1 hour ago, Urrell said:

 

The Yeti applies brakes individually on the car via sensors like yaw etc to keep safe if they detect sliding or jackknifing etc.
That's why the car needs to be programmed to know a trailer is being towed so it can react accordingly.

 

Makes absolute sense and I have read thatso many times that it begs the question, is it actually so or has it just been repeated so many times that its accepted perhaps incorrectly as fact?

 

Its why if my vehicle was supposed to have it then I would want to test and experience it, I had a Christmas tree of ABS, TPMS and ESC lights up Thursday after a restart with a low battery, when it was safe to do so I did a test and there was no ABS, I had tested the car when I got it with the fuse removed but the discs were rusted then with so-so pads, I now have excellent brakes, so good that without the ABS cadence braking would take a lot more finesse than in any other vehicle, it is overservoed.

 

Having looked at the Westfalia wiring diagrams I cannot see what is used to sense that a trailer plug with a lighting load is in circuit and how that info is transferred ie via the canbus, if anyone has any details of these additional looms for vehicles without towbar prep I would really like to study them.

Regarding my first question, I have some recollection of a Youtube video linked to on this forum on the subject of VAG stability control and vehicle & trailer/caravan combinations, probably posted by Loopski before he identified with rooting n tooting, he has a remarkable memory so may post it again if it was him.

2 hours ago, Urrell said:

 

The Yeti applies brakes individually on the car via sensors like yaw etc to keep safe if they detect sliding or jackknifing etc.
That's why the car needs to be programmed to know a trailer is being towed so it can react accordingly.

 

So again, how does the Yeti apply the trailer brakes differently? So far, the most I'm seeing is that it applies the rear brakes more heavily, and not that it applies the trailer brakes differently when there's an imposed mass on a trailer hitch than when there's the same one one in the cargo bay.

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by KenONeill

It controls the stability by as I said "On the car" keeping things under control. Plenty of YouTube videos on how it is done.
 

 

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Urrell

I can only imagine that any car stability system can only ever work on the car itself, applying the car brakes as it sees fit. A trailer or caravan attached wouldn’t have its brakes controlled by the car. But if the car became unstable due to the effects of the trailer, the stability system would automatically apply braking to the car. 

 

I have a system like like this called ATC on my caravan, which applies brakes to individual wheels as necessary if it detects a stability problem. 

 

Ive never had this feature on any car I’ve owned, so I guess if I had non coded towing electrics fitted to a Yeti which deactivated the stability feature of the car, I’d be in no worse place than I’ve ever been as I’ve never had the benefit of having it?

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Dale_Stevens

13 minutes ago, Dale_Stevens said:

Ive never had this feature on any car I’ve owned, so I guess if I had non coded towing electrics fitted to a Yeti which deactivated the stability feature of the car, I’d be in no worse place than I’ve ever been as I’ve never had the benefit of having it?

 

That's like saying I never wore seatbelts before 1983 so it would have no consequence if I did not wear them now or running tyres down to the cords.

49 minutes ago, Urrell said:

 

That's like saying I never wore seatbelts before 1983 so it would have no consequence if I did not wear them now or running tyres down to the cords.

No it’s not as you could say that about almost any feature of a modern car, such as ABS, Traction Contriol etc, whereas seatbelt are a legal requirement and stability control isn’t, it’s just an added bonus safety feature. 

 

My wifes Tiguan can be set to maintain a set distance from the car in front, with automatic breaking, but I normally turn that off when I’m driving it. Doesn’t change anything as I can drive without it. 

 

I’d prefer to have use of stability control on a Yeti, but if I bought one with a non coded towbar then I wouldn’t be in a rush to do anything about it. 

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Dale_Stevens

@Urrell @Dale_Stevens - Again, neither of you has actually shown how a Yeti tells a car tail load from a trailer is different to one from a load in the boot. Urrell, this does actually happen on heavy trucks.

