I don't normally buy newspapers, but Saturday's Telegraph came my way.  Summarising a question & answer in the motoring section (Honest John Expert Advice) someone asked the following :-

 

"My Audi A1 has the notorius DSG dry-sump gearbox.  In view of the many problems owners are experiencing, are there any advanced warning signs we should know about."

 

"ANSWER.  Don't ever sit in Drive with the engine running or you simply grind the clutch plates together.  Also many independants and better VW group dealers advocate changing the mineral oil in the gearbox every 4 years.  This 'sealed for lie'  DQ200 box actually isn't.  There's a drain plug and a breather, the cap of which can be removed to reveal an opening through which fresh transmission  fluid can be added with a syringe."

 

 

Totally new to me and any comments?.  I usually leave my Karoq 1.0 Tech DSG in gear at say traffic lights with the auto stop/start switched off.  Maybe I should always keep the auto start/stop operating.  OR does the autohold put it in Neutral - I'll look at the display next time.  I don't actually like the auto hold & prefer just keeping my foot on the brake and letting the car momentarily creep forward as the lights change, before touching the sensitive throttle pedal.  Can't comment on the oil change.

I previously had a Yeti 1.2 SE DSG for 4.5years with no auto stop/start and so the car car was frequently in gear when stopped and never any trouble with the gearbox or anything else much.  I thought that although the DSG box gave trouble early on, it's woes were sorted out quite a few years ago.

 

Ford had trouble with their newer DSG box more recently - my sister and partner like Focuses and their 1.6 of a few years ago had juddering problems that were only fairly recently sorted.  Their recent 1.0 has been OK though, but not as economical as my Karoq or Yeti, nor in fact quite as good as their older 1.6.  This reinforces something said here a while ago that the VAG 3cyl is a sunstantially different animal to the sporty Ford 1 litre.

 

Also, is it possible that creeping forward in traffic, clutch plates slipping away, causes excessive wear I wonder - my car usually soon changes up to 2nd even at very low creeping speeds, so whether there is much slipping, I can't say.

 

There was a brief article in Autocar earlier this year about the VAG DSG box, saying that it has oversized clutch plates with a view to giving a gearbox life of 300,000KM.

 

I assume both my Skodas were /are the DQ200 box.  I love my DSG, in spite of the slightly iffy start from standstill issue - not helped by the sensitive throttle.

 

I used to have respect for the guy, he did seem clued up and indeed, honest. However he gets some stuff well wrong..........I crossed swords, so to speak, about 15 years ago when he suggested that VW T5 automatics (before DSG) we’re not reliable and should be avoided.......turned out he’d picked up a single complaint from Australia. 
I too read the Telegraph and I seem to recall the same daft comment about DSG and standing in gear previously being published. 
As far as I’m concerned, he’s talking rubbish, the DSG box disconnects the drive when the vehicle is stationary with the foot brake applied......and, I suspect if/when the electric brake is activated. (?)
Daft thing is, when DSG boxes first appeared he (HJ) couldn’t have been more complimentary about ‘em, they were the future for automatics. 

I often shift to N on approach to a red light, but only to be able to gradually ease the braking pressure down to the smooth final zero while stopping. That's to avoid the little end jolt.

 

Edited 16 October, 20196 yr by agedbriar

Remember the fuss around DPF      and Cat Converters 

Honest John (HJ) is totally biased against DSG 'boxes, & advises all to avoid them. I have found his published advice / information and his answers on various topics often completely wrong, yet he portrays himself as the "Messiah" of all things motoring. He looks like (from his photo) a typical "Arthur Daley" character, and seems to now act like one !

PS I'm on my third DSG equipped car (2x Octy's & a Karoq) and have never had a moments problem with any of them.

Edited 19 October, 20196 yr by JKW
Forgot the P.S. !

Honest John is mahoosively over-rated IMO. Can't really comment on his long term reliability reviews. But his new car reviews are very much running with the crowd and often completely wrong/mis-informed and often lacking in crucial details.

As far as new cars go, get out there and do some long term tests yourselves if you can, it's the only way...

As far as long term reliability, you can't beat forums like this and reliable word of mouth. 

