Yes that's often true Crassus. To get the automatic box on the C3 you have to buy either the girlie 'Elle' model and spec the top engine for it, or the 'Flair' top specification model. This does make the automatic an expensive option. But in truth I don't mind my car coming with just about every conceivable extra. It will be nice to have some luxury for a change! 

Ok guys and girls, the deed is done! Ordered the new C3 Flair with 110ps Puretech engine & auto box. Far too many extras come with it as standard to even mention, but you name it and it's got it. Used my local dealer. In the end he came very close to the CarWow folks. So it does go to show that if you negotiate with purpose based upon what is realistic, you can often get that good deal. I saved thousands. This will hopefully mean we get the goodwill of our local dealer and they will always go the extra mile for us. 

 

On the other hand, yesterday I had a horrendous 220 mile drive in the Skoda Fabia. The car went great and returned an overall pencil and paper 60.6mpg for the day.  A figure that tallied very well with the onboard trip computer figure of 60.9mpg!  I was involved in every type of traffic situation and I really appreciated the Skoda's very generous availabiltiy of torque at times. My speeds varied from crawling along in 2nd gear for a mile at a time to gliding along at 75mph (not on the M25 I would add due to cameras). Inevitably, the fuel consumption suffered due to this traffic. Had it been a clearer run, I have no doubt I would have achieved in the region of 65-66mpg or thereabouts as I've managed in the past. I had to use the M25 and then on to middle England. The traffic was worse than I had seen for many a year, and so were the accidents on the M25. But Android Auto and Google girl got me round the worst of it without too many problems. Must say I think I still prefer Android Auto on my Android phone to using Apple carplay on my i-phone, but that's just me. Tried Waze instead of Android Auto and that was good but still prefering AA instead. 

 

Yesterday I again drove another new C3 with the auto box. In total I've driven 4 of them clocking up around 80 miles of testing. Yesterdays run was quite a lengthy drive covering a variety of slow and faster roads. The one thing that particularly struck me haveing gotten out of the Fabia and straight into the C3 was just how much difference there is in the ride comfort of the Skoda Fabia and the C3. It's also much quieter on the move. Yes, I've been aware of all this ever since starting my search for the right C3 deal, but yesterday was the perfect chance to compare the cars over bigger distances on all roads, and driving each vehicle one after the other. The Skoda is for me a great car, but with a very crashy bumpy ride, inline with most other vehicles of it's type. And mostly, I thought I was ok with that until recently. Although it's worthy of note the Skoda is probably better than most of it's competitors on that. But it's not until you try something different you start to think maybe there is a different (better?) way if you are not wanting to be a boy racer anymore. The C3 just doesn't seem to notice the potholes and bumps, gliding over them in a way that I don't think I've ever experienced in any smaller car. However, as said previously, it's not a boy racer car inspite of the extra power it has over the Skoda.

 

Anyhoo, you're all failures!! Not one of you lot saved me from myself...  In truth, I didn't want to be saved as I'd already done my home work regarding quality, reliability, economy, service and everything else. Being that as it is, you guys never stood a chance, but thanks anyway. 

 

I'll be around for ages and won't be leaving the site. But I will post a new car review for those that are interested when we take delivery of the car. Until then bye for now and thanks again.

Good luck Ian with your new car, do let us know how you get on with it.

 

Harry

 

 

But just to keep everything in perspective  June 2018

 

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/478/most-reliable-cars-rated-by-jd-power-uk

 

Looks like the link doesn't work but Skoda Fabia best in class for reliability second year running.

 

Harry

Edited 21 July, 20187 yr by horkin

Thanks Harry, will do! In truth, on the way to middle England where the vicar of Dibly resides, I kinda wondered if I was doing the right thing as the Skoda was going so well, as it always does of course. But then, getting out of the Skoda and into the C3 the plush cockpit of that car was very welcoming with everything nice and easy to hand and every conceivable driver aid. And almost beyond belief was the fact I was even more comfortable in the C3 after doing the cockpit settle in adjustments. Hit the road and right away I knew I had to have the car. That 205nm of torque at 1500rpm just chucks it down the road while maintaining a limosine type of ride. The EAT6 auto box remaining smooth and responsive at all times. 

