EV your choice £40k to £90k

[Ootohere]

@shyVRS245 posted that getting on for 2 years ago.

 

What BMW and the rest need to do is get the EV's lighter and on the roads and really forget the performance / acceleration and top speed of the ones that are imported to the UK and that are never going across to Continental Europe.

 

The UK Government could charge a special extra high VED on performance cars / EV's that is over and above those based on RRP so not just Duty / VAT but a charge on the Manufacturers / Importers.

 

Have them not only having to meet the low / Average C02 g/km from WLTP / RDE2 kidology but have them required to have efficient EV's that are not requiring lots of electricity to not even go that far, or needing bigger and heavier batteries to move about cars that are cheap for business users and are just big and expensive and chosen as a status symbol and not what is required for the actual job the 'employee' is doing. 

[Thedempsey]

Car allowance and salary sacrifice users far outweigh business users when it comes to electric cars, so they choose according to taste not efficiency - other than Tesla the ranges are all pretty similar. If we went down the road of efficiency and task orientated then wouldn't we all just be driving round in the same flat white cars with cloth interiors, 15 inch wheels and no sunroofs - bit boring? Surely car enthusiasts consider more than "status symbol" don't you think? The car industry is just part of the big capitalist cog, along with everything else we consume in large numbers. 

[Ootohere]

Hardly.  Local authorities and other publically funded agencies and business's are running lots of EV,s in the UK.  But if manufacturers want to import actual world inefficient EV,s to the UK there needs to be a better system than WLTP to know how much electric is required.   Fair enough if big battery EV,s are using Properly Rapid chargers, but the issue is where charging is limited and a few 50kWh chargers available and a big EV is on them for hours.    I am waiting now to charge and hoping the driver that had been on the charger for 90 minutes already returns.  If not soon I will need to head off to charge.  I have got some charge in on a 7kW charger while waiting.  This is an issue where charging is free. 

Edited 7 April, 2022 by roottoot

[Ootohere]

Easy enough for the UK soon with EV,s for the Government to change UK law.     EV,s have all the software required that at a MOT or Traffic Stop the car can not only have miles travelled checked and use in Built up Areas,. But also when they exceeded NSL,s or restricted speed areas.   The NIP / charges per mile, or exceeded MPH could be imposed on the Registered Keeper / fleet operator.     Not just for EV,s but include ICE vehicles.    As a car is charging and taking in power the miles since the last charge, and the energy consumed is easily enough monitored and really EV efficiency is all over the place and the manufacturers are not making them as efficient as they could yet.    If drivers want to drive less efficient ones then just because they can use cheaply available electric is no reason that the Government / Tax payers should encourage inefficiency.    PS,. I drive a very inefficient EV.  But PSA / Stellantis are turning the same rubbish models out across the brand's.   Models not purpose built as only EV,s. .   MG is the same and then Partnered with VW they can make VW appear to have low Average Emissions across their production of vehicle ICE and EV. 

 

When you just want to get places and stop and get on a 50kW charger because that is all that there is available and you need to get a few miles in it drives people up the wall when a big battery car is parked on the only available for hours charging or maybe even fully charged.

Especially when they have a home charger but just want to top up free.

 

I would rather be paying to charge and have to pay over stay charges and stop the greedy that are as ignorant to hog a charger.

 

I never got on the 50 kW after being here an hour so now have to find an available charger in the next 20 miles.

 

 

Edited 7 April, 2022 by roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

Ooops, I completely missed the 2 year old date stamp.

 

I do agree though getting cars from doing 3-4 miles/kWh to 5-6 miles per kWh would make a huge difference.

Oddly I'd expect somebody like Jaguar, who have been making cars with aluminium for years to be able to improve their range a lot in the next gen cars.  They would of course have to choose to go down the aluminium/other low weight plus good drag factor route and fit not stupid tyres, but would offset that by using a smaller battery to still give better range.

 

100kWh for 400 miles becoming 60-75kWh to go 400 miles would be a nice improvement, save weight and cost/time to fill.

If they could get 60-75kWh to do 450-500 miles, then there is no (real) range anxiety any more and even a 50kWh charger would get you from 10-80% in an hour. A 350 (At lets say 220kW) would have you on your way for "diesel range" in 15-20 minutes too.

 

The charger tech @ 800V 350kW is there, they just need to push it everywhere and get cars doing 400-600 miles from a smaller battery.

When efficiency goes up, those 7kW chargers could give you north of 200-250 miles range miles in 4-5 hours, which again means topping up for a full drive overnight is easy, it's cheaper and the grid has much less strain on it.

