51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

So that is a bit more the 160 miles but as you say doing a fair bit of 70 mph.  

 

Renault do a range figurer on their French website   https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/zoe.html     Huge difference from travelling at 130 kph compared to the slower speeds, sometimes a choice  of taking the more direct A road rather than the longer but quicker Motorway  can make a massive difference.

 

We need a big rollout plan ie every larger petrol station and McDonalds to have a 14 kWh, 21 kWh,  43 kWh or better and then  EV drivers will know that there is a decent  charger relatively close by.     

 

  

 

yeah I reckon that it is safe to work with 140 mile range but apparently if you're doing  longer trips (ie more than 280 miles) ,to ensure you can keep rapid charging for more than two charges you need to charge when you get down to around 30% and not charge up beyond 80% on the rapid chargers. If you only need to rapid charge twice than you can do 3 X 140 miles and charge as you like and after 2 top ups (ie 3 x 140 miles) you'll hit rapid gate and the charge rate will slow radically.

 

If you look at sites like http://chargeplacescotland.org/ you can see there are a lot more chargers than you realise. Locally I have more chargers available than there are petrol stations.

Edited 11 August, 20187 yr by domhnall

13 hours ago, domhnall said:

I thought that too until I discovered the cost of a leaf was the same as getting another octavia. But now I'll save £1000 a year on petrol and £140 VED. Servicing is cheaper too. 

 

Only downside is that Nissan dealers appear to be crappy. And the internal finish of the leaf feels cheaper than the octavia. 

 

 

Yea but the leaf is smaller than an Octavia and you can't get it in an estate either.

 

Also, Nissan leafs don't have a proper battery cooling system like Tesla do so the batteries will probably degrade faster and you can't charge it as fast either. This does mean that if you plan on a really long journey where you drive, charge, drive charge etc. there will be a point where it will start to complain.

17 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

Yea but the leaf is smaller than an Octavia and you can't get it in an estate either.

 

Also, Nissan leafs don't have a proper battery cooling system like Tesla do so the batteries will probably degrade faster and you can't charge it as fast either. This does mean that if you plan on a really long journey where you drive, charge, drive charge etc. there will be a point where it will start to complain.

 

Yes, agreed. I had 6 octavias and the last 4 were estates. But I only got those because I didn't like the fabia and then the rapid. I didn't need a car that size.

 

As for range you're right, if you regularly do 400-500 Mile drives you'll be better off in a diesel. 

 

I don't often do drives much more than 300 miles so I'm OK I reckon. 

 

Charge 1 at home

Rapid Charge 1 at 140 Miles

Rapid Charge 2 at 280 miles 

Charge at 420 miles will be slower

 

Most people don't do that sort of drive very often if at all. So the current ev will do the job. In 2 years time VAG and others will have much better options for us. 

Ps there's a guy on you tube who did a trip from west lothian to Milton Keynes in a new leaf. Didn't hit the rapidgate problem by working out how to avoid it by charging at the right time for the right duration. It is more fiddly than just jumping in and driving a petrol or diesel car for sure. In 2 years I reckon the new EVs that are coming will make it much simpler. 

The Scottish Government have announced in their 'Programme for Government' another 16.7 million towards Green Transport over and above the 20 million previously pledged.

This is supposedly towards 100 Electric Busses and 1,500 Electric Charging points.

The money previously mentioned is for the Grants etc to get businesses and individuals changing to EV's and alternative fuels or means of transport.

Time will tell.

£16.7m Scottish Government funding for electric vehicle charging points and green buses _ Holyrood Magazine.mhtml

14 hours ago, Offski said:

The Scottish Government have announced in their 'Programme for Government' another 16.7 million towards Green Transport over and above the 20 million previously pledged.

This is supposedly towards 100 Electric Busses and 1,500 Electric Charging points.

The money previously mentioned is for the Grants etc to get businesses and individuals changing to EV's and alternative fuels or means of transport.

Time will tell.

£16.7m Scottish Government funding for electric vehicle charging points and green buses _ Holyrood Magazine.mhtml

 

 

I've joined an EV forum (where I have found a number of Briskoda members too) and the general consensus among EV owners in England is that the system there is a shambles and they look with envy North of the border where we generally have one network which the Scottish government has set the direction and taken control to ensure there is a consistent user experience. One card from Chargeplace Scotland and I can use nearly all the chargers across the country. A similar system operates across the island of Ireland. In England you need to have multiple cards, or RFID fobs or apps just to be able to fill up your car. 