I take on board what people say about the Telegraph 'Expert Advice' and thanks for the comments. 

 

With stop/start switched off, I've looked at how my DSG in the 1.0 Karoq behaves at standstill, and whether I just keep my foot on the foot brake, or switch on the autohold brake, the car stays in gear (D1) at standstill.  Of course this doesn't mean the clutch plates are 'slipping' against each other.

 

However on manual cars (last one I owned was a 1.6 Peugeot 405 sold 19years ago) I understood that if you keep the car in gear say at traffic lights and clutch pedal fully depressed, the clutch plates might not be slipping, but the thrust bearing connected intimately to the clutch pedal, will wear instead - not that I ever took heed of this advice and often kept my foot pressing on the clutch pedal in such circumstances.  Actually I kept the 405 for 13 years from new with original clutch and thrust bearing, although the clutch was getting decidedly heavy by the end - an indication of wear I was told. 

 

(Actually had very little trouble of any sort from the 405 throughout it's life - can't say the same for it's S/H replacement BMW 523i auto E39, but it had done quite a few miles when bought).

 

Back to the subject, I wonder if the DSG box has a similar sort of thrust bearing, or is there somehow a full disconnection between engine and gearbox?  Maybe comparing idle speed and sound with car in Drive, Neutral or Park would give me some kind of a clue.

 

In addition whilst writing and maybe a bit off topic - my previous 1.2 Yeti DSG had a hill hold brake (but no auto hold) that would stop the car running backwards downhill for a couple of seconds after taking foot off brake, giving time to transfer foot to throttle and get the car revs up a little.  This was to some extent to mimick the fluid flywheel effect that makes starting on uphills so easy with conventional automatics.  I vaguely recall reading on old message here, that the DSG Karoq retains this hill hold feature in addition to the autohold.  Can anyone confirm this - I could try out a steep hill start I suppose, but in the 3months of ownership I somehow seem to have avoided having to do this.

 

 

I have the automatic 'Parking Brake' device switched off on our DSG Karoq but the 'Hill Hold' device still works as expected.........that combination suits me fine.....I apply the parking brake as and when I feel it's needed.

@croquemonsieur

You are getting much wrong or just the timelines. Buy the time Yeti's were discontinued all was not resolved. 

 (Twin Dry Clutch DSG, not dry sump,

there are 2 oils in the box, ECU & Box has oil.)

Honest John often does not know his ar5e from his elbow apparently.

Ford Powershift boxes troubles go back for years, and to more recent times.

 

DQ200 DSG issues go back for years to 2009 if not before, then to 2012, then 2012-2015, then 2014/15-2018.

There are issues now in 2019 with DQ200's in Skoda Karoq that have lost drive. Maybe only very few, but then VW are not the ones that own up to how many.

It was not sorted out in 2012 or 2015,

but not getting much coverage or the number / percentages of failures.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/439395-the-story-of-the-famous-dq200-clutch-slip/page/13

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/473186-another-dsg-recall

 

Luckily 1.0TSI 110-115ps engines and DQ200's do not seem to be having issues, but then only time will tell.

Autohold is a wonderful think IMO. 

Only time will tell how Scala & Kamiq with no e-Brake and a DQ200 will fair.

 

PS

Ford sport 3 cylinder 1 liters were destroying themselves which is why people have been compensated for when Ford were in denial and cars have been bought back.

 

Edited 22 October, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

Ohhh!!!  Thanks for that slightly worrying info Rootootemoot, I had intended to keep the car for around 8years as I do like it, but we'll have to see, maybe I'll think about getting that transmission oil replaced after 4 years.  I haven't started to plough through the 13 pages in the 1st link yet, but will do so.  I hadn't come across mention of DSG problems in this Karoq forum up to now, but I'm only recently here & so not seen all the messages.

 

It looks like the Telegraph man might have been correct after all about DSG reliability.  As of today I've started using the stop / start a bit more where I'm likely to enounter traffic lights, on the assumption that it's cheaper to replace worn starter motor engagement gears than DSG clutches.  I'm still not fond of autohold & the retained hillhold feature means maybe I'll never use it, but only 3 months in, so it's early days yet.