 

 

Edited 8 April, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Luckypants]

The best solution for improved m/kWh is lower weight batteries, but I agree lower weight overall and improved aero are big wins too. Tesla seem to get 4-5 m/kWh and have reduced battery size as their efficiency improved. Improved efficiency gives a virtuous circle of smaller and cheaper batteries, less weight again and improved charge times. New battery tech to get energy density up is what is needed. Most car companies and their battery partners are working on this. If 500Wh per Kg became the norm, my ID.4 would be approximately 200Kg lighter 

I don't see the need for 450 mile ranges, but each to their own. I'd be very happy with 250-300 mile range and 4.5+ m/kWh. The smaller battery this would allow takes less time to charge, so charger congestion becomes less of  a thing. I'd seriously consider something like the MG5 next time round as they are getting 250 miles from 62kWh battery and it is an estate. If next gen batteries further improve this, could be a win.

[cheezemonkhai]

2 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

The best solution for improved m/kWh is lower weight batteries, but I agree lower weight overall and improved aero are big wins too. Tesla seem to get 4-5 m/kWh and have reduced battery size as their efficiency improved. Improved efficiency gives a virtuous circle of smaller and cheaper batteries, less weight again and improved charge times. New battery tech to get energy density up is what is needed. Most car companies and their battery partners are working on this. If 500Wh per Kg became the norm, my ID.4 would be approximately 200Kg lighter 

 

 

Yes this is definately a good thing...

 

2 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

I don't see the need for 450 mile ranges, but each to their own. I'd be very happy with 250-300 mile range and 4.5+ m/kWh. The smaller battery this would allow takes less time to charge, so charger congestion becomes less of  a thing. I'd seriously consider something like the MG5 next time round as they are getting 250 miles from 62kWh battery and it is an estate. If next gen batteries further improve this, could be a win.

 

Most people won't need the 450 mile range, but if you want to get business commuters, sales forces and those with long distances to drive, who currently use a diesel to move over, there will need to be the option.

 

Like there is a petrol/diesel choice, the car companies offer an SR offering with 250-300 mile and a say 50kWh battery or a 75kWh which gives 375-450+.

Horses for courses, but the big first step is getting weight down.

 

I mean when we were looking at the EV6, it amazed me how many of these cars use big batteries to get range, then slap wide 20/21" wheels on them and eat up a big chunk of the range. We wanted a particular model version, but you had no option to trade down to 18/19" wheels from 20 to gain approx 10% range improvement. It's fine, we went for the one with smaller wheels and better range, but even so.

 

For this generation, I took what I could, but next time around I want to see something lighter, more aero etc.

Things you see alone on cars, such as cameras in place of wing mirrors, flush door handles, steeper raked aero designs, dual gearing or suspension that lowers at motorway speeds are going to need to start appearing together on the next gen of cars.

 

[wyx087]

One has to remember the C rate for batteries. With most batteries, to get faster charge rate, you need bigger battery to charge the larger number of cells in parallel.

 

So although I totally, whole heartedly agree 300+ miles with 60-70kWh is achievable and should be the target. I think it would compromise on low-end charging speed (shorter time at max charge speed) with today's battery knowledge and tech.

 

I don't think battery weight is the main problem with efficiency. The biggest thing that affects EV range during real world use where range is a factor, aka high speed driving, is the aerodynamic drag. Weight becomes a big issue in situations where the speed is constantly changing, but unlike ICE cars, stop/go traffic does not kill EV's efficiency compared to high speed driving. So I think we need uglier cars that is laser focused on reducing drag at high speed.

[Thedempsey]

You guys are early adopters, as am I, the things you talk about now will make no sense in 10 years as technology will have moved on to be unrecognisable, and who is to say electric cars are the future anyway. If big tech have their way we will be all sat at home deteriorating in our vr suits. 

[cheezemonkhai]

11 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

One has to remember the C rate for batteries. With most batteries, to get faster charge rate, you need bigger battery to charge the larger number of cells in parallel.

 

So although I totally, whole heartedly agree 300+ miles with 60-70kWh is achievable and should be the target. I think it would compromise on low-end charging speed (shorter time at max charge speed) with today's battery knowledge and tech.

 

I don't think battery weight is the main problem with efficiency. The biggest thing that affects EV range during real world use where range is a factor, aka high speed driving, is the aerodynamic drag. Weight becomes a big issue in situations where the speed is constantly changing, but unlike ICE cars, stop/go traffic does not kill EV's efficiency compared to high speed driving. So I think we need uglier cars that is laser focused on reducing drag at high speed.

Absolutely drag is an issue and not just Aero, but also friction from tyres etc.

Sort both and you make a big step on the motorways, which as you say are the EV weak point not cities/traffic as for ICE.

