Hello. This is my  first time on this forum.

I have recently bought my first VAG group car, after 17 years of driving Volvos (V70 then XC70). I gave up on Volvo as the single highest cost was repairs - more even than depreciation, fuel etc).

My car is a Superb estate, 2016 (66) 190 TDI SEL auto. I haven't driven it much in the 2 months I have had it and am still unfamiliar with many of its features (too busy with work to go through the manual unfortunately!). Last week I had a towbar fitted (Westfalia detachable with dedicated electrics, installed by Professional Retrofits at Nuneaton - super). I collected the caravan from storage and took in the 2 miles to my home, for the caravan to be serviced. All fine. After the caravan service I hooked up the caravan and went to tow it off the drive. Our drive has a moderate slope, uphill on exiting, I estimate 6%. The car wouldn't pull the caravan. There wasn't enough power. Every time I tried I found that I couldn't get the revs up much beyond tickover speed, about 1100 rpm. When I put the car into park or neutral I found I could rev the engine, but only up to 2,500 rpm. Is this normal?

 

I phoned the supplying dealer, who had no clue.  I then disconnected the caravan electrics, thinking that maybe this was a factor (the car knows there's a trailer attached). It didn't seem to make any difference. Every time I tried to pull the caravan the car would actually start to move backwards, down the hill. Eventually I tried repeatedly, including (I think) getting up the engine speed more before putting the car into drive, and then by flooring the throttle one time the car did just about start pulling away. I got the car + caravan up onto the road. Then it seemed to be OK. I drove the two miles and put the caravan back into storage. When driving I found that I could put the car into manual and select a lower gear and take the revs up to whatever I wanted, e.g. 3,500 rpm. This with caravan in tow and electrics connected.

 

I know what you're thinking: this is a very heavy caravan and a very steep drive. Neither is the case. The caravan is Trigano Silver and weighs about 1,000Kg. The car can pull a caravan of double that weight. My drive is, I calculate, less than 6% slope. These cars are tested and certified to pull heavy caravans up 12% slopes.

 

The caravan handbrake was off. The caravan motor mover was disengaged. The caravan brakes had just been serviced ... although I can't guarantee that they hadn't seized by some misfortune at that moment - things were normal by the time the car was at the top of the drive.

The drive was snowy to some extent. Although the drive was clear under where the car was, I had moved the car over a few yards which I had just cleared of snow, so there might have been some snow in the tyres. However, the drive wheels were not slipping.

 

I am completely baffled by this event, and a little concerned. I changed my last car because it broke down twice, and bought a car still under warranty expecting good reliablity. But maybe I have something to learn. Thinking about this incident more, If I were in this position again I would be inclined to:

Turn off hill hold control

Turn off traction control

Put the car into manual gear selection and choose first gear

 

Would that have made any difference? No idea. But my guess is that, when I get the caravan out again in March, that everything will be just fine!

 

I would love to know if the engine speed in neutral is always limited to about 2,500 rpm. This is what caused me to think at the time that the car was in a fault mode. Now I think it may be normal behaviour.

 

Any thoughts gratefully accepted !

 

Alec

Ascot, Berkshire.

 

 

All I can offer on this is that they do seem to be limited to 2500 revs but I’ve found that if you put it into sport and turn traction co troll off you can rev it to the red line In neutral. 

 

I don’t know anything about the towing side as I don’t do that with mine but obviously something sounds amiss. 

 

Hope you get get it sorted. Or figure out what’s going on. 

Hey,

There is something amiss there for sure. Id be looking at the caravan brakes. I have the 150bhp manual and I have pulled a twin axle Hobby Caravan up a very steep slope without an issue. Also pull the boat in and out of the water on a steep incline slipway without an issue.

 

My first check would be the caravan brakes as I have had that before.

Were you pulling the caravan up the drive or trying to reverse it?

OP said he went to drive it of the drive slightly uphill. Must admit my first thought would also be the caravan brakes. 

Thanks for all these replies. So we've discovered that the 2500 rpm limit in neutral is normal. So maybe it was the caravan brakes stuck on, for the first metre or so. Caravan brakes do have odd characteristics. I should add that I disengaged the parking brake manually before attempting to pull away - yes, in forward direction.

Alec

The rev limiter in neutral is normal, some sort of protective system.