 

Reassuring to read that the 1.0 3cyl engines as in my Karoq, and the previous 1.2 4cyl with DSG seem OK, at least those rated up to 115hp.  Which engines do cause problems then - presumably more torquey and powerful ones?  Does the 1.5TSI use the DQ200, or an uprated DSG gearbox?

 

I didn't quite understand what the e-brake is regarding Scala / Kamiq cars though - is it autohold or lack of it?

 

Links re the Ford gearbox and 3cyl would be interesting to read if you have any - the new 1.5 3cyl with cylinder shutdown looks interesting technically though - I think I posted a link on this a few weeks ago.

Honest John is not correct, the clutches on the DSG do not drag if the foot brake is applied*.

 

Proof, level ground (no hill-hold interference) let the vehicle 'creep' forward then apply the foot brake, revs will drop slightly......release the foot brake and it'll take a moment or so before the gearbox re-engages.

 

Do similar with a manual parking brake and there'll be a fight between the box and the brake with the box releasing the drive only when the temperature of the clutch plates rises.....this is where DSG problems begin, driver abuse.

 

*I'm almost 100% convinced the application of the electric parking brake does the same thing, i.e. disconnects the clutches but I keep forgetting to test it.

 

I'm in my 10th year with a DSG 7 speed Golf I bought new, treated with some respect the box is a clever and wonderful bit of kit. 

 

There are too many drivers out there that abuse 'em, that's why I'd be very cautious about buying a second hand DSG vehicle.

Near impossible to abuse or drive wrongly with a DQ200 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG. 

They are bulletproof,  that is apart from the bad ones.

 

Skoda build 2,200 of them a day.

Maybe they only balls up 22 a day, maybe only 2 of them.   

What a shame that Skoda, VW, Audi, SEAT can not accept that it is the fault of Skoda and not blame 'driver errror' 

or such.

 

 

Edited 23 October, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

Pity Autocar / What Car / Piston heads / Haymarket Media Group friend to VW never appologised and corrected this & did the same size of article  when a Service Campaign had to be started in Europe / UK.

But that is how it is, Honest John or Bob Flavin have to tell it like it is sometimes, as VW Advertising is big money....

I thought I'd ollow up this matter a bit more out of interest.  Googling links suggests that the DG200 upto 2016 was the most problematic.  The ECU may be one of the problems - there are firms that can rebuild them for you at rather lower cost than a new unit from VAG.  E.g.

 

https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/volkswagen/volkswagen-golf-audi-a3-dsg-7-gearbox-problem/

 

Here they say the synthetic oil used caused a problem until they changed to mineral oil + other issues.  Berisford, the advice to put it into neutral at traffic lights etc reappears , for what it's worth, but I'm inclined to believe you.  They do go on to praise the DSG however.

 

https://www.quora.com/Have-the-issues-with-the-Volkswagen-DQ200-Automatic-7-Speed-DSG-transmission-been-fixed-now

 

and re wet clutches

 

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/car-clinic-have-the-problems-with-vw-dsgaudi-automatic-gearboxes-been-fixed/

 

maybe they do need maintenance and a good clean out after a few years as this link

 

 

Suggesting what was more problematic means nowt if you have one from 2017, 2018 or 2019 that has faults or issues / fails to provide drive.

*Leaves you sticking on a junction with traffic coming at you.*

 

There are DQ200 DSG from last year and this year with Software Issues, that is those on a 1.5TSI engine.

 

You can not know how things will be in 3 years and out of warranty until 3 years have past, and since VW Group never bothered actually getting things right that is am issue.

Nobody knows what a 2017 built DQ200 will be like in 4 years as it was built ony 2 years ago.

Most will be fine, but better have a good warranty.

Sad that VW Group will not give a 5 year warranty on a DQ200 DSG that has no Service Schedules / Guidelines / Need to do anything to them.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/439395-the-story-of-the-famous-dq200-clutch-slip/page/13

 

Edited 23 October, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/315115-service-campaign-dq200-dsg-oil-changeecu-update-fabia-in-uk/page/9/#comments

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/471908-dsg-box-oil

 

SKODA build 2,200 DQ200 DSG a day, have them for 28 applications, 

have built millions.