Edited 5 September, 20187 yr by domhnall

Dundee : City of Discovery and becoming Electric City.

 

 

 

On 11/08/2018 at 11:02, xman said:

Whenever I've done quick calcs of running costs EV vs normal car (p/mile), based on what I pay for electricity, it'says turned out not a great deal better maybe 20%. Of course that is comparing a mini sized toy EV against my supersize Superb. I suppose if you have solar panels and don't travel too far a field it might be better. But I am certain that government will in time tax electricity in line with petrol and then it makes no sense at all.

 

If you take total cost of ownership over time, which is maybe a more realistic metric, I don't see pure EV makes much sense at all.

 

IMO plug in mild hybrid is the way to go.

 

 

Yes, it does make sense. Don't forget that we are being forced to go EV because of climate change and oil is running out and will run out. At the moment nearly a third of the UK's electricity is from renewable sources. In just 11 years 80% of our electricity will be from clean energy of renewables and nuclear (source: ONS). CO2 at end point will be zero from cars and from generating stations. The effect on the UK's CO2 levels will be huge, dropping by over 50%. 

 

EV's will also become so much better. With the announcement of 'electric goo' for batteries by Sheiffield Universisty this mean EV's will go for upto 1000 miles of range on one change and fully charge up in 20-30 mins or quicker depending on size of battery. It's only going to be 5-7 years before we see this technology in EV's. In the meantime I drove the Hyundai Ioniq a few days ago. It was amazing! Fast, comfortable, quiet and with all mod cons. 

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:02, xman said:

Whenever I've done quick calcs of running costs EV vs normal car (p/mile), based on what I pay for electricity, it'says turned out not a great deal better maybe 20%. Of course that is comparing a mini sized toy EV against my supersize Superb. I suppose if you have solar panels and don't travel too far a field it might be better. But I am certain that government will in time tax electricity in line with petrol and then it makes no sense at all.

 

If you take total cost of ownership over time, which is maybe a more realistic metric, I don't see pure EV makes much sense at all.

 

IMO plug in mild hybrid is the way to go.

I don't think you have done your calculations correctly.

 

My real world numbers beg to differ:

 

		Skoda Octavia	Nissa Leaf
Last updated:		12/10/2018	01/10/2018
Years of ownership:	years	1.37	0.94
Car purchase price		£8,800.00	£9,072.28
Estimated car value		£6,289.84
Depreciation Cost	Per year	£1,828.76	£1,704.09
(Leaf is PCP cost)	Per month	£152.40	£142.01
Road tax	Per year	£30.00	£0.00
Servicing	Total:	£649.99	£208.12
	Per year:	£473.55	£208.12
MPG or mi/KWh	Overall:	55.35	3.93
Litres or KWh	Recorded:	940	2,484
Miles	Recorded:	11,444	9,771
	Per year:	8,338	10,428
	Rolling avg	6,184
Fuel	Recorded:	£1,159.85	£248.39
	Per year:	£845.00	£265.09
	Rolling avg	£643.34
	Per mile	£0.1013	£0.0254
Average cost	Per year	£3,614.43	£2,177.31
(ex Insurance)	Per month	£301.20	£181.44

 

• Insurance is about the same for both cars. Octavia under my name with 8 yr NCD, Leaf under my wife's name with 3 yr NCD. Both includes commute.
• Octavia servicing includes a timing belt change and non-dealer minor servicing + MOT. Leaf includes a dealer major servicing and MOT. There is additional £180 pending on Octavia this week for DSG oil change, zero pending on the Leaf until next servicing.
• Tyres excluded, but for completeness: I'm paying £420 for Michelin CC+ on Octavia fitted next week, while I changed out 2 budget tyre came with Leaf during MOT for Goodyear at £180. I expect the tyres on Leaf to last until end of PCP, where we have yet to decide whether to keep the car or not.
• Fuel cost calculation is based on 10p/kWh. I pay 8p/kWh charging my Leaf on E7. I've used public charger a handful of times, but no where enough to rise average to 10p/kWh. 10p was used as an overestimate to ensure my budgeting is always more than reality.