I have the same car although a manual version March 2017 model on a 17 plate. I've towed my caravan (mtplm 1500 kg) extensively - last year down to Lake Garda. It has gone up steep hills, steep ferry ramps and on one occasion  was forced into a hill start on a steep bit of the Fern Pass in Austria. Biggest problem was  stopping the drive wheels from slipping due to the torque forces. I cannot imagine that the auto version would perform much differently and would say there's definitely something wrong with your outfit if you can't get up a modest 6% slope.

John M

Sound like its in limp mode to me. Sounds like a daft question but are you sure its got full power if you floor it when its not towing?

 

That car should still accelerate well towing a measly ton.

The car rolling backwards is very odd.  Hill hold control should stop any rollback and releasing the foot brake should hold it stationary for a few seconds  to give you time to move your foot to the accelerator.

 

You could always test the stuck brake theory again by pulling on the caravan handbrake before setting off and see if it feels the same.  Don't pull too far forwards though as I've done this by accident (when using the motor mover to shift the caravan, not by car) and that pulled the caravan handbrake lever on really hard

 

Perhaps your jockey wheel became lodged on something temporarily?

 

190BHP is certainly enough power to tow something that light (as you'd expect).  I've towed our 1350kg 'van with my previous 170 Superb and now with my 280.

 

If all else fails upgrade to a 280

 

You'll be happier when not towing with a 280 that's for sure

 

Note that it has the same torque as the 190 - only the 4x4 traction would help in a towing scenario.

On 03/02/2019 at 19:21, AlecM said:

 I should add that I disengaged the parking brake manually before attempting to pull away - yes, 

My thoughts on this are that the car possibly rolled backwards while pulling away, activating the caravans braking system

13 minutes ago, SteHaworth said:

My thoughts on this are that the car possibly rolled backwards while pulling away, activating the caravans braking system

That's a good thought. Maybe?  I have established that the car is definitely NOT in limp mode, now. It could well be some result of what happened in the first 50cm of my pulling away. I'll have to do further experiments, but that can't now be until March as caravan in storage until then. I'll report then. Thanks for your input.

Alec

At these sort of speeds you are using nowhere near 190 hp.  Probably no more than 30-40 of them.

 

It is the torque that moves the caravan and peak torque will be at less than 2000 rpm so you don't need to rev the nuts off it.

 

Does sound odd and I would be looking at the DSG - is there anything in the system that restricts what the DSG will/won't do?

You said the driveway was a bit snowy?, could be the traction control killing it. I've had cars that don't move in slippy conditions even though the clutch was out and reving the nuts of it.

 

A mate of mine couldn't get his 190 dsg Passat of a very very moderate slope in snow

4 minutes ago, Q102 said:

You said the driveway was a bit snowy?, could be the traction control killing it. I've had cars that don't move in slippy conditions even though the clutch was out and reving the nuts of it.

 

A mate of mine couldn't get his 190 dsg Passat of a very very moderate slope in snow

 

This could well have been the problem. The car wasn't on snow, but there would have been some snow on the wheels. The wheels didn't spin.

This remains a mystery. The car now is fine. The combo was fine once it was at the top of the drive. Was it the caravan brakes locked temporarily? Was it traction control stopping the car revving because of some residual snow on the driving wheels?

I don't know. I do know that next time I will be more measured and think through the situation better (I was time pressured as had an appointment to keep at the caravan storage, and also I thought the car was faulty 'cos it wouldn't rev beyond 2.500 rpm in neutral). Maybe the thing to do is to turn off traction control and hill hold control before starting such a manoeuvre, and perhaps putting the car into first gear manually too. i.e. try and make it like an old-fashioned car!  The phrase "too clever by half" comes to mind. I'm sure my 1970's Renault 16 would have pulled it OK!

Thanks for your input.

Alec

Have you ever tried accelerating when braking? If you apply the accelerator first and then brake it cuts off power. If you apply the brake first and then the accelerator it pulls against the brake. I guess a safety system to stop you accidentally pressing both pedals.

 

I imagine you press the accelerator to roll off, which takes off the handbrake, the caravan pulls the car backwards which then applies the caravan brakes, which then cuts the power from the car. Try putting your foot on the brake gently (but enough to get the brake lights to come on) and then applying the accelerator and see what happens

1 minute ago, steveb8189 said:

Have you ever tried accelerating when braking? If you apply the accelerator first and then brake it cuts off power. If you apply the brake first and then the accelerator it pulls against the brake. I guess a safety system to stop you accidentally pressing both pedals.

