Leaking panoramic roof - part deux

[StuH78]

Despite many, many attempts with Captain Tolley I had no joy.  I tried a recommendation on a marine forum; https://www.flytesofancy.co.uk/chickenhouses/Burgess-Marine-Creepy-Crackseal--100ml--CCSEAL.html.  I had much better results with it, it stemmed the tide, for a while, but it still came back.   So, time to step things up.  I was going to drop the whole roof, strip and seal the joints but it would need two people to safely drop it so given the current rules (and not trusting the missus) that's a non-starter at the moment.  I did decide this morning to remove the headlining at have a look.  An hour later:

 

http://

 

http://

 

I did have to fold the headlining a bit to get it out but what the hell.  Sealed everything I can around the joints.  Going to let it cure for a couple of hours before I put it back together.  In the meantime, will give the headlining a good clean.

[StuH78]

Took quite a bit longer to put it all back together 😆.  We'll see if it's done anything.  With two mating surfaces you really want to seal between them but that's not possible with removing the roof itself.  Anyway, we'll see..

[superbdreams]

what did you have to unscrew and remove to get the headlining out?

 

Will be doing this in the summer as I also used some captain trolleys even though i didnt have a problem but now I do. coincidence i am sure.

I can see the drips if i open the sunroof and peer in between the headlining and sunroof frame.

I am debating making a drip tray with its own drain pipe to sit underneath where the front sunroof rail and side rails join as this is the problem.

[StuH78]

I started at the front and worked my way back removing:

 

A Pillar trim (just unclip top part)

Sun visors

Vanity mirror lights

Centre roof consul

Front grab handles

B pillar trim (top part)

Rear grab handles

Lights

Side bolsters of rear seat (needed to expose a screw)

All boot trim from glass level up

 

Sounds a lot but it's common sense really but I also have the workshop manual which helped.  

[DEL80Y]

I found the hardest part was removing the sunvisor screw clip and the bl00dy grab handle clips😷

[StuH78]

Handles are okay with the right tool but I can't remember where I got it from so I can't put a link.  The visors are bad and it's a poor bit of routing of the cable.

[superbdreams]

On 29/03/2020 at 18:33, DEL80Y said:

grab handle clips

not screws?

[StuH78]

14 hours ago, superbdreams said:

not screws?

Yep, no screws, just clips designed by Germans to ruin your life.  One tip though; make sure the clips go back in the same location, so left clip goes back there.

[Lutz]

Quick update from my side. I have leaking panoramic roof issue with my second car VW Sharan (similar to Superb) and I´m in the process fixing it. First just to mention, that I started sealing also with Captain Tollys Cure and this is not working at all. So I continued with plan B, which means removing headliner and panoramic roof from car, clean old adhesive from the panoramic roof frame joint and glued all back together with some proper heavy duty automotive adhesive (4CR 6.5100). Also it´s worth to mention, that surface of the joint should be sanded (or even primed) for better grip. This is also very good option to clean the rails from old grase (they are always dirty) and add new grase. I have removed headliner and now looking to someone to help me remove my panoramic roof. I´m also plannig to make tutorial video, but lets see how long the lockdown will last. 

 

Here you can see my car frame joints, where water is leaking in:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArqD60L2XvsykSZ6ZhPRmw7EfiVz

 

I think the only way to make it done properly and watertight is to remove whole piece, clean it and glue all back together.

Edited 5 April, 2020 by Lutz

[StuH78]

The official Skoda repair as detailed in the workshop manual is to split the joint an reseal using butyl tape.  I would have done that but seeing as we're not allowed contact outside the family home I couldn't ask anyone to come and help.

[superbdreams]

On 05/04/2020 at 16:53, StuH78 said:

butyl tape?

wrapped around or sandwiched between the joints?

[StuH78]

Between.  You'll see this (minus the knife):

 

http://

 

The manual states you split the joint with a knife then pull the two surfaces apart.   Thepe channel is cleaned and butyl adhesive cord with a diameter of 3.5mm is placed in the channel and the joint put back together.

[StuH78]

Didn't work.  So, took the whole damn thing out yesterday, tried my best the clean the joints and get sealant in.  Front went well, the existing seal had just about given up so could get in there.  Rear much more difficult and I can't be positive it will be successful.

 

Put it all back together and dropped a ball somewhere.  Everything seemed to go smooth until I put the glass back in and tried to close the roof.  It got down to the tilt position and a few loud clicks and that was it.  What a job after that.  Got it working with the glass out but soon as the the glass goes in it all goes wrong - one side seems out of sync with the other.  Thankfully the manual override has allowed me to at least get it back in position.  I've given up for the minute.  It's in the closed position so I've pulled the plug out until I can think more clearly.  Hate that roof.

