Want to go back to auto gearbox but not DSG

[wiganken1]

After driving Skoda DSG automatic gearbox cars for about 12 years I bought a new manual gear change Fabia in March 2017 so that's over two years now. There is nothing wrong with my manual Fabia but it does not compare with the auto-box experience and the yearning I have to go back to an auto-box is growing stronger. I thought I would get used to the manual gear change but I can't stop comparing the experience and I do not enjoy driving the manual. I believe there are a lot of problems with the DSG box ( source = https://www.honestjohn.co.uk ) and they are expensive to fix so: - Question 1 -  Am I unusual to want to spend around £5.5k + trade-in value of my Fabia to switch to a non-DSG automatic gearbox car? I am considering a Peugeot 308 "Active" trim with the EAT 6 speed torque-converter automatic gearbox. With 130 bhp and 170 lbf. ft of torque it should be more satisfying to drive for overtaking purposes (high speeds do not impress me). Question 2 - Does anyone have any comments re the Peugeot 308 "Active" trim EAT6  car?

 

Thanks in advance.

[chimaera]

Not all versions of the DSG are troublesome. The 6-speed wet clutch type is generally pretty robust.

[Ootohere]

My advice would be get a Peugeot with a EAT8 if you are getting a Peugeot.  Lower C02 g/km models.

Likely a Peugeot salesperson would say the same if they were not in the business of trying to move EAT6 ones.

Edited 5 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[wiganken1]

Chimaera - I believe the 6-speed wet clutch type DSG is only available in the larger car and engine sizes and I do not want a large car/engine.

 

Skoffski - The EAT8 is only available on 308 models from August 2018 onwards and I can't afford one of those. I thought the EAT6 was a good gearbox so I am looking at 2017 models but you say salesmen are "trying to move" EAT6 cars. Are you saying a) there are issues with the EAT6 or b) they are just trying to sell the older spec to get rid of them? I can accept b) but not a).

[Ootohere]

 @wiganken1 have you taken one for a good length of a test drive.  I do not like the EAT6. 

Nothing like a DQ200 DSG to drive.

There have been issues with some DQ200 DSG's. but then Skoda build 2,200 of them a day for 48 different applications.

 

there are not lots of problems with them.

There was the 2009-2012 issue. World Wide Recall / Service Campaign. the 2012 White Spanner issue.

The 2013-2015 Service Campaign, and the ongoing Clutch Slip issue with some DQ200 2015-2017.

Then the issue with 1.5 TSI EVO engines and DQ200 DSG cutting out. 

 

Doh,

maybe you are right, best get a Peugeot......

[Defenderben]

Or go get something with with a ZF autobox, there not DSG and seen as a very reliable box?

[wiganken1]

What is a ZF auto box and which cars have them?

[wiganken1]

Have done a quick check on the ZF autobox and there are two types. The 8HP (for rear or all wheel drive cars) and the 9HP (for transverse installation in front wheel drive cars). Both are fitted in expensive cars and so I can't afford them. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[DJSmiley]

With the VAG cars you're limited to DSG.

Not all DSG are that bad. As far as I know most issues are with the 7-speed DSG (the dry one, DQ200)

 

Even this one is not a major disaster, but its highly recommend to adjust its behaviour so it switches gears better (and prevent excessive wearing)

 

The CVT gearboxes (Toyota) are also known as reliable. (And when used in a hybrid they offer good MPG also). These boxes are also used it some Hondas (Insight) and the Lexus CT200h 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Over a decade of VW / Skoda producing millions of DQ200 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG's and you would think they could get their shoit -shifter sorted.

 

They did an extended warranty in some world regions after a world wide recall excluding europe in 2012.

Well past time they had a 10 year warranty on them all considering there are no Manufacturers Service Recommendations / Guidelines on them.

10 year warranty running from 2010 and on from first registration so that those ending up with cars requiring £3,000 plus to repair DQ200's do not need to be scrapping cars as some are doing.

 

To be turning out now the latest WLTP Approved engines / cars and owners having issues is pathetic.

There have been issues across the models petrol & diesels from Euro 4, 5, & 6 and the latest 1.0 TSI & 1.5 TSI.s

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/466552-fabia-10tsi-100ps-dsg-monte-carlo-mini-review

 

Edited 6 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[Aspman]

If the ZF is out (I've got one in the BM and it's the only auto I've ever liked I was going to suggest it as well) what aout the box that  is in a Mini?

 

The SO tried out an auto mini recently (admittedly a JCW) and thought the auto box was on a par with the ZF with no nasty clonks or harsh changes. Sorry don't know who manufacturers it to see if it's in other models but might be starting point.

 

[edit] http://www.motoringfile.com/2014/09/17/exclusive-minis-new-8-speed-automatic-transmission-revealed/

 

It's an Aisin 8 speed. Can't say I know the brand.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWF8F35

 

In quite a few others in less premium marques.

