of worms which appears to show that emissions were not really falling in real life, and that emission software was struggling to keep up with the whole EU emission test mess/ diesel is best/ etc. Politicians - ?

 

Many older cars will struggle with the "fix", and I think VAG know this only too well - which is why everyone is switching to electric.

 

Just my view. 

Electric just means power station belching out emissions, as there is nowhere near enough renewable power available to charge them.

 

You can see how desperate the system is becoming when electric cars are now designed to be left plugged in all the time, charged off peak and used to support the grid at peak hours, refunding the owner some money when the battery is used in this way. 

 

I can't see how a battery car would suit me often doing return trips of 150 miles plus, well exceeding the range. Indeed I start to worry when I have only 80 miles of fuel left in the tank in case I can't complete my journey. A fully charged electric car may only have that to start with!

 

Interesting to see what will happen to value of older electric cars. I wouldn't consider owning one, even a hybrid with no range issues, as the batteries will need replacing at huge cost at around 5 years old. Outlanders are having to be leased secondhand as buyers will not touch them used at any realistic price compared to original cost. What about the pollution and loss or rare resources to even make the batteries in the first place. In a few years time we will probably all look back in despair at the foolish rush to battery powered cars.

 

The way forward surely has to be hydrogen which only really emits water vapour, plus a little contamination from oil in the engine leaking past seals to burn with the fuel. Or better still a fuel cell to power electric motors.

That will be Hydrogen produced from Electricity then. Renewable generated electricity.

The Electricity that all those Wind Farms on and off shore and Solar Farms are producing but has no way of storage if no Hydro Schemes available or Transmission to Norway etc.

So Hydrogen like the Busses and Local Authority vans and now 'a taxi' are using in Aberdeen where there are Hydrogen Filling Stations 

that have it from Renewable Generated Electricity, like on Northern and Western Islands.

As I see it the advantage of hydrogen is that even though it requires electricity to produce the converters can choose when to use the power to fit in with low demand periods. No need to use peak period electricity. I fear that government are rushing to electric cars in the same way they rushed into diesel. Never learn do they?

Sensible might be Hydrogen & EV's.  Not all your eggs in one basket.

The EV's that are Storage for Renewable Electricity and use in Vehicles and to the National Grid, and Hydrogen Generation and transportation from all 

these renewable generation areas that have no Strorage facilities or local usage so surpluses and that can go for HGV / Light Commercial & Public Transport use, 

and those Commercial Travellers / Reps & just anyone doing high daily mileages that can not afford a TESLA.

Even a Tesla might not have the range some do non stop now.

(Maybe some commercial travellers need to drive less distances and get with it, the days or Rep Mobiles could be over.)

Quote

Many older cars will struggle with the "fix", and I think VAG know this only too well - which is why everyone is switching to electric.

 

I can also see advantage of cleaner fuels, but the problem is with the 'fixed' EA189 engines that have been sold since 2012. There are many with newer vehicles who might have the same ticking time bomb for future expensive repairs?  VAG probably aren't worried about the after consequences, as long as modified vehicles pass the EU/UK NOx tests. USA got the best deals with the buy backs because I think they knew that even a 'fixed' engine could have future problems. It wouldn't be so bad if replacing the DPF was easy and cheap - but it isn't. They might try to avoid compensation or warranty claims by saying it's 'our type of driving'.  If you are letting a dealership solve your problem don't expect to get much information back from them. One common line from service shops is 'we see loads of clogged EGRs all the time' and that was before the ECU fix. It will take a class action with detailed analysis by independent qualified automotive engineers to win a case.  Something else concerning me is Yeti 4x4 TDi owners who use it mainly for off road: A DPF regen. starts after 40 mph with a hot engine and takes 15-20 minutes to complete. Nothing seems to add up and I think sooting and clogging of emissions components on the modified EA189 is now inevitable, with no solution in sight. I don't want the sooting and clog, more DPF regen is not the answer.  Has Skoda changed their claim on DPF life for a modified engine?

 

Has anybody here had emissions faults come up since having the ECU fix and successfully got Skoda to pay for parts AND labor? Do we need a survey?

Edited 17 December, 20178 yr by voxmagna

1 hour ago, kenfowler3966 said:

Electric just means power station belching out emissions, as there is nowhere near enough renewable power available to charge them.