 

I imagine you press the accelerator to roll off, which takes off the handbrake, the caravan pulls the car backwards which then applies the caravan brakes, which then cuts the power from the car. Try putting your foot on the brake gently (but enough to get the brake lights to come on) and then applying the accelerator and see what happens

This is an excellent suggestion. I wish I could go out now and try it, but the caravan is in storage and for various reasons won't be coming out until mid March. I will consider this when I get a chance to experiment. I can understand folk who prefer their vintage cars .. at least the driver was in control, not a computer!  It's clear I need to get better educated about the car's systems, and how to interact with them. (i.e. not disregard these buttons scattered around the gear lever!).

Thanks.

Alec

Not sure if this has been covered above but how are the caravan's brakes operated?  Are they controlled by your handbrake or the car's "normal" brakes?

 

If it's the latter, could the hill start feature be keeping the caravan's brakes on when you're trying to move off?

 

I think you've already confirmed the revs when stationary but just for reference, my 2.0tdi 150 Octavia only revs to 2500 when in neutral too

I would be more concerned about the looks (not superb at all) of a Superb towing a caravan.

My Thoughts are either the traction control and hill hold got confused because of snow on tyres (whole purpose of traction control is to avoid wheelspin) so minimised power too far, and didn't get any, or the caravans brakes were binding which caused same effect as car tried to slow the drive wheels to same (zero) speed.

 

What was the temperature, could the caravans brakes have been frozen, might have been ice stopping brake pads from moving. 

Are the caravans brakes powered, or are they cable operated via an overrun in the towbar.  

I suspect the caravan handbrake activates the same brakes, and although the handbrake lever was released, the actual brake shoes didn't release.  

 

Probably a case of do not apply the brakes for long term storage, but instead chock the wheels

 

 

 

These are good suggestions, thank you SurreyJohn. The circumstances are this: the caravan was taken out of storage one day, taken to my home and given an annual service on my drive the next. I moved the caravan from one place on the drive to another using the motor mover. I put the caravan handbrake on. For two days I couldn't put it back into storage unfortunately, and it snowed. When I could return it I cleared the drive of snow, hooked up the car, took off the caravan handbrake, disengaged the motor mover, and then tried to pull the caravan up the drive - uphill - and encountered the problem. Caravan brakes are tricky. They are applied when the car brakes and the caravan moves towards the car. So pulling away uphill does the opposite. But the caravan incorporates mechanisms to deactivate the brakes when you are reversing (old fashioned caravans you had to get out and do something before reversing), so there is a mechanism that might just have not worked as it should. I'll ring the caravan servicing guy.

Yours is very valid theory.

It hasn't happened before, despite manoeuvering this caravan on my drive dozens of times, but before with a Volvo that also has an electric parking brake, but not hill hold control, and not in snowy conditions.

Many thanks,

Alec

Sounds like just a far from ideal set of circumstances!

 

Rest assumed I can confirm you have made the right choice, 400 Nm/295 ft-lb of torque is enough to pull all but the heaviest of caravans.

4 hours ago, RicardoM said:

I would be more concerned about the looks (not superb at all) of a Superb towing a caravan.

 

Looks fine to me 

    

Hi Alec M,

Sorry to be late to this thread.

Firstly to say that I have towed a 1350 kg Coachman Pastiche 460 for the last 2+ years with a Superb III 190 Estate manual, towing about 5k miles per year, both around France and the UK. I have found it an excellent tow-car with plenty of torque and power when you need it. It is also very stable, even in challenging side winds.

Thus I am very confident you have made the right choice of tow-car for your Trigano.

As regards your issue on your drive, like others, I would strongly suspect that the caravan brakes did not release, even though the handbrake was released.

From your recent post you clearly understand the intricacies of the operation of modern caravan brakes. However, I note that you left the handbrake applied after the service and it subsequently snowed/froze. There is always a possibility of the shoes freezing to the drum in these circumstances – or some damp in the Bowden cables connecting the handbrake to the brake drums freezing and not allowing the brakes to release.

I also had a similar issue at about this time last year (after a cold spell). When I came to connect the van up for a trip the brakes were jammed on in the forward direction, even though the handbrake had been left off. After much juggling backwards and forwards with the motor mover they eventually released themselves. I have never discovered the real cause of this and it has never done it again.

There is, however, an interesting recent post on the Caravan and Motorhome Club Forum about brakes jamming on if the Alko ATC self check has been interrupted. May be of interest to others. However, I don’t think the ATC is fitted to the Triganos.

Happy Caravanning.

Cheers

Paul R T