Edited 7 May, 2019 by Aspman

[Ootohere]

Automatics / Automated Manuals really have moved on. Even Ford have had to get a grip eventually.

Only VW are guilty of not sorting out the DQ200 DSG and having turned out the ASG's until recently (still in VW's, not Skoda / SEAT's) and not making them better than crap others were manufacturing a decade ago.

 

Then there is the issue with the Wet Clutch DSG & Servicing intervals, they need adhered to and it is not clear enough to potential customers or even those that buy them 

that Oil changes are every 40,000 miles, then when owners / drivers get to know that is the 'recommendation or Guidelines / schedule', the Dealership Service Desk staff know little about it, as in does a filter need changed.

(Same with Haldex. all a bit confusing to people who's full time job should mean they have a bit more than just an idea.)

[GeneralPurpose]

Wiganken, fully understand where you are coming from regarding wanting another automatic. Read on please!

 

I'm a lover of the DSG gearboxes that VAG make. They are essentially a robust box, but they have had some quite bad issues over the years and are not completely issue free even now with some noise issues, clutch failures, and mechatronic unit anomolies. Even the manual gearboxes with 5spd and 6spd gearboxes are giving some owners problems and I've been actively involved in trying to find fixes for several members on here. There are TPI's out to dealers but some dealers are having trouble fixing boxes.  I had issues with both of my new Fabias with DSG. Big engine issues and mInor DSG issues with the first new Mk3 and big issues with the second Mk3 with DSG. I rejected the first car only to find even bigger issues with the second car, so got shot.

 

After a lot of research and talking to my tech buddies still in the trade I decided I had to rule out any VAG cars with auto box as all the brands are suffering the same intrinsic problems. In other words, I was in the same boat you are now. I eventually bought a Citroen C3 Flair with the petrol 1.2, 3cylinder 110ps 205nm of torque @ 1500rpm, engine, and the EAT6 auto box.. The car is slightly bigger than the Fabia Mk3. Up to 4" wider, slightly longer, and higher too. But the build quality now is way ahead of anything Citroen have made before whether you look underneath, or at the bodywork. It's beautifully finished off. The engine is a several time award winning unit. It's very smooth (you wouldn't know it's a 3 cyl unit) and it's very economical. I can get over 70mpg quite easily on cruise control with 74mpg being the best so far. It's very fast too and the massive amount of torque available at any speed is just amazing. It trounces 1.2TSI  Fabias in every way. I wanted a softer ride too, so the Citroen made sense for us. I've covered a huge mileage in the 8 months I've had her and am very pleased with it. It's been a breath of fresh air with no issues or problem of any kind. Again so different to my last two new Skoda cars which both spent weeks and weeks in the garage with big issues.

 

Now the EAT6 gearbox. This is great. It's made by the Japanese firm AISIN, argueably the best torque converter automatic gearbox manufacturers in the world. It's almost as smooth as a DSG, but not quite as smooth going from 1st to 2nd gear when cold, or even when hot actually unless you move off quickly, then it's very smooth. Slower move offs produce just a slight jolt when changing up from 1st to second gear, not enough to annoy but you know it's there. All the other gear changes are very smooth and on par with the DSG. It's also on par with the VAG Tiptronic torque converter box fitted to the Fabia's between 2007 and 2010 with the 1600cc petrol engines. I had one of those to and It was very good. The EAT6 is especially good in traffic. There are no clutches to wear out so you can just leave it in 'D' and forget about it. When you are in a hurry you can just plant you foot on the loud pedal and it takes off like a scalded cat, and remarkably, the harder you drive it the smoother it is. Not sensitive like some of the DSG boxes can be when moving off. The EAT6 box has a good reputation for reliability and toughness. It's used widely in the Peugeot and Citreon ranges and is certified up to 160hp. It's a tough box.

 

Don't know if any of that helps you but go for a long drive in one and see what you think. And by the way, many manufacturers are going back to torque converter boxes to avoid the DSG issues. Any that haven't are in the process of planning the change over. I know as I've been involved recently in some design work for a major manufacturer concerning this very thing. It's up to you of course but CVT boxes all give early issues and suffer shorter lives than DSG or Torque converter boxes. Look at Honda, and Toyota, Nissan CVT. Not good with early failures very often. That's why you'll see some changes soon.

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

New Toyota Camry Hybrid are CVT and will not be changing any time soon.

Subaru Lineartronic are CVT and very good and robust.