 

You can see how desperate the system is becoming when electric cars are now designed to be left plugged in all the time, charged off peak and used to support the grid at peak hours, refunding the owner some money when the battery is used in this way. 

 

I can't see how a battery car would suit me often doing return trips of 150 miles plus, well exceeding the range. Indeed I start to worry when I have only 80 miles of fuel left in the tank in case I can't complete my journey. A fully charged electric car may only have that to start with!

 

Interesting to see what will happen to value of older electric cars. I wouldn't consider owning one, even a hybrid with no range issues, as the batteries will need replacing at huge cost at around 5 years old. Outlanders are having to be leased secondhand as buyers will not touch them used at any realistic price compared to original cost. What about the pollution and loss or rare resources to even make the batteries in the first place. In a few years time we will probably all look back in despair at the foolish rush to battery powered cars.

 

The way forward surely has to be hydrogen which only really emits water vapour, plus a little contamination from oil in the engine leaking past seals to burn with the fuel. Or better still a fuel cell to power electric motors.

 

If large numbers of electric vehicles were sold with streets of them being charged, the electricity infrastructure wouldn't be able to cope with existing copper cables and somebody has to pay for replacements. So you get selfish, have a 3 phase supply and install a fast charger.  But the electricity companies are way ahead of you with their 'smart meters'. You are tempted to have one to know about your energy consumption. But did you know they can also monitor your peak load demand? In Europe they set their charge tariffs based on both average load AND peak demand with peak demand specified and limited according to which electricity contract you buy. That's how the privatised companies get the extra money from consumers to upgrade their cables.

Simply Clever is that the UK Government and the 3 others making up the UK have all this new houses they are assisting in the building off have the correct utilities and cables etc for the future the UK Government need to have due to what they signed up for on Carbon and Pollution reduction.

Joined up Government and Planning and infrastructure planning, and more Park & Rides and Charging Stations.

.......anyway 

2018 production petrol engines will have the GPF added just to make THEM a pita also.

Avoid.

On 16/12/2017 at 13:39, Jonathon1 said:

Just had another re- generation by the Skoda dealer. 3rd in 12 months!    They also  fitted a new temperature sensor. (2nd in 12 months. First one fitted my my local garage)  They re-programed the new sensor saying that it hadn't been programmed properly  by my local garage and they gave me the normal speel about doing to many short journeys.  For goodness sake I live in the back of beyond in deepest rural France and  don't do any short journeys as my nearest shop is 15 km away.

Not sure if this will fix the problem but fingers crossed. 

 

15km/9 miles is NOT a long journey. The engine will not be getting fully warm on journeys like that.

Ok I accept that but the last time the warning lights came on was well into a 150 km journey!

IMHO I think this is what happens: For a normal driving DPF regen. you need to be doing over 40mph for at least 15-20 minutes with the coolant temperature over 70 degrees which in Winter could be a few km. The ECU monitors various things in the emission control system - temperatures, pressures, soot load etc, but other parameters are only measured when regen. has started and during the process until completion.  For normal driving without a regen. cycle started no warnings may come on. Regen. carries a high risk of engine fire and if the design parameters being measured are not met, regen. will be stopped with a MIL fault warning. Once the MIL warning comes on regen. will never start until the source of error is found and cleared. In a worst case, a dpf warning and MIL can come on when the soot level has exceeded their preset limit and you need a new expensive dpf. They stop regen. because a fully soot loaded dpf could be a fire risk during a regen.

 

Regen. is a totally different and extended process to normal engine running. Exhaust temperatures will only rise far above normal during regen, the air supply full restriction will only occur during regen. and during this time the system is monitoring air vacuum and pressure levels to get what it expects to see. The fuel injectors are double pulsing to push diesel fuel into the cylinders after combustion and just before the exhaust cycle. The throttle valve is more closed to starve the engine of oxygen to create more heat in the exhaust and dpf.

 

It doesn't surprise me that you can do a 150km drive when regen. might have started and then aborted itself to avoid your vehicle bursting into flames. What I don't know is how many short journeys you can do with the regen. waiting for the right conditions before it restarts?  I think replacing a temperature sensor is a pretty weak answer to your fault. It may seem hard to accept when a problem is smoothed over by the dealer, but I would want to see the EGR cooler, inlet manifold, PCV and throttle valve inspected and cleaned. That is expensive labor, particularly on the 4X4. I know you can look at the throttle valve with a snake cam and 15 minutes work, but I don't know how easy it would be to do the same thing on the EGR valve at the back. Cleaning doesn't stop the whole system sooting and gumming up later, but at least you will know you are starting with a clean engine.