 

So I've saved £700+ in fuel by driving the EV when wife doesn't need it.  Driving EV is about 40% cheaper in fuel than equivalent 55+mpg diesel. The ONLY reason I still have Octavia is for long trips, where driving EV would rely on the shockingly bad public charging infrastructure. Really need 4+ working rapid charger at each motorway service stations to enable long distance travel.

 

End of PCP, when Leaf is 6 yr old, we are likely to keep the Leaf for my wife as local runabout for foreseeable future. I'd have preferred a car with adaptive cruise like on my Octy, but with the high demand for EV these days, it would not be financially sound. Besides, she never uses any of those features. I'm hopeful soon after 2020, I'd be able to change the Octavia to Tesla Model 3, and rely on superb Tesla Supercharger network for long distance travel.

On the subject of EV's in the UK and globally.

I take it that those using cars daily or just regularly that fit winter suitable tyres to their ICE vehicles will be wanting to do the same to the EV's they will be using in winter 

rather than the ECO / Summer or 3 season tyres that they come with and Dealership will make these available, do swap overs, do wheel / tyre storage as BMW do.

Also that Lease & Hire Companies will understand the need for some to have suitable tyres on cars during winter, or even Autumn & Spring.

 

 

 

Edited 22 October, 20187 yr by Offski

I'm fitting all-season onto Octy and plan to drive it exclusively when it snows, or when temperature drops below freezing. Saving a set of winter wheels for our Leaf.

 

Last winter, in the snow, I've found the budget tyre EV to be easier to drive than Dunlop non-eco summer tyre equipped Octavia.  The electric motor is always connected, no clutch and perfect control at 0rpm means I can easily make the wheel slowly turn to avoid wheel spin. Combine regen brakes and ultra-fine control of the wheel torque, I found Leaf to be really good at both slowing down and getting going.

 

However, watch out for the first few miles where regenerative braking isn't enabled, having to rely on friction brakes are scarier than driving ICE due to lack of engine braking. Solution would be don't charge to 100%, but winter is exactly when I'd need the extra charge.

50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I don't think you have done your calculations correctly.

 

My real world numbers beg to differ:

 

		Skoda Octavia	Nissa Leaf
Last updated:		12/10/2018	01/10/2018
Years of ownership:	years	1.37	0.94
Car purchase price		£8,800.00	£9,072.28
Estimated car value		£6,289.84
Depreciation Cost	Per year	£1,828.76	£1,704.09
(Leaf is PCP cost)	Per month	£152.40	£142.01
Road tax	Per year	£30.00	£0.00
Servicing	Total:	£649.99	£208.12
	Per year:	£473.55	£208.12
MPG or mi/KWh	Overall:	55.35	3.93
Litres or KWh	Recorded:	940	2,484
Miles	Recorded:	11,444	9,771
	Per year:	8,338	10,428
	Rolling avg	6,184
Fuel	Recorded:	£1,159.85	£248.39
	Per year:	£845.00	£265.09
	Rolling avg	£643.34
	Per mile	£0.1013	£0.0254
Average cost	Per year	£3,614.43	£2,177.31
(ex Insurance)	Per month	£301.20	£181.44

 

• Insurance is about the same for both cars. Octavia under my name with 8 yr NCD, Leaf under my wife's name with 3 yr NCD. Both includes commute.
• Octavia servicing includes a timing belt change and non-dealer minor servicing + MOT. Leaf includes a dealer major servicing and MOT. There is additional £180 pending on Octavia this week for DSG oil change, zero pending on the Leaf until next servicing.
• Tyres excluded, but for completeness: I'm paying £420 for Michelin CC+ on Octavia fitted next week, while I changed out 2 budget tyre came with Leaf during MOT for Goodyear at £180. I expect the tyres on Leaf to last until end of PCP, where we have yet to decide whether to keep the car or not.
• Fuel cost calculation is based on 10p/kWh. I pay 8p/kWh charging my Leaf on E7. I've used public charger a handful of times, but no where enough to rise average to 10p/kWh. 10p was used as an overestimate to ensure my budgeting is always more than reality.

 

So I've saved £700+ in fuel by driving the EV when wife doesn't need it.  Driving EV is about 40% cheaper in fuel than equivalent 55+mpg diesel. The ONLY reason I still have Octavia is for long trips, where driving EV would rely on the shockingly bad public charging infrastructure. Really need 4+ working rapid charger at each motorway service stations to enable long distance travel.