 

The Skoda is a bit like that to of course, until you hit the first bumps and potholes. I actually drove the C3 over the very same 20 miles of roads that I had just half an hour earlier driven my Skoda on. Without denigrating the Skoda in any way, although it won't sound like that, it was a bit of a chalk and cheese situation. I threw the C3 throught the bends at 60mph, some of which were quite tight, and found not much difference between the Skoda and the C3, except for the fact of a little more body roll and a smoother ride around the bend in the C3. Regarding that body roll, it wasn't anything much more than the Skoda but it definitely was there. It's just how it's designed. Both great cars...but different in ride. Not everyone would like the C3 ride either I'm sure of that. Boy racers won't find it the best and it doesn't pretend to be a racing car. Anyhoo, I've just chosen my reg number...they hadn't got 007 regretably!

As with these surveys when linked in Briskoda i ask, 'Who here on Briskoda responded to the survey?' 

There are Which, JD Power / Auto Express type surveys and yet few on Briskoda say the took part or bother to say they did.

 

How are Fabia more reliable than a Polo, Ibiza or A1 with the same mechanics and software?

How bad are the other manufacturers cars considering the 1.4 TDI Coolant / Water pump issues & the few DSG issues with Fabia Mk3 in the UK or Globally.

 

'Neither issue were serious enough to affect the score on dependability'. 

 Well other than to those that own or lease the cars and find them not dependable while waiting to get them resolved because Skoda Dealerships say,

a characteristic, or they all do that, or 'Never heard of that'.

.

Edited 21 July, 20187 yr by Offski

15 minutes ago, horkin said:

But just to keep everything in perspective  June 2018

 

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/478/most-reliable-cars-rated-by-jd-power-uk

 

Looks like the link doesn't work but Skoda Fabia best in class for reliability second year running.

 

Harry

 

Yes I saw that Harry. I read up on the article in Auto Express concerning reliability of Skoda Fabia's. Although they come out pretty good they have slipped down to second place behind Suzuki and Kia, only because the Fabia is experiencing considerable extra problems, up by 40% over the previous year, and not because Kia or Suzuki has improved as such. Surprisingly this is due to issues with the DSG gearboxes and some other engine issues. Citroen has climbed up the ladder too but are behind Skoda. It's all very interesting and not as straight forward as you might think. but that's still a very good showing for Skoda Fabia. 

Edited 21 July, 20187 yr by Estate Man

I actually always respond to the JD Power survey Offski, and I know  a few folks on here that do as do a couple of my neighbours. But I know what you mean. Nationwide, there are thousands that do respond.

Good so that was an engine issue with your first car and a dsg with the replacement, but then neither of those issue are going to affect the score or the dependability of the Mk3 Fabia.

We just need to know how many of the likes of these were reported to Skoda, logged and accepted or just dismissed.

 

Electrical issues,  battery issues, Stop / Start issues obviously nothing to do with the Dependability mark score it down a half mark.

worry more about major things like how good they look at the dealership or on the low loader as you get a Dependable Courtesy car.

Maybe a dependable Octavia.

Edited 21 July, 20187 yr by Offski

It's a reliability test, that's all. JD Power have done a national survey and come up with the Fabia as the most reliable car in it's class.

 

Have a trip onto ANY of the Forums for any car from a Lexus to a Ford and be ready to learn about the problems ALL makes have.

 

Build quality can be a factor too and VW, Seat and Audi are all built into different body shells in different countries. 

 

Maybe we should do a survey of all those who owned a car for 5 years and never had a problem. Now that WOULD be revealing

 

Harry

 

 

Has it started to rust yet?

Horkin, the survey of those that have owned them for 5 years will be a fail as they were launched in 2014 and were slow in arriving in 2015.

But a survey of those that own and drive them is important, those that know the vehicles, pay to have them and the service and maintenance in and out of the manufacturers 3 year warranty in the UK.

Then those that buy used ones and ex lease ones and drive and own those.

 

PS

No Lexus available in the Fabia class, there is a VW, SEAT, Audi, Ford, Vauxhall, Dacia, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, KIA, Hyundai, Suzuki etc etc. Even a MG that used to get top of Surveys from the response of owners or was that sales staff with time on their hands.

