50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Personally, I think the current EV route we are heading down is not right. Namely Jag I-Pace, Audi E-Tron are too inefficient, they require large battery to cover good enough distance.

 

Jaguars position is on record.

 

EV tech is still expensive and they have to charge premium prices.

While that is the case the first vehicles will be high performance expensive models. The I-Pace is a bespoke platform with 400hp and a £80k vehicle in top spec trim with a few options so obviously has some weight and has headline performance.

Going forward JLR do have a modular platform that will offer different size vehicles, different performance levels and different price points.

But the first model to use that will be the XJ luxury saloon so again prices will be £60k-£100k and they command high power and performance.

As volume increases and build costs reduce this platform will also underpin smaller and cheaper SUV and saloon/estate models that will appeal to the company and private sectors.

 

Lee

wyx087 I get your point about ICE not driving the wheels, but would you find a PHEV acceptable?

 

50 minutes ago, OldBoyScout said:

wyx087 I get your point about ICE not driving the wheels, but would you find a PHEV acceptable?

Well, the problem with parallel hybrid PHEV is that you don't enjoy simplicity of full EV powertrain (there's still gearbox, clutch, flywheel, etc), your electric motor is usually under powered (most PHEV cannot sustain motorway speed on electric power) and the added weight + complexity of the hybrid system works against you (higher fuel consumption than ICE-only version).

 

It only really works if you can fully utilise its 20-30 miles battery range and drive as little as possible using fossil fuel. As such, you'll be plugging it in more often than full EV. They are almost as expensive to buy as full EV and more expensive to service. Everytime you demand full power, the car waggles its finger at you and say "ah ah ah, ICE power is what you want" (think Jurassic park).

Unfortunately many people bought these for tax reasons.

 

So I don't rate PHEV. It's an evolutionary change for car manufacturers to keep people in their established ICE powertrain. Just like 48v mild-hybrid is their cop-out response to ever tightening emission standards. Once you drive an EV, you'll find: The instant torque feel in EV's is addictive and makes you never want to drive an ICE with turbo lag and automatic gearbox. The regenerative braking in EV's feel natural and intuitive, in comparison, driving ICE car feels like controlling a giant Indiana Jones boulder.

 

5 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Jaguars position is on record.

 

EV tech is still expensive and they have to charge premium prices.

While that is the case the first vehicles will be high performance expensive models. The I-Pace is a bespoke platform with 400hp and a £80k vehicle in top spec trim with a few options so obviously has some weight and has headline performance.

Going forward JLR do have a modular platform that will offer different size vehicles, different performance levels and different price points.

But the first model to use that will be the XJ luxury saloon so again prices will be £60k-£100k and they command high power and performance.

As volume increases and build costs reduce this platform will also underpin smaller and cheaper SUV and saloon/estate models that will appeal to the company and private sectors.

 

Lee

Sounds incredibly like Tesla's initial plan: expensive cars first, the money from that fund mass market cars.

 

Hopefully their modular platform EV will be much more efficient than the I-Pace. It's less about the platform, more about the motor-inverter though. It took Tesla 6 years to get to the super efficient Model 3, I-Pace efficiency is on-par to early Model S. In another words, more than 5 years behind Tesla in electric powertrain. Audi is even further behind with their overweight E-Tron, hopefully MEB will be lighter.

 

Tesla recently upgrade their S and X with same motor-inverter as Model 3, giving 10% added range without upping battery size: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-s-x-range-upgrade-270-325-miles-supercharger-200kw

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Sounds incredibly like Tesla's initial plan: expensive cars first, the money from that fund mass market cars.

 

Hopefully their modular platform EV will be much more efficient than the I-Pace. It's less about the platform, more about the motor-inverter though. It took Tesla 6 years to get to the super efficient Model 3, I-Pace efficiency is on-par to early Model S. In another words, more than 5 years behind Tesla in electric powertrain. Audi is even further behind with their overweight E-Tron, hopefully MEB will be lighter.

 

Tesla recently upgrade their S and X with same motor-inverter as Model 3, giving 10% added range without upping battery size: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18513899/tesla-model-s-x-range-upgrade-270-325-miles-supercharger-200kw

 

The I-Pace was going to be a Range Rover product but as they couldn't give it the required off road performance on that platform to be branded as a Range Rover it was given to Jaguar.  It won world car of the year last year.

 

JLR and BMW will co-develop inverter and motor tech.

 

Most expert reviews and EV write ups seem to envisage that mainstream manufacturers will overtake or match Tesla for drivetrain tech within one model cycle and as most mainstream manufacturers can offer far better and tighter build quality as well as easier repairs then Tesla as a car manufacturer will struggle long term. VAG alone  are talking a million MEB models a year in just a few years.

Where Tesla have a major advantage is their battery supply chain and charger network.

 

Who knows where it will end up.

Edited 9 July, 20196 yr by logiclee

6 hours ago, OldBoyScout said:

wyx087 I get your point about ICE not driving the wheels, but would you find a PHEV acceptable?

 

A study also recently showed that hybrids were more expensive overall than both ICE and EV so as @wyx087 post above, plus they cost you more. Can’t find the link to the study, sorry, was only reading it end of last week. 

Looks like the new Superb hybrid coming soon is not such a good idea as I thought. I was thinking I might be interested if or when the Octavia Scout became available as a hybrid, but now need to rethink this.

 

For lots of city driving it will be decent I’m that you’ll probably rarely fill it up and mostly travel on the battery. But you pay a hefty premium fir it in the purchase price. Suggestions the Superb will cost around £40k in hybrid form. 

10 hours ago, maffyou said:

A study also recently showed that hybrids were more expensive overall than both ICE and EV so as @wyx087 post above, plus they cost you more. Can’t find the link to the study, sorry, was only reading it end of last week. 

I think below post was in response to the above post:  @shyVRS245

1 hour ago, shyVRS245 said:

Can't remember on which thread you were asking about the cost of EV's in relation to petrol, diesel and hybrids but a study by The International Council for Clean Transportation back in Feb 2019 carried out a survey with the VW Golf's different variants including the GTE electric/petrol hybrid. In summary it found that over 4 years of ownership despite the initial higher cost to purchase EV's they would work out 5% cheaper to run than a diesel Golf. Third was the petrol only variant and the most expensive of the 4 options was the GTE. Hope this helps with the point you were trying to make on a particular thread. Perhaps a MOD may move this to a more appropriate section.

 

 

W.R.T. Tesla:

When other manufacturer start to actually deliver EV's in volume, Tesla's mission statement has finally been achieved. They may end up being tier 1 supplier for battery and autonomous features + charge operators, stop selling cars.

But for the foreseeable future, they will still have their supercharger network advantage. I would not want to buy any EV for long distance drive without access to that charging network. Current EV en-route charging is fragmented, unreliable and not numerous enough. Ionity is a network funded by many big manufacturers, but so far, they have only 1 operational site in UK, ~3 others being built. The one being built in MK Coachway is only 4 stalls, whereas all Tesla supercharger locations are now at least 6 stalls.

 

So I think it's all about personal priority. We already have a local-use EV, I only care about long distance capability for my next car, so access to reliable charging network and super efficient powertrain is all that matters to me. In 2-4 years time, I'll want to get rid of my diesel Skoda (DPF will be almost full) for a second hand EV that can do that, unfortunately Model 3 is the only one fits my needs and will be available second hand by then.