27 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

Who knows what the programming differences are, all you need to know are that the ESP programs have to be different between cars that are towing and cars that are not because cars that are towing behave a lot differently to those that are not. 
 

I’m not sure if you have been out of control with ESP but you can witness it snatching the brakes independently on certain corners. It’s quite easy to see that a change in ESP behaviour is essential or your beloved caravan will end up in a million pieces. 

I don't claim that I do, nor do I need to do so. All I claim is that these behaviours are functions of the base system, not the fact that a, say 112lb load is applied to a tow ball rather than in the boot.

2 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

I don't claim that I do, nor do I need to do so. All I claim is that these behaviours are functions of the base system, not the fact that a, say 112lb load is applied to a tow ball rather than in the boot.

We already know the car has no magic sensors that can weigh loads. The main point of it all is that there is a pivoted load on the back. 

17 minutes ago, SuperbTWM said:

We already know the car has no magic sensors that can weigh loads. The main point of it all is that there is a pivoted load on the back. 

Do we? Then how does ESP work to brake wheels, or headlight leveling detect that there is a load on the back axle? Given that these things do both occur, how does a load on a tow ball differ, since the ESP doesn't brake the trailer?

 

Oh and if you think that ESP is such an "important safety system", why am I the one who's never activated a "stability" system?

levelling  -- load cells tied in with electronickery perhaps?

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

particularly headlight self-leveling because that's another device that should work off masses 

?

 

Headlight self-levelling will not work by using a mass or 'pendulum'?

for a start, the headlight levelling system has nothing to do with the ESP as far as I’m aware so I’m not sure why your bringing it up. 
 

Secondly, the car uses accelerometers, yaw sensors, the steering angle sensors and the abs sensors themselves to determine what each wheel is doing, what angle the car is travelling and what direction you are trying to steer it in. 

 

Again for the third time the main difference in a car that is towing is the huge load on the back that is a pivot point making it more sensitive than normal to any outputs from the ESP system.

 

11 minutes ago, muddyjim said:

?

 

Headlight self-levelling will not work by using a mass or 'pendulum'?

Are you suggesting that the mass of a axle reacts differently? because I'd love to know how that works!

17 hours ago, J.R. said:

Llanigraham.

 

What do you find so disturbing about when I thank someone like Wino or Idleness for their postings that you feel the need to click on an unhelpfull icon?

 

Is it  restricted to me?

 

I can answer that, you have given close to 4000 votes pretty much all of them thanks or positive, only 4 ever unhelpfull all given to me on this one topic.

Simply because you are providing unhelpful and inaccurate comments and you refuse to accept what several of us with over 10 years of Yeti experience are telling you.

Just now, KenONeill said:

Are you suggesting that the mass of a axle reacts differently? because I'd love to know how that works!

How much experience of towing do you have?

1 minute ago, Llanigraham said:

Simply because you are providing unhelpful and inaccurate comments and you refuse to accept what several of us with over 10 years of Yeti experience are telling you.

Well, in my case I refuse to accept "proof by assertion", which is all you've done.

6 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Well, in my case I refuse to accept "proof by assertion", which is all you've done.

So 12 years experience of towing with Yeti's, and assisting and advising numerous members here in my case means nothing.
And according to your details you don't even have a Yeti.

 

Well its kind of hard to accept being told that I clearly have no knowledge of vehicle electronics when I have studied and worked in the field since 1992, especially from someone whose experience would appear to be that of writing cheques, swallowing and repeating what they are told without being able to explain or show any understanding of the subject.

 

I am the first to admit that my knowledge is not current, I do not actively work in the field any more but I maintain my knowledge by working on my own vehicles, keeping a keen interest on the subject and having an enquiring mind.

 

What I dont do is tell people that they are completely wrong, that they refuse to accept what I am telling them because I dont tell people anything, I give my opinions based on knowledge and experience, first hand not repeated, most of the time I am asking for information to understand the other persons position.

 

I dont call people bodgers because they work on their own cars or tell them that they and their vehicles are a danger to the public and could cause life threatening injuries, i dont say that if they dont want to get their cheque book out then why dont they just tow their caravan with a piece of string, one day I wont be able to work on my vehicles any more, when that happens I will admire not castigate those that still can and I will redouble my efforts to understand each change in technology because in general the motor trade lags further and further behind.

Mysticism vs scepticism 🤣

Handbags at 10 paces, behind the bike shed at playtime it is then!