 

I'm keeping off the subject of remaps and dpf bypass because this thread discussion is about faults ocurring after the Skoda ECU fix.

.

On 13/10/2017 at 18:43, Frenchtone said:

when asked about the fix, I refused, I got the'usual' spiel, n adverse effects afterwards, must be something in the French air here, was asked to sign a refusal disclaimer, which I did, however still get letters advising me to take the 'fix'!

 

same here with the (Service) dealership down in Bergerac

 

had both cars serviced in November, refused the FIX - (NOX I think the French call it), quite an event with the secretary who typed out the usual French "Statement" for me to sign which covered one side of an A4 sheet had to write in my fair hand the usual "lu et approuve" before my signature and they said that they would send it to VW

 

(interestingly he said that no-one else had refused "the FIX" and that they had not had any problems resulting from such, he mumbled something about "the English" to the secretary)

Edited 19 December, 20178 yr by BillN_33

I would expect the dealer to say there were no problems with others. They wouldn't return a vehicle if it had problems. The problems are arising with TDis later on with or without the fix and the fix is either making problems arise sooner or is a contributing factor?

 

On EA189 TDi engines they are only applying a software change, scanning the car and probably noting the various stored values e.g soot and ash levels in the dpf to send to the mothership. They may even force a regen., although what is more likely is the software patch resets the regen. counter and it happens soon after if the car is driven at the right speeds for the right length of time. That would explain why my coolant fans were coming on when parked soon after getting it fixed and for the next few days before I worked it out. I never had this behaviour from the cooling fans before. If they have raised the regen. temperature they would probably need to bring the engine bay fans on after stopping to prevent a fire?  My Yeti was trying to do a regen. but my journey back from the workshop was too short?

 

Nobody seems to be looking at the condition of the emissions control components before applying the fix, which makes it difficult to say for sure if the fix is a contributor to failure or not. In my case I had the EGR and cooler replaced on a so called 'goodwill' arrangement before I had the ECU fix.  After the fix, my Yeti ran for a year before putting up the throttle valve fault. When I took it apart, the amount of gunge and sooting in it and the inlet manifold could not have come from a year of low mileage and infrequent use post ECU fix. It had built up over 50k miles. The dealer had 2 opportunities to do a thorough job. Once when they replaced the EGR and cooler and a second time when they applied the ECU fix. The kind of build up you get is not like the hard carbonizing in gasoline engines. It is horrible black sludgy gunk!

 

The workshop did the minimum work needed to put the fault light out and left the car with its remaining emission control parts (TV) in a poor state. If I had done my own work I would have gone further, even sending the dpf away for ultrasonic cleaning. Don't be fooled by the bright shiny external appearance of the emissions parts, which underneath can be full of black sludge and gunge.

 

If you want to conclude a positive link to the ECU fix for faults arising afterwards, you need to show all those modified vehicles were in the same condition or clean of soot and gunge to start with. My suspicion is the fix initially is showing up the poor condition of most EA189 engines with some mileage on them not regularly driven on motorways? Longer term, there may be other consequences of the fix for the reliability of parts and service life of the dpf. I'm not supporting their fix, just trying to put the other side.

 

 

Edited 20 December, 20178 yr by voxmagna

I take it that the top of the range Audi diesels are ultimately no better in terms of EGR cooler and intake manifold fouling.

Is the latest range of JLR diesels saddled with the same affliction?.

BWM?.

Mercedes?.

Of course they tend to be bought as company vehicles and problems (if any actually happen in the relatively short ownership period)  written off against profits.

^^^ Those top of the range Audi & Porsche are under further investigations because all was not as it seemed and the Emissions Controls might not have been controlling or reducing emissions.

JLR are no stupid they were going into production arrangements with VW / Skoda on platforms, and not sure they still are.  JLR / TATA not being that stupid as to trust 

VW Boards of management, or maybe the 'couple of technicians' that went rogue.

8 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

^^^ Those top of the range Audi & Porsche are under further investigations because all was not as it seemed and the Emissions Controls might not have been controlling or reducing emissions.

JLR are no stupid they were going into production arrangements with VW / Skoda on platforms, and not sure they still are.  JLR / TATA not being that stupid as to trust 

VW Boards of management, or maybe the 'couple of technicians' that went rogue.