Edited 21 July, 20187 yr by Offski

9 hours ago, Offski said:

 

How are Fabia more reliable than a Polo, Ibiza or A1 with the same mechanics and software?

 

 

Long time ago I know but the Ford Maverick was a Nissan Terrano. The Maverick was significantly worse in reliability terms.

 

Identical vehicles. The Maverick was judged to be poorer by the type of owner/driver that owned/used them and caused a significant reduction in reliability by the way they were maintained/looked after. In stark contrast to the careful maintenance adhered to by Nissan owners/users.

 

What wasn't explored was the relevant experience of the Ford & Nissan dealership Aftersales departments.

 

Bill 

10 hours ago, Estate Man said:

...That 205nm of torque at 1500rpm just chucks it down the road while maintaining a limosine type of ride...

The VW 1.2 TSI 110hp has 175Nm at 1400-4000 rpm and the 1.0 TSI 200Nm at 2000-3500 rpm. I haven't found any more info on the 110 PureTech about max torque rpm area - do you have facts on that?

 

Gongratulations on your new car btw! Please let us know how you like it once you get it and how is the consumption - It's after all a torque converter automatic which might give you unpleasant figures at least in town compared to DSG (though it's a lot nicer to use. I'd switch my DSG to an 8-speed ZF box any day...)

lawnmowerman, 

you might be interested in 'difflock' forum (pretty dead these days but still lots of old stuff there to read) http://forum.difflock.com 

if looking at 4x4's and offroading and the section with the Maverick & Terrano in it.

I has a Terrano and the beauty and attraction was how a reputation could kill values and mean you could pick up the good vehicle for much cheapness because people that did not have one would bad mouth them. Many picked up good Maverick or Terrano as bargains when faults really were minor.

Edited 22 July, 20187 yr by Offski

8 hours ago, teraja said:

The VW 1.2 TSI 110hp has 175Nm at 1400-4000 rpm and the 1.0 TSI 200Nm at 2000-3500 rpm. I haven't found any more info on the 110 PureTech about max torque rpm area - do you have facts on that?

 

Gongratulations on your new car btw! Please let us know how you like it once you get it and how is the consumption - It's after all a torque converter automatic which might give you unpleasant figures at least in town compared to DSG (though it's a lot nicer to use. I'd switch my DSG to an 8-speed ZF box any day...)

 

Hi teraja, Yes, the 1.2 Puretech engine used in the Citroen and indeed the Peugeot range of cars is available in different power outputs. You can view details on the Citroen or Peugeot website if you wish. In the C3 Flair that I am buying it produces 110ps with 205nm of torque at 1500rpm. The same engine is also available with 82ps, 118ps and 130ps power outputs. I believe I'm right in saying a 160ps version will also soon be available for use in bigger Citroen and Peugeot cars. It's an award winning engine and widely used in the PSA group. It's tried and trusted and it has a brilliant reliability record. The EAT6 torque converter gearbox is a new box. Although I say new it's been in use for about 2.5 years. It's been designed in conjunction with Aisin, one of the best auto gearbox designers and suppliers in the world. They have made gearboxes for VAG (the 6 spd tiptronic box in the Fabia's up to 2010) and every other major manufacturer over the years. Because the EAT6 gearbox has been designed to be very efficient it locks up quickly and it's very smooth changing the gears. It feels very similar to a DSG in use, you simply can't detect it has a torque converter. It has full auto mode, manual mode and sport. Citroen and Peugeot decided to avoid some of the issues that some DSG gearboxes owners are experiencing and develop the torque converter type of gearbox jointly with Aisin instead. This was to replace the Robotized 6 spd semi auto box used previously, which everyone hated as it was jerky and simply not nice. The great thing about this EAT6 box is that it has zero problems as it's using tried and tested uncomplicated technology which has been very refined and uses the latest computer technology.

 

Fuel consumption with this new EAT6 gearbox is comparable to a DSG gearbox as it is so efficient. For example, the C3 with the auto box and which is a slightly more powerful, bigger and heavier car achivies 46.3mpg around town (48.7mpg for the Fabia DSG), 57.6mpg combined (Fabia DSG 60.1mpg), and 67.3mpg extra urban (Fabia DSG 68.9). Those are of course just the official figures. I've driven about 80 miles in the C3 automatic and have to say it was not hard to get similar fuel consumption figures to my Skoda Fabia in normal driving. I like!