2 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@Urrell @Dale_Stevens - Again, neither of you has actually shown how a Yeti tells a car tail load from a trailer is different to one from a load in the boot. Urrell, this does actually happen on heavy trucks.

 

How can I be expected to tell you? I haven’t got a Yeti and know little about them, which is why I started this thread. 

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Dale_Stevens

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

@Urrell - Again, neither of you has actually shown how a Yeti tells a car tail load from a trailer is different to one from a load in the boot. Urrell, this does actually happen on heavy trucks.

 

Nothing to do with load on the tow-bar, it's by connecting the electrics from what is being towed into the plug on the car.
It's also that that connects it to the alarm system on the car and shows on the reversing sensors display etc.
The load on the tow-bar will adjust the Bi Xenon headlamp beam though if fitted.

1 hour ago, Dale_Stevens said:

if I bought one with a non coded towbar then I wouldn’t be in a rush to do anything about i

 

If I bought one like that I would be more interested about other things being bodged.

12 minutes ago, Urrell said:

 

If I bought one like that I would be more interested about other things being bodged.

 

How is it any different to any other tow car that doesn’t have those features including stability control? 

 

My LR Defender doesnt have it (or any modern features for that matter) so in relation to the Yeti features, what would the difference be between me towing with my Defender and a non coded Yeti? Neither will have effective reversing sensors, self adjusting headlights or stability control? What would I actually be missing?

 

i don’t see those features as vital, amore just added benefits. 

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Dale_Stevens

35 minutes ago, Urrell said:

Nothing to do with load on the tow-bar, it's by connecting the electrics from what is being towed into the plug on the car.

So it doesn't actually have any braking stability system that every Yeti doesn't have because it has this "magical coding incantation" spoken over it. I'd be pretty unconcerned about the other features too, particularly headlight self-leveling because that's another device that should work off masses and not electrical towbar mysticism.

2 hours ago, KenONeill said:

@Urrell @Dale_Stevens - Again, neither of you has actually shown how a Yeti tells a car tail load from a trailer is different to one from a load in the boot. Urrell, this does actually happen on heavy trucks.

 

The moment a trailer is plugged in, all the car knows is that something is being towed, it doesn't need to know the weight, or what it is, but the point is that the behaviour of the ESP system will change to better its performance so it can prevent an accident and not cause one.

1 hour ago, Dale_Stevens said:

 

How is it any different to any other tow car that doesn’t have those features including stability control? 

 

 

 

I will give you 2 answers to that, feel free to pick the one you think is the wiser.

 

A - Because it will have been bodged and there will probably be other bodges on the car, it will have the potential to wipe people out and cause life changing injuries and you might as well tow your caravan with a piece of string.

 

B. It will be as safe as any of the previous cars that you have ever towed with and if you tow with a Yeti or any other modern vehicle even safer because the vehicle will have built in stability control as can be seen from the video if you analyse carefully what was said.

 

I will give you a clue, A is the right answer, it must be true because I read it on the internet, B is total rubbish because I read on the internet that when you react as any good driver who does not abdicate his responsabilities to electronic mysticism you will be fighting against the wonderfull safety system preventing it from doing its job and will crash and burn like a 737 max pilot.

This document seems to explain it:

 

http://www.fyldecoasttowing.co.uk/docs/ESP - how it works.pdf

Presumably the Yeti uses this system?

 

Quote

When the vehicle is determined to be towing, then the yaw sensors that would normally operate with the ESP system, allow for an additional movement which is detected when ‘fishtailing’ occurs. A separate software application has been entered into the brake electronics to allow T-Esp to function. In a number of cases, this needs to be activated using *diagnostic equipment (see next page). In the case of the VW systems, when the T-Esp system activates, it is applied for maximum 30 seconds or until the vehicle/caravan combination is back under control. If it still remains out of control, then the system re-energises for another 30 seconds..... 

 

...When the system activates, the driver really has to concentrate on steering the vehicle within as straight a line as possible. While he is engaged in this, the vehicle is automatically decelerating and braking individual wheels to control the snake.