I doubt we’ll ever have another diesel simply because of the fouling issues apparently endemic to all diesel engine designs.

Plus the hopeless accessibility problem making the economy figures dubious.

Quote

 

I doubt we’ll ever have another diesel simply because of the fouling issues apparently endemic to all diesel engine designs.

Plus the hopeless accessibility (and cost!) problem making the economy figures dubious.

 

 

That would be my personal opinion to.  They had to go through hoops and a software cheat to get their new EA189 design through the later more stringent tests. Anything retrospective they do afterwards is 'suspect' for negative reasons, because you would have expected them to have done that during the design and laboratory testing stages.  When designing to meet technical standards I would try to achieve an order better in real terms than standards require. The design engineers may have initially done that, until the bean counters came along and said the engine was too expensive to deliver the profits they wanted?

I wonder if there are benefits beyond the reduced CO2 emitted -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-12-18/australian-canola-approved-as-low-emission-fuel-for-europe/9269232

2 hours ago, Ryeman said:

I wonder if there are benefits beyond the reduced CO2 emitted -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-12-18/australian-canola-approved-as-low-emission-fuel-for-europe/9269232

I don't think there is any benefit other than the co2 reduction from utilising a relatively efficiently produced bio-fuel source.

 

However this old news story specifically mentioned 30% NOX reduction in tests utilising compounds retrieved from old tyres.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-28/new-life-for-old-tyres-as-biofuel/8064350

Not sure how the product can be classified as a 'bio-fuel' and I'm sure there are problems that have not been mentioned purely because no-one else is jumping on this particular bandwagon.

Interesting none the less.

 

If I had the really older diesels, a tractor or Landrover 110 without the emissions controls, I'd have no problem with bio diesel. But I'm sure I've either read it on VW fuel flaps or in the manual NOT to use bio-diesel?

 

With the high cost of working on these engine emissions components and their replacement, I've always avoided the bio fuels. When you add the kind of extra complexity these new engines have with or without the ECU fix, you would want to be 100% sure of using an alternative fuel. Geeze,  they don't work reliably with low cost of ownership using the fuels they were designed for. Not sure where to head off to in the forum, but I'd like to hear more from Skoda owners doing their own work who have replaced their EGR's, TVs, DPFs etc. When I looked at the Yeti 4X4 EGR replacement shop procedure requiring front driveshafts to be lowered and a days Skoda workshop time, it scared the **** out of me!

 

Following my recent work where I disconnected many smallish parts across the top of the engine to gain better access, I'm more inclined to remove more now to save time overall.  I'm also wondering for DIY repairs if the best approach is to disconnect as much of the engine and peripherals as possible, lower it on the front sub-frame with an engine hoist (or lift the body?), then lift it back and re-align the sub-frame.  I can't run to a garage 2/4 post lift, but a mobile engine hoist is affordable and would be a useful piece of kit for a number of tasks?

Edited 21 December, 20178 yr by voxmagna

On 17/12/2017 at 12:22, walterhein said:

Hi to all involved in this prevailing thread!

Had a strange experience last night with my EA189 after drving off the ferry in Dover. As I left the harbour area to drive onto the A2, the EGR/DPF warning light came on. Why, I asked myself, does this light come on after having driven from Frankfurt to Calais (600km) in 5hours and 30minutes before driving straight on to the ferry. This light stayed on until parking the car 2hours later in London. Luckily, this morning after starting the car, it didn't come on!

I am confused and puzzled! My car had the "Fix" done in September 17 and I had noticed the electric fan running at "odd occassions" when this device didn't operate in the past; never connecting it to the "Fix". However, after reading your experiences, things do fall into place and I am a little worried!

Bought my car in 2012 in Canterbury and now live in Frankfurt. Do the Frankfurt to London run about 5 to 6 times a year and drive 2/3 of my milage on the motorways. Have clocked 107,000 km in just under 6 years.

Happy Christmas!

 

walterhein

 

similar driving experiences to you Walter - 12 trips a year, ( 6 x 2) on the Autoroute back to the UK and back to near Bordeaux - 650kms each way - Yeti 4x4 and 7 years old with over 100,000 kms

Did not have the fix ....... the EGR/DPF warning light has NEVER come on

 

I don't think the car has ever "regenerated"

Edited 21 December, 20178 yr by BillN_33