On 21/07/2018 at 12:16, Estate Man said:

But then, getting out of the Skoda and into the C3 the plush cockpit of that car was very welcoming with everything nice and easy to hand and every conceivable driver aid.

 

HVAC controls in the C3 are on the touch screen though, which is not handy nor safe while driving. It's a growing trend in economy cars as it's becoming cheaper to put HVAC controls on a screen then designing, manufacturing and storing knobs/buttons.

 

Personally I can't stand it.

 

Another annoyance with the C3 is how close the gas and brake pedal are together. Last winter I sat in a friend's with a Dr.Marten boots and I couldn't press the accelerator without pressing the brake pedal or vice versa. I was absolutely shocked and hadn't experienced similar problems in any other car. 

 

On my holiday this summer I hired a Clio Estate and even that car had a few head scratching inconveniences.  

 

This is why I love Italian and Japanese cars. They simply......make.....sense.

6 hours ago, Estate Man said:

 

Hi teraja, Yes, the 1.2 Puretech engine used in the Citroen and indeed the Peugeot range of cars is available in different power outputs. You can view details on the Citroen or Peugeot website if you wish. In the C3 Flair that I am buying it produces 110ps with 205nm of torque at 1500rpm. The same engine is also available with 82ps, 118ps and 130ps power outputs. I believe I'm right in saying a 160ps version will also soon be available for use in bigger Citroen and Peugeot cars. It's an award winning engine and widely used in the PSA group. It's tried and trusted and it has a brilliant reliability record. The EAT6 torque converter gearbox is a new box. Although I say new it's been in use for about 2.5 years. It's been designed in conjunction with Aisin, one of the best auto gearbox designers and suppliers in the world. They have made gearboxes for VAG (the 6 spd tiptronic box in the Fabia's up to 2010) and every other major manufacturer over the years. Because the EAT6 gearbox has been designed to be very efficient it locks up quickly and it's very smooth changing the gears. It feels very similar to a DSG in use, you simply can't detect it has a torque converter. It has full auto mode, manual mode and sport. Citroen and Peugeot decided to avoid some of the issues that some DSG gearboxes owners are experiencing and develop the torque converter type of gearbox jointly with Aisin instead. This was to replace the Robotized 6 spd semi auto box used previously, which everyone hated as it was jerky and simply not nice. The great thing about this EAT6 box is that it has zero problems as it's using tried and tested uncomplicated technology which has been very refined and uses the latest computer technology.

 

Fuel consumption with this new EAT6 gearbox is comparable to a DSG gearbox as it is so efficient. For example, the C3 with the auto box and which is a slightly more powerful, bigger and heavier car achivies 46.3mpg around town (48.7mpg for the Fabia DSG), 57.6mpg combined (Fabia DSG 60.1mpg), and 67.3mpg extra urban (Fabia DSG 68.9). Those are of course just the official figures. I've driven about 80 miles in the C3 automatic and have to say it was not hard to get similar fuel consumption figures to my Skoda Fabia in normal driving. I like!

Yeah and of course the 3 cylinder engine helps with the consumption (vs 1.2 tsi 4cyl), also good to hear "traditional" automatic transmissions are giving good figures nowadays as well.

 

About the torque still, actually I found the curve chart I was looking for: http://www.automobile-catalog.com/bigcurve/2018/2624705/peugeot_308_1_2_puretech_110.html

 

The VW 1.2TSI 110hp peaks to 175Nm at 1400rpm and has a flat curve maintaining max torque 175Nm until 4000rpm and then drops rather steep. The 1.0TSI has a cleverly designed torque curve as well - it climbs to 180Nm at 1500rpm, then to 200Nm at 2000rpm and maintains that until 3500rpm following a steep downhill.

 

The PureTech 110 looks nice as well, according to curve chart. It doesn't have a flat curve with max torque but the decline after 1500rpm is far from aggressive with about 180Nm still available at 4000rpm.

 

The advantage of a flat and wide max or high torque area is of course in gear changes as it's not needed to change gears as quickly to achieve efficient acceleration.