29 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Are you suggesting that the mass of a axle reacts differently? because I'd love to know how that works!

 

I am simply stating a fact "Headlight self-levelling will not work by using a mass or 'pendulum";

 

It is a popular misconception that a weight or pendulum can be used as a basis for self levelling headlights. While this may work as a canon aiming device on a tank, it will be useless for headlight levelling, when driving up a hill the headlights would point into the road, and when driving down a hill they would point into the sky.......

1 hour ago, Llanigraham said:

Llanigraham.

 

What do you find so disturbing about when I thank someone like Wino or Idleness for their postings that you feel the need to click on an unhelpfull icon?

 

Simply because you are providing unhelpful and inaccurate comments and you refuse to accept what several of us with over 10 years of Yeti experience are telling you.

 

 

Thanking someone for explaining something is common courtesy, it is neither inaccurate nor unhelpful, you may consider that other postings I have made are, thats your prerogative and your feedback good or bad is welcomed but clicking on unhelpful every time I post a thankyou having never clicked on unhelpful for any other contributor in close to 4000 feedbacks is trollying (new word I learned from the AbFab film 🤣)

1 hour ago, muddyjim said:

 

I am simply stating a fact "Headlight self-levelling will not work by using a mass or 'pendulum";

 

It is a popular misconception that a weight or pendulum can be used as a basis for self levelling headlights. While this may work as a canon aiming device on a tank, it will be useless for headlight levelling, when driving up a hill the headlights would point into the road, and when driving down a hill they would point into the sky.......

Well, I don't remember saying, or even deliberately implying, that!! Leaving aside the misspelling of "cannon", what I said was meant to be that a mass displaces an axle, and that displacement operates the headlight self-leveling (when fitted) irrespective of what incantations may or may not have been said over the suspension as part of bolting on a tow bar!

This quote from a guy on a kitcar forum I am a member of!

 

'There is something to be said for basics, but also for a bit of tech that knows when you have a trailer attached.'

 

He drives a selection of vehicles , but the above relates to a Range Rover Disco

On 12/01/2020 at 15:41, KenONeill said:

On 12/01/2020 at 14:55, SuperbTWM said:

behaviour of the ESP

"Extra-Sensory Perception"? Because no-one is saying anything that indicates any changes in the brakes based on load balancing.

 

He is showing what he knows about it by saying that.
Anybody that knows what we are talking about knows it is Electronic Stability Program!
As cars have had rear brake balance on for years why any need to mention it?

On 18/01/2020 at 10:08, Urrell said:

had rear brake balance on for years

And nothing except "some Skodas" has ever needed "special coding" to make that work with a towed load!

http://westfalia-automotive.com/uk/workshop/coding-to-trailer-operation

 

 

VCDSUserGuide.pdf

 

Skoda Yeti Bj. 2015. Encode towbar after installation. Rear fog lamp and parking distance (PDC) shutdown.

 

 

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

49 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

And nothing except "some Skodas" has ever needed "special coding" to make that work with a towed load!

 

WRONG!!
Many cars, including all those made by the VAG group, have needed coding for some years.

As a mature driver (read old), I'm surprised that the CANBUS system has not been fully understood - it took me a while to nearly understand it, then it was blindingly obvious.

When a car has "tow bar prep", the factory wires in a towing harness with a CANBUS hub. Without a trailer everything works as normal. When a trailer is electrically connected, the CANBUS recognises there is a different load in the wiring system via micro signals - much like broadband in a domestic mains wiring powerline systems. Ie, there is a different load on all the elements of the rear end/trailer power requirements. The extra resistance of all the loads, lights etc signals a difference before the plug was inserted This is obvious when it can tell you which lamp bulb has failed.

This signals to the hub to the fact that a trailer is connected - nothing to do with anything physical about the trailer; size, weight, number of wheels, trailer braking or not etc. 

There is then an immediate change in the existing body control systems which the CANbus looks up in it's map, and applies a generic vehicle/trailer stabilisation/ body control regime.

It won't sort everything out obviously, but is a valuable safety system. Nothing much will replace a careful driver however many electronics systems there are.    

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

And nothing except "some Skodas" has ever needed "special coding" to make that work with a towed load!

 

Keep up, I was replying to say they have rear brake balance depending on load but that has nothing to do with the electronic stability control whether towing or not.
Waiting for you to pick the bones out of that!