 

 

[lol-lol]

33 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Absolutely drag is an issue and not just Aero, but also friction from tyres etc.

Sort both and you make a big step on the motorways, which as you say are the EV weak point not cities/traffic as for ICE.

 

I want some of these tyres......

 

https://www.whichev.net/2021/06/14/renault-zoe-sets-475-mile-range-record/

 

"With its original OEM tyres, the first Renault Zoe achieved 424.7 miles on a single charge to smash the existing record. However, the identical Renault Zoe, fitted with ENSO’s propriety EV tyres, went further still, achieving 475.4 miles."

 

 

I do not want to drive at 20 mph, except when I driving in a 20 mph zone and there is a speed camera van on that stretch of road as with last month.

Fortunately had the car in B mode and a fraction of a second had the speed down from 22 mph to 20 mph indicated.

 

 

 

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Thedempsey said:

You guys are early adopters, as am I, the things you talk about now will make no sense in 10 years as technology will have moved on to be unrecognisable, and who is to say electric cars are the future anyway. If big tech have their way we will be all sat at home deteriorating in our vr suits. 

*glances at my VR gaming setup nervously*

 

So when can I buy a suit?

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm always the early adopter for tech related stuff, EV happens to be the most expensive item as it is a whole car. I would never be interested in cars, they are just things moving me from A to B.

[Ootohere]

I just met the first Tesla driver I have that was towing a caravan.    I was at a single 50kW charger that took 3 goes to get started and then was dead slow.  So in pulls the Tesla S with a big caravan towed.  He reversed and unhooked the van.  Got his left rear reversed to the charger.  He was trying to start the charger so I got out and asked if he was going on the AC.  No he was going on the CCS.  I told him I was going to be 40 minutes as the next 2 chargers were occupied.  He was ok and was going to get his type 2 cable out.     As it was I stopped charging and let him on as the speed was so bad.     So he was 140 miles  from home and said he gets half the range towing.  No idea if he had already done a top up.    I am on a charger 6 miles up the road and he just passed.  So he had 30 minutes charge max if he did get any charging.  I know the next charger is out of order but he might have enough to go the 20 or so further to the next chargers and his destination..  the whole thing is a lottery on a very very busy weekend of sunshine and showers on the South West Scotland coast.  Not the usual ferry traffic though   lots of campers and a few EV Nissan ones about.   Hailstones now, this morning my cars battery was so cold I could not have the radio on while sitting not charging, sun came out, got much warmer and for a while the car was efficient.  

Edited 8 April, 2022 by roottoot

[KenONeill]

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

said he gets half the range towing.

Which will come as no surprise to people who've towed caravans.

[Ootohere]

@KenONeill

We need to get to know if actually interested more what EV drivers say they get or do get because knowing you will half your range for what ever the temperature is and road type gives people something to make their decisions on about getting an EV if they are going to be towing.

 

I have towed for over 40 years and always with automatics, and petrols, diesels and LPG's, that is all sorts being towed and for gain or reward.So  boats, caravans, car trailers etc and  i do not get or expect double the fuel consumption from what the vehicle gets solo, but then it does very much depend on what the tow barge you have is. 

If any did use double the fuel then it would be punted unless the double the fuel was still acceptable as solo it got pretty good economy.

 

The Tesla driver was charging for free and gets free Tesla Charging so the need to unhitch maybe every 120 miles will not be such a PITA .

Lovely to get on the road and not have to splash the cash other than on the vehicle you use normally.

 

With some EV's if you want to tow, have the car warm in cold weather with passengers, put bikes or boats on the roof and head away then maybe lots of charging stops will be necessary if going far. 

 

..............................

The crazy Enyaq test on a track.

Edited 8 April, 2022 by roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

Battery pack and a gentle regenerative braking system in the caravan to supply power to the tow car?

[Ootohere]

That type of thing has all been trialed and tested.   (There is a video on youtube about future caravans by the guy that is in a thread i started about EV's towing.)

A caravan with solar panels over the roof is not even something that is common,  and neither is trailers being towed that acts as a dynamo / generator.

Not many motorhomers / caravaners  even bother with portable wind turbines for when parked up. 

 

They are with e-Bikers that are touring though. 

 

Time will tell just how many EV's towing start tying up chargers for a long time in tourist areas where the big batteries are being charged so that there is electricity for use in the caravan for a few days while the owners park up and have fun. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 April, 2022 by roottoot

[cheezemonkhai]

Be interesting if you had the battery on the car, a battery on the caravan and one/both of solar/wind on the roof as you say.

That way the car can do the V2L, but then when sun is out/wind is blowing the caravan can recharge itself and if so desired the car.

 

Should cover the daily driving around the campsite if nothing else and would probably be pretty cheap too.