If OIl changes are a good idea, ideal, then VW / Skoda have had 10 years to decide to make them a Service item.

They are not far off discontinuing building them.  

Problem is they have nothing else ready other than for the Hybrids / EV's.

 

Edited 23 October, 20196 yr by Roottootemoot

I found this thread whilst considering whether to buy Skoda's extended warranty as I was particularly interested in the long term reliability of the DSG box.

 

There is mention of whether to service/change oil in the DSG at 4 years.  My Skoda service plan has "DSG Gearbox Service" at end of year 4.

 

Previous automatics have been a K reg Volvo 240 Estate 2.0 auto - the auto box was problem free for at least 17 years and still going ok when we sold it.  A Y reg Ford Mondeo Estate 2.0 auto estate that continued to go well when my parents sold it at 12 years old.

 

The car is a 68 reg Karoq SE l 1.5 DSG.  It had it's 3 year service last week and also now has an MOT.  The car will be 3 years old around 27th Nov.   Mileage is 25k.  I drive it with the stop/start off.  Note - stop/start not used as I find it a nuisance in car parks, most of the stops at traffic lights, etc. are on slopes - stop with the foot brake.  We rarely encounter M25 stop/start traffic as the roads around here are freeing moving and being retired we can avoid rush hour queues.

 

So I am thinking the DSG will be reliable long term - the plan is to keep the car for around 10 years or so and then buy a zero emissions car, i.e. electric - or perhaps sooner if suitable cost effective cars appear - the 50% uplift for electric is a bit much and there are other more effective greener 'investments' for less money.

 

The Skoda extended warranty being offered is around £150-£200 depending on the excess - so I think I will take this up for the 4th year.

 

Any comments welcome on the DSG and warranty.

I doubt that you will get a DSG Oil change done using the Service Plan if you have a DQ200 DSG which has no Oil Change as part of the Manufacturers Recommendations / Guidelines and there is no schedule for servicing them. 

 

You could ask in writing. 

As it is if your vehicle is Serviced to the manufacturers recommendations the warranty should cover what it says in the T&C's of the warranty.

 

Doing an Oil Change on a DQ200 DSG is not 'To the manufacturers recommendations'. 

 

People do change oil in DQ200's though because they want to.   You can pay to have it done if the Service Plan does not cover it.

??

Did the service Pan cover the Brake Fluid Change at 3 years, the AC Service @ 2 & then at 4 years?

Hopefully it will cover the Spark Plug change at 4 years / 40,000 miles.

 

PS

Both the Volvo & Ford had schedules for changing oil in the Auto and if not done and all was well then that was fine.

Not really recommended to just leave them though. 

The DQ200 is a 2 pedal car and changes gear automatically but they are Automated Manuals, like Ford Durashifts were.

I had one of those disasters in a Transit. I had a Volvo S60 that before i bought it had a new engine before 66,000 miles and then a replacement Autobox.

Edited 20 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

I bought the factory 5 year warranty with my Karoq purely as insurance against any expensive faults in the DSG/Haldex system. But I drove a Golf Plus TDI DSG for 3 years, and then a Golf SV TSI DSG for 6+ years, both without any problems whatsoever. 

 

The extra warranty gives you peace of mind, and the value of it depends on how you value that:) 

 

Chris 

The dry clutch gearbox does not degrade the oil like the wet clutch ones in the more powerful cars.

gearbox oil should last a very long time, I seem to recall 80k as a recommended oil change time years ago in Fords?

If I owned a dry clutch dsg car I would consider replacing the oil at around that mileage, at which time it will probably be out of warranty. I am understand the dry clutches last up to about 150k, so that would be the next opportunity to change the oil.

Wet clutches like mine run in the same gearbox oil and do contaminate it so it needs changing at 40k. However the wet clutches can last a huge mileage as a result as they do not really suffer wear like the dry clutch plates which take up drive using friction. Wet clutches use shear in the oil to take up the drive and don’t touch until virtually at the same speed.