I know there's a number of threads going at the minute relating to dampers, springs and sway bars, but I