 

End of PCP, when Leaf is 6 yr old, we are likely to keep the Leaf for my wife as local runabout for foreseeable future. I'd have preferred a car with adaptive cruise like on my Octy, but with the high demand for EV these days, it would not be financially sound. Besides, she never uses any of those features. I'm hopeful soon after 2020, I'd be able to change the Octavia to Tesla Model 3, and rely on superb Tesla Supercharger network for long distance travel.

 

Fair enough.

 

Have you included upfront deposit and balloon payment costs for the leafs PCP?

 

£473 annual servicing costs when you do 8000 miles a year is unrealistic if comparing like with like. Most car owners will have one service annually at an average of  maybe £200.

 

Your electricity costs considerably less than mine but then you are subsidising your EV with higher day time rates.

 

I can't comment on how a leaf compares to an Octavia from a practicality point of view, 5 adults, baggage and 70mph+ sustained long distance journeys.

 

Simple though, my sons both do about 20k a year with work need to do regular 300+ mile journeys without stopping to refuel and certainly with 12+ hour days no time to faff about waiting for recharge.

 

We all know that what kills ICE v EV costs is the collosal difference in tax treatment. Considering the income the government stands to lose, it's only a matter of time before that changes the calcs.

7 minutes ago, xman said:

Have you included upfront deposit and balloon payment costs for the leafs PCP?

 

£473 annual servicing costs when you do 8000 miles a year is unrealistic if comparing like with like. Most car owners will have one service annually at an average of  maybe £200.

 

Your electricity costs considerably less than mine but then you are subsidising your EV with higher day time rates.

 

I can't comment on how a leaf compares to an Octavia from a practicality point of view, 5 adults, baggage and 70mph+ sustained long distance journeys.

 

We all know that what kills ICE v EV costs is the collosal difference in tax treatment. Considering the income the government stands to lose, it's only a matter of time before that changes the calcs.

Yes, £114 pm PCP payment. £142 is including deposit and trade-in asset value over 3 years PCP term. Balloon payment is included in the £9100 car cost.

 

As said, £650 over my ownership was due to timing belt change. Skoda says the £500 timing belt will last 5 years, £180 DSG oil will last 40k, so you have to remember that's average of £145 a year on top of your avg £200 yearly servicing. In comparison, EV powertrain has no annual maintenance requirements, a £65 coolant change every 5 years and that's it.

 

Day rate is subsidised by my years old roof top solar PV install.  The combination of switch to E7, moving dishwasher and washing to E7 period when not sunny, plus EV for 1 year, I am £140 in debt to my energy company (direct debit unchanged), actually a lot less than what I have shown in my calculation. Besides, E7 is 8p or 14p, regular is 12p, hardly much more expensive during the day.

 

Any EV other than a Tesla is unsuitable for long distance driving. There's no hiding the fact public charging infrastructure is shockingly bad at the moment. This is why we have a dirty diesel   At the moment, EV ownership is highly situational dependent. regular 300 miles a day is simply not suitable to buy anything other than diesel.

 

The government doesn't add tax retrospectively. There is also no way to tax home charging. Therefore I don't see my cost to own an old EV change, ever. My Leaf ownership can only get cheaper as depreciation lessens and I do DIY servicing. So moral of the story would be: get an EV asap  

The real story here is that EV are a LOT more efficient. Per unit of energy, electricity are more expensive than diesel from the pump, yet it costs a lot less to run an EV. The government can tax all they like at public infrastructure, but home charging can't be policed, so for local drives, EV will always be the cheapest.

If you say so

There is an awkward contradiction facing governments. They are under pressure to invest in an electric vehicle infrastructure just as the take-up of EVs threatens to make a big hole in the tax take from motorists. Per an earlier comment, they will find a way to recover the lost revenue.

One method would be to introduce mileage-based taxation for all vehicles, probably banded by type, with duty on ICE fuels on top. Tracking mileage might be challenging but the MOT would cover older vehicles and newer ones could be subject to a compulsory odometer reading once per year. Eventually there will probably be a tracker in every vehicle anyway.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-tesla-supercharger-can-give-1000-miles-charge-hour

 

For your Model 3 when it arrives.