 

Interesting stuff Probably have to test my coworkers C3 some day.

 

One thing still about the extras available on the C3 - my colleague has the Finnish top spec as well but there was no adaptive cruise control or anything other than halogen basic headlights available? How is it in UK, do you have those in your ordered car?

Yes, these modern smaller turbocharged engines all have a nice power delivery. I particularly like the way my current 1.2TSI 4 cylinder engine delivers it's power. Very meaty. So I was keen to make sure any new car I buy can match it or even exceed it which the C3 does with very good instant acceleration. The other concern I had was engine noise from 3 cylinder engine units. I'm afraid I don't like the new 1.0TSI unit as it sounds far too busy and very noisy for me when pressed. That's unlike my current much more refined 1.2TSI unit. Not saying the 1.0TSI is very bad but definitely more viby and stressed when pressed (hey that rythms!). 

 

The interesting thing about the 1.2 Puretech is not just it's power delivery, but it's refinement. It's very quiet, in fact about as quiet as my 4 cylinder unit when pressed hard and it doesn't get raspy. For starters the Puretech engine doesn't rev as high as either my current 1.2TSI 4 cylinder unit or indeed, the 1.0TSI 3 cylinder engine. Redline is at 5500rpm on the Puretech unit, at least in the C3. It may differ in other models wih other power outputs. That compares to a higher rev ceiling in the Fabia's 1.0TSI units which doesn't help them to be a quiet engine. It is also very very hard to tell that the C3 with the Puretech is a 3 cylinder unit, whereas the Fabia's with the 3 cylinder units are very noticeably 3 cylinder engines as they transmit much more noise, thrum and vibration into the cabin.

 

Regarding the extras...the C3 'Flair' that I am getting (it's often called the 'shine' in other countries) does have just about everything. It has adaptive cruise control, speed limiter, automatic emergency braking, height adjustable halogen headlights, fog lights that turn with the front wheels, automatic climate control (so you don't need to fiddle with the onscreen controls once it's set), built in dash cam, auto lights, auto windscreen wipers, power folding, heated and adjustable mirrors, and pretty much anything else you can think of that a car should have. Far too many things to mention here and it out does the Fabia SEL models easily for equipment and functionality. The car will even diagnose engine or electrical problems on it's own through it's main 7" touch screen central computer. The only thing it doesn't have as standard is SAT NAV which is a £500 option, just like on the SEL Fabia's. I prefer to use Android Auto with my phone for that anyway. In addition, it's comes with a full size spare wheel as standard. On the note about the automatic climate controls being 'onscreen'. The reason so many manufacturers have gone that way is because you really don't need to fiddle with those controls on a regular basis. It's not like having manual aircon which requires tuning on the go and even turning off at times. You set and forget in the C3. It just works smoothly and quietly. 

 

Overall, it stacks up against other manufacturers cars vey well indeed and in many areas it does exceed and excell very well. But at the end of the day, it all depends on many factors as to whether someone likes it better or less than another car. Like Harry (Horkin) says, cars are a subjective thing to some extent and objective in many ways also. I like the C3's quietness, smoothness and power. I like it's slightly funky looks too. Those are the main reasons I am changing my Fabia for one, and not because the Fabia is in any way a bad car.

5 hours ago, Crassus said:

 

HVAC controls in the C3 are on the touch screen though, which is not handy nor safe while driving. It's a growing trend in economy cars as it's becoming cheaper to put HVAC controls on a screen then designing, manufacturing and storing knobs/buttons.

 

Personally I can't stand it.

 

Another annoyance with the C3 is how close the gas and brake pedal are together. Last winter I sat in a friend's with a Dr.Marten boots and I couldn't press the accelerator without pressing the brake pedal or vice versa. I was absolutely shocked and hadn't experienced similar problems in any other car. 

 

On my holiday this summer I hired a Clio Estate and even that car had a few head scratching inconveniences.  

 

This is why I love Italian and Japanese cars. They simply......make.....sense.