 

and

 

Quote

To enable the system to function or activate, the car MUST know when it is towing. This information is through the towing socket. Therefore, the use of by-pass electrical installations will NOT under any circumstances, allow this system to operate.

 

1 hour ago, Dale_Stevens said:

My LR Defender doesnt have it (or any modern features for that matter) so in relation to the Yeti features, what would the difference be between me towing with my Defender and a non coded Yeti? Neither will have effective reversing sensors, self adjusting headlights or stability control? What would I actually be missing?

 

Your LR Defender weighs a damn sight more than a Yeti, The Yeti uses electronics to compensate.
I think what you are missing is pretty close.

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

I'd be pretty unconcerned about the other features too, particularly headlight self-leveling because that's another device that should work off masses and not electrical towbar mysticism.

 

You want to read and take in a bit more, the Yetis that have Bi Xenon headlights have a sensor on the rear axle to adjust them depending on the load, if Your tow-bar does not put load on the rear axle it's different to mine.

I do not see why I should answer any more questions on this subject for 2 of you experts that do not need or want driver aids to enhance safety.

38 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

behaviour of the ESP

"Extra-Sensory Perception"? Because no-one is saying anything that indicates any changes in the brakes based on load balancing.

 

@Urrell - So why does the load balancing adjust the headlights and not adjust the brake balance? Your words, not mine... As for you "answering any more questions", try answering the ones already asked first!  

1 hour ago, Dale_Stevens said:

 

How is it any different to any other tow car that doesn’t have those features including stability control? 

 

 

There are 3 scenarios:

 

You don't have stability control at all, you are free to give the car any input you want in the event you lose control and the car will do exactly as you say. You are as safe as you can be with the equipment you have IMO

 

You have stability control and it is correctly coded as per manufacturer, in the event you lose control you are in the hands of the R&D development at VW. Again, IMO you are as safe as you possibly can be.

 

For the me the least favourable situation to be in is a car with ESP thats not correctly coded which means it does not have all the information it needs to make the correct decisions, because like it or not the car is going to intervene and it may not make the correct decision.

1 minute ago, KenONeill said:

"Extra-Sensory Perception"? Because no-one is saying anything that indicates any changes in the brakes based on load balancing.

 

 

 

Not sure what you are on about?

5 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

Not sure what you are on about?

And therein lies the problem; @Urrell and you maintain that this system "is essential" but can't actually tell us what the car does differently when it's fitted.

1 minute ago, KenONeill said:

but can't actually tell us what the car does differently when it's fitted.

See the document linked to in my post above.......

3 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

And therein lies the problem; @Urrell and you maintain that this system "is essential" but can't actually tell us what the car does differently when it's fitted.

Who knows what the programming differences are, all you need to know are that the ESP programs have to be different between cars that are towing and cars that are not because cars that are towing behave a lot differently to those that are not. 
 

I’m not sure if you have been out of control with ESP but you can witness it snatching the brakes independently on certain corners. It’s quite easy to see that a change in ESP behaviour is essential or your beloved caravan will end up in a million pieces. 

32 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

 

There are 3 scenarios:

 

You don't have stability control at all, you are free to give the car any input you want in the event you lose control and the car will do exactly as you say. You are as safe as you can be with the equipment you have IMO

 

You have stability control and it is correctly coded as per manufacturer, in the event you lose control you are in the hands of the R&D development at VW. Again, IMO you are as safe as you possibly can be.

 

For the me the least favourable situation to be in is a car with ESP thats not correctly coded which means it does not have all the information it needs to make the correct decisions, because like it or not the car is going to intervene and it may not make the correct decision.

 

That makes sense, and answers my question, thanks. 

 

With a non coded towing setup, it would be useful to deactivate the cars stability system, but I understand why car manufacturers maybe don’t want customers turning off a safety system and would prefer to advise fitting a coded system instead. 

Edited 12 January, 20206 yr by Dale_Stevens