 

Plenty more Hybrids will have a CVT, and the EV's no gearbox.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeneralPurpose]

Not quite Skoffski. As you'll see many of the CVT's don't go the distance. They all fall short on reliablilty over big mileages, and they are all very very expensive to fix. Look at the Honda's with CVT, Toyota's and Nissan too. All have had big issues and are still questionable in terms of reliability long term. And it's too early to say how these new boxes will check out on those new cars you post about. I attended an industry seminar a couple of months ago showing how CVT is going bad on several models. CVT is good on some cars but very bad on others. Watch what happens in the next year or so. You'll see quite a few issues I guarantee. This is because of the engineering challenges faced by manufacturers. I've been involved in trying to overcome some of these very issues. It's difficult and expensive. Manufacturers are withdrawing slowly from CVT at the moment as you will see. That's in contrast to what some are saying. They have to recoup development and manufacturing costs. But you will see some changes soon except for the EV vehicles where CVT suits that type of power delivery. The cost will be shorter life span for the transmission.

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

Questionable on reliability is not something i have seen, but you will no doubt tell me about the failure rate.

Servicing and maintenance is required with all gearboxes to some degree. 

Something VW group have never introduced with DQ200's, & Wet clutch DSG 40,000 mile oil changes and a bit much, but necessary.

Models that have had CVT's in past generations are being released with the new generation CVT's.

 

Sorry to disagree again but since 1977 i have owned and driven quite a few CVT's, driven newer ones recently,

& from ones i had a few years i especially liked my Volvo 343, Subaru Justy, Punto Speedgear, Micra, Toyota iQ.

All were used quite hard, were particularly good in winter.

 

CVT's are here to stay.

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[GeneralPurpose]

Of course they are hear to stay. But that doesn't mean everyone will be using them. The majority of folks who keep them long term with big mileages often regret keeping them due to the expense of fixing them. They have far more issues than DSG. I stripped a Toyota Prius unit 3 months ago. It had just 50k on the it. Totally worn out! Then there is the Honda Jazz CVT which is worn out anywhere between 60-80k miles. That's why most manufacturers are planning to change to torque converter. I know, I'm involved in the designing of them for quite a few manufacturers. I spec the gearboxes.

[Ootohere]

I doubt anything has failed more than DQ200's from VW Group.

 

?

How common is the failure of the Millions of Toyota Prius gearboxes globally.

At least Toyota and some other provide warranties worth the paper they are written on and covering a period that many might keep a car they buy for and not just the length of a lease.

 

Aisin Transmissions.

Including e-CVT's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aisin_transmissions

 

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[wiganken1]

Estate Man - Thanks for the info. I think the EAT6 gearbox sounds good and I note that you like the Citroen C3 Flair with that box. I have looked at the C3 and it looks OK except for that door mat/rug stuck to the sides. Is this fitted to all C3s or can it be had without the doormat?

I have been looking at the Peugeot 308 (which is a bigger car) in the 'Allure' trim level also fitted with the EAT6 gearbox. This, IMO, looks a nicer car and the second hand prices are the same as for the C3. Weird! A bigger, nicer looking car for the same money? Are there problems with the Peugeot 308 'Allure' with EAT6 box causing this?

[GeneralPurpose]

Not that I know of Ken. The Peugeots are good cars but they devalue a bit quicker than Citroen on some models. The build quality is reasonable but not quite as good as some of the newer Citroens. I'm talking about the bits you don't necessarily see. My Citroen is heavily constructed, except for the doors which use high strength lightweight steel to save weight. They are 30% stronger than the older heavier steel doors used on the previous C3. The 1.2 3cyl motor is widespread throughout the range of Citroen/Peugeots. It's available in up to 160hp format. It's a gem as is the gearbox. I don't know of any issues with the engines or gearboxes. The C3 is available without the side rubbing strip if you don't like it. You must specify this when you order new. But, it does a fabulous job of protecting the car, as does the plastic trim around the wheel arches. The bumpers too protect the car very well against careless individuals. My wife has been very ill in Queens hospital London. They have their own multistory car park. It's big but very tight for parking. I had no issue with parking my car in their every day in February while I was seeing my wife. It's virtually impossible to clonk the paintwork with doors from other cars. It's in other words quite armoured against the careless folks we all despise! My car has remained prestine.

 

Here's a link to a Youtube vid which shows my model, it's an automatic. Note how armoured it is. That's another reason I chose it.

 

1.2 3 cylinder, 110ps, 205nm of torque @ 1500rpm, EAT6 autobox

[GeneralPurpose]

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

I doubt anything has failed more than DQ200's from VW Group.

 

?

How common is the failure of the Millions of Toyota Prius gearboxes globally.

At least Toyota and some other provide warranties worth the paper they are written on and covering a period that many might keep a car they buy for and not just the length of a lease.

 

Aisin Transmissions.

Including e-CVT's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aisin_transmissions

 

 

Yes, Aisin are moving away from CVT too. They are helping Nissan amongst others to get into good solid computer controlled auto boxes using torque converters. Failurer of CVT boxes is considerable and far exceeds the problems with DSG/DCT.