 

Edited 7 March, 20197 yr by vrskeith

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renault-scheme-transforms-evs-energy-storage-units

 

Hmm all Nissan leafs have that built in and always have had it. 

34 minutes ago, domhnall said:

Hmm all Nissan leafs have that built in and always have had it. 

Even in my 5 years old 2014 Nissan Leaf.....

 

And some people say old EV will be out of date quickly. It's completely untrue, unfunded assumption.

'Lack of Electric Charging Points putting people / drivers off.'    A BBC Investigation.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47696839

Maybe not that accurate / current when you look at Milton Keynes site and numbers.

 

(Not sure on chargers by area in Scotland,

seems to have missed Dundee, on the graph. Or is it just out of the top ten.

Says here 60+ Public charging points. http://drivedundeeelectric.co.uk/in-dundee

A city of less than 150,000 population and just a small area bordered by Angus & Perth with Suburbs in both those areas.

 

Map has Fife, Perth & Kinross, Angus,  Aberdeenshire & Aberdeen City.

Not having data for Glasgow is an odd one considering just how many 'official figures Glasgow release on EV charging points.

Latest site i read says they operate over 80 EV Charging points.

 

 

Edited 5 April, 20197 yr by Skoffski

Quote

 

RAC research has found the lack of charging infrastructure is one of the three main barriers for electric vehicle take-up along with range anxiety and high upfront vehicle costs.

 

(from the Beeb article)

The other two are non existence if people actually try and live with the car.

 

The Leaf owner in the article is an idiot. We are still in wild west days with EV infrastructure, membership requirement and random RFID cards lift and right. You'd think he would research his journey before setting off, look at what chargers are available and what network they are on.

 

Unfortunately currently, only a Tesla doesn't require you to research the public charging networks and charger availability.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

The other two are non existence if people actually try and live with the car

Did you read your posting before making it? What you've said to me is "you have to plan your route around the capabilities of the vehicle and the charger network rather than where you would like to go".

2 hours ago, Skoffski said:

'Lack of Electric Charging Points putting people / drivers off.'    A BBC Investigation.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47696839

Maybe not that accurate / current when you look at Milton Keynes site and numbers.

That map is clearly *******s. I live in Denbighshire, which shows an average distance between charge points of 2.33km - There are 5 or 6 (depends if you count A55 services in both directions as one facility) public charge points according to Zap Map, covering an area of 855 square KM. So clearly wrong. I know I'll need to charge at home when I get an EV and that suits me.

Edited 5 April, 20197 yr by Luckypants

Averages are always nonsense.   If you have a few chargers a meter apart from each other, or quite a few another couple of milesaway and a meter apart then that skews the average.  Loads not near, and a few close together.

The averages distance apart that are shown anyplace for the Highlands of Scotland are always going to be just silly.

Highlands and Islands as well.

 

But that is just how statistics and averages are on everything, car ownership, public transport, incomes, cost of living.

 

Milton Keynes is square 89 Km

 

Dundee City is square 60 Km  and has over 60 public EV chargers.

Edinburgh is square 264 Km & Fife is square 1,325 Km

 

Aberdeenshire is square 6,313 Km.

Lots of ground area with no public roads crossing it. 

Even more so in the Highland district of Scotland, but people have long distances to travel around the areas.

 

6 years on and the Scottish Government need to meet the 50 mile apart as a max then they will be getting someplace and so can drivers of EV's.

No point talking about 'average' distances apart as they have been doing recently.

If chargers are out of use then Mobile Chargers / on trailers with Battery Packs should be available to be taken to that chargers location and priority given to have the chargers being operational.

That is not that far fetched.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21346299

 

Edited 5 April, 20197 yr by Skoffski

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Did you read your posting before making it? What you've said to me is "you have to plan your route around the capabilities of the vehicle and the charger network rather than where you would like to go".

And you don't plan your route when driving long distance because?

How many years had petrol stations been around? How many years have rapid chargers been around?

 

Have you read what the last sentence of my previous post? 

 

Contactless ad-hoc charging is coming, charging company doesn't like it because it can no sell memberships. But more and more chargers are installed with contactless payment capabilities. In a few years time this will no longer be a problem. It's already non-issue in London where TFL subsidised chargers require contactless payment as an option.