 

Yes, I have noted manufacturers are going touch screen on so many things now. I find it ok, particularly the automatic climate controls as they are a set and forget function, not needing to be fiddled with on a regular basis, unlike manual aircon. I did notice a little less space between clutch and brake when I drove the manual C3 but my size 11's with trainers on them didn't find it to be an issue. In the automatic there are of course only two pedals so it's not any sort of issue anyway. It could be more noticeable with Dr Martens though as they are not the ideal driving footwear in my book. They increase your footprint size considerably. 

 

Like you, I love Italian cars for the way they drive. I've had several over the years, Japanese cars too. 

50 minutes ago, Estate Man said:

. I find it ok, particularly the automatic climate controls as they are a set and forget function, not needing to be fiddled with on a regular basis

 

I am not sure climate control negates the need to adjust the temperature on a daily basis. If its scorching you need to set it to max AC to cool the car down quickly enough and then adjust it once it's cool enough. Further more the temperature in the UK can fluctuate from 28 to 14 degrees within days. In my BMW, changing temperature is second nature as it has separate knobs for driver and front passenger. Making adjustment on the go is second nature. Just reach for the nipple(knob) and twist. Touch screen can be useful but frequently used functions should be physical controls. 

 

Imagine the horror if the screen in the C3 becomes unresponsive while driving and you need to adjust the temperature. 

 

HVAC controls as side. I think the C3 has a smashing design that puts a smile on my face. I don't even mind the look of the Cactus. 

Edited 22 July, 20187 yr by Crassus

Yes, I too like the Cactus, Have you seen the very latest version, the facelifted one? It's brilliant and has the same mechanical as the C3 but with a bit more power. 118ps or 130ps I think is available too in the C4 from the 1.2 Puretech engine. Alas, it's a bit more car than we require. 

 

Regarding the climate controls being touch screen, I think it's just a matter of preference. Citroen has made it very easy to access the onscreen controls and it is actually no different to operating manual controls. In fact I started the C3 which had been out in the sun all morning (it was hot!), touched the climate control onscreen button and upped the fan speed and altered the temp in just the same amount of time as it would have taken with manual knobs and screwy things. The cabin interior temperature plummeted within a minute and I just altered the setting one more time as I was driving off the garage car park. Really, it was just the same as any manual system. You don't have to go searching for anything and the screen is very responsive. It really is no different to manual controls. The AC button is on display all the time at the side of the screen one touch and you are there with full screen buttons to operate, very easy to see and use. But once on the go no need to touch anything I found. The automatic climate control just kept everything to the temperature that I wanted.  

Edited 22 July, 20187 yr by Estate Man

13 hours ago, Offski said:

lawnmowerman, 

you might be interested in 'difflock' forum (pretty dead these days but still lots of old stuff there to read) http://forum.difflock.com 

if looking at 4x4's and offroading and the section with the Maverick & Terrano in it.

I has a Terrano and the beauty and attraction was how a reputation could kill values and mean you could pick up the good vehicle for much cheapness because people that did not have one would bad mouth them. Many picked up good Maverick or Terrano as bargains when faults really were minor.

 

Thanks for the link Offski. Nissan/Ford was a blip in my career - didn't last long though.

 

Landrovers were my thing having served my apprenticeship on them 50 years ago through good & bad. Used to visit Landrover trials regularly about 40 years ago - great fun! Holding my breath to see if/when/what replaces the Defender.

 

Bill   

On 22/07/2018 at 19:41, Estate Man said:

...It has adaptive cruise control, fog lights that turn with the front wheels...

Sorry but I have to double check these - can't find any mentions about these in the C3 manual. Are you sure your car will have the front radar unit as I'm almost sure these are only equipped with front camera on the window and don't have adaptive cruise, just the standard one? And my friend, who has a top spec C3 said he almost dropped the purchase because of lack of ACC. Otherwise he's been very happy with the car.

Hi teraja, 

 

The C3 does not actually have adaptive cruise control. I just checked again and it is the standard version of cruise along with speed limiter. Mistakenly I was thinking it was across the range with that feature, whereas It is only the C4 that has it. It isn't something I need so it's not a deal breaker for me. The adaptive cruise control on the test car was in fact a very expensive aftermarket kit. This had been especially arranged for a customer and is the reason it had that feature I've just found out. The car was then not bought by that customer and was being used as a demo model. 

Edited 24 July, 20187 yr by Estate Man