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

Very unlikely as Ford had to finally admit the Powershift issues and VW Group never admit anything.

 

2019 Nissan Micra CVT.

 

 

 

Edited 10 May, 2019 by Skoffski

[silver1011]

On 05/05/2019 at 15:43, wiganken1 said:

After driving Skoda DSG automatic gearbox cars for about 12 years I bought a new manual gear change Fabia in March 2017 so that's over two years now. There is nothing wrong with my manual Fabia but it does not compare with the auto-box experience and the yearning I have to go back to an auto-box is growing stronger. I thought I would get used to the manual gear change but I can't stop comparing the experience and I do not enjoy driving the manual. I believe there are a lot of problems with the DSG box ( source = https://www.honestjohn.co.uk ) and they are expensive to fix so: - Question 1 -  Am I unusual to want to spend around £5.5k + trade-in value of my Fabia to switch to a non-DSG automatic gearbox car? I am considering a Peugeot 308 "Active" trim with the EAT 6 speed torque-converter automatic gearbox. With 130 bhp and 170 lbf. ft of torque it should be more satisfying to drive for overtaking purposes (high speeds do not impress me). Question 2 - Does anyone have any comments re the Peugeot 308 "Active" trim EAT6  car?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Reliability isn't an exact science, and far more of it is related to the way the car is driven / treated / maintained, than specific design failings.

 

Whilst the DSG is a great gearbox, I'd never want to own one out of warranty.

 

After 5 Skoda's I too fancied an automatic, but didn't want a DSG, mainly due to me covering high mileage and keeping my cars well beyond the manufacturer's warranty.

 

I ended up with a 2016 W212 Mercedes-Benz E-Class with their own in-house developed 7G-Tronic torque converter gearbox. I really like it, and hope it proves to be reliable.

 

I recently drove a 2018 1.4 TSI DSG VW Golf and really warmed to it, especially the DSG box.

 

The automatic Hyundai i10 and Kia Picanto get really good reviews, specifically around their gearboxes.

 

What is your budget? What size car are you after. The Peugeot 308 is in a different class to the Fabia.

 

 

Edited 10 May, 2019 by silver1011

[GeneralPurpose]

11 hours ago, Skoffski said:

Very unlikely as Ford had to finally admit the Powershift issues and VW Group never admit anything.

 

2019 Nissan Micra CVT.

 

 

 

 

CVT works best in small cars with low power. Given the huge power-output of the mid size and bigger EV's, CVT will need to be very strong indeed. Long term it will be interesting to see how these fair. But, virtually all CVT's to date don't go big distances without issues. The biggest issue is the belts which get hot and simply wear out. They do break too. This will often take out the transmission bearings at the same time. If the car isn't run in correctly the belts break very early because they get too hot and stretch. Honda Jazz's have been know to break belts at 50k miles. The Toyota Prius has had considerable problems with it's CVT too with just about all the issues any CVT can have. It remains to be seen if the revised version of their transmission will last. I've had one apart in the workshop and it looked fine but the proof is in the eating. The new Jazz is better but I doubt you will get many reaching 80,000+ miles before something goes bang. On past experience, they certainly don't match the torque converter boxes for reliability and longevity. Torque converter boxes are still unrivalled for best long term reliability, and of course they are now very very efficient. Cost of repairs to CVT's can exceed the value of the vehicle even when the car isn't very old, depending on brand of car. Torque converter boxes are easy to fix and cheaper by comparison. Anyhoo, that is the way it is according to an industry seminar I was at just two months ago. Hoping CVT will become better but many manufacturers are telling me they are moving away from CVT for lots of reasons.

[GeneralPurpose]

10 hours ago, silver1011 said:

 

Reliability isn't an exact science, and far more of it is related to the way the car is driven / treated / maintained, than specific design failings.

 

Whilst the DSG is a great gearbox, I'd never want to own one out of warranty.

 

After 5 Skoda's I too fancied an automatic, but didn't want a DSG, mainly due to me covering high mileage and keeping my cars well beyond the manufacturer's warranty.

 

I ended up with a 2016 W212 Mercedes-Benz E-Class with their own in-house developed 7G-Tronic torque converter gearbox. I really like it, and hope it proves to be reliable.

 

I recently drove a 2018 1.4 TSI DSG VW Golf and really warmed to it, especially the DSG box.

 

The automatic Hyundai i10 and Kia Picanto get really good reviews, specifically around their gearboxes.

 

What is your budget? What size car are you after. The Peugeot 308 is in a different class to the Fabia.

 

 

 

Glad you like your Mercedes. Keep us all informed if you will, regarding any issues with the transmission. I don't suppose you will get any but it's nice to know how it goes.