[StuH78]

So, update time.  By cross referencing VAG codes I found that the Sharan and it SEAT sister was still using the same panoramic roof as late as 2019, this is the last model to use the same roof I believe.  So with that knowledge I set out trying to find as new a roof as possible.  Didn't take long -  I actually found a complete roof off a 2018 Sharan on eBay.  A four hour round trip and £200 later I had a roof ready to go in.  Despite the seller thinking otherwise, the roof went in no problem.  Well there was a problem - the blind was shut and wouldn't open, the motor was stuffed, so much for being in perfect working order.  I manually removed the blind, which was jammed quite bad (probably why the motor was stuffed).  I installed the motor and blind from my old roof and away we went.  I say the motor was stuffed, when I stripped it down it was actually the cog that had been stripped, tut tut, I'd have thought something more substantial than a nylon would have been more appropriate to use. 

 

The roof, whilst largely the same design as the one it replaced does have some differences; there's far more factory sealant on the joints, the actual frame feels stiffer and the drain channels are slightly deeper.  Clearly they tried to improve the roof over the time it was used, is it enough? who knows, better be!

 

The glass on the new roof had a few scratched and the old glass was better so I swapped them.  My old blind has seen better days, I've repaired it once and don't think I can be bothered again so I'll order a new one.

 

Fingers crossed!

[rover220]

Great work, know who to contact for roof help now!!!! 

[Lutz]

StuH78, do you know, in which year the panoramic roof was improved (thicker sealant etc)?

[StuH78]

Sorry no idea, I took the chance that they'd make improvements as they went on that's why I wanted one as young as possible.  No guarantees though as even new cars out of the showroom have had the problem.

[StuH78]

And back to pouring in again.  What an absolute load of junk that roof is.  Love the car in general, got it running really well but I'm not sure I can cope with this anymore.  

[Lutz]

@StuH78, can please describe in more detail what you actually did with your panoramic roof in spring last year? I mean did you removed panoramic roof entirely from the car and opened/cleaned joints with new sealant or butyl tape? Or did you added glue, when panoramic roof was attached to the car? My Captain Tollys Cure fix still works, but I´m preparing myself to tear down.

[StuH78]

As above really.  The hardest part is removing the headliner, it just doesn't want to come out without folding.  I think if you removed every piece of trim it would be that's a huge job.  Once the headlining is out it's quite simple.  The blind for the roof wants to spring out so watch that.  Once out, you could try to seal inbetween the joints just be careful trying to seperate them as the plastic is weak.  I think my attempt as sealing between the joints would have been successful but I made a mistake refitting the roof which caused damaged to the motor gearing (which is very very soft plastic).

 

I did find this earlier: http://www.audicomplaints.com/sunroof-leaks/

[StuH78]

So I had a look and the only place dry as the joint that I presume was the issue.  The real issue was immediately apparant.  The drain pipe had completely collapsed as can been seen in the photo.  The whole roof had obviosly filled and run over the edge.  I've manage to cobble a temporay replacement and water is flowing out.   Still got something happening on one of the rears but hopefully the majoy culprit is sorted.

 

 

[superbdreams]

I had intended to spend some time last summer making a secondary drip tray that would wrap around the front corners where it leaks and where the drain pipe connects.

My plan was to seal it against and underneath the track and make a new nipple on the secondary tray to drain the water into the tube.

It even occurred to me that if i made a fibreglass version as intended that someone could scan it and make them with a 3d printer (reversing for the opposite side would be a doddle with a pc too).

It has now further occured to whilst pondering which 3m double sided adhesive would be appropriate - that the 3m seal itself could surely just be adhered to the joint of the straight track to the bend . (where they leak and where you are supposed to fit the rubber seal) single sided adhesive would clearly work fine too.

What do others think of this plan?

[superbdreams]

I may have found the perfect tape.

 

• Very good resistance to many common industrial solvents as well as elevated temperature exposure
• Tacky adhesive sticks on contact for immediate bond with no drying time, oozing, or clean up
• Grey, 1 mm thick, conformable tape forms effective seals over contours, edges, rivets, and screw heads
• Durable ionomer backing resists UV and chemical exposure

3M™ Extreme Sealing Tape 4411G is a grey, 1 mm thick, highly conformable, single-side acrylic tape with a high performance ionomer backing. Our tape was specifically designed to give you professional results under outdoor exposure to direct sunlight, as well as temperature and humidity extremes while creating an effective seal over an existing joint, seam, or penetration.

3M™ Extreme Sealing Tape 4411G is an ideal solution for "roof-to-trim" sealing and sealing around roof top mechanical fasteners on commercial vehicles, eliminating the need for large quantities of liquid sealants. It is very tacky and meets the needs for a wide variety of difficult sealing applications. As a single coated tape, the sealing is generally done by "oversealing" an existing joint or penetration,

[StuH78]

At the risk of tempting fate since I repaird the damaged hose I've had no sign of water ingress from the roof.  I still had the rear left corner to look at but that's stopped now.  I suspect the hose might have been a major issue from the start.  I did check it when I first noticed the problem but I'm thinking it was failing and couldn't see it when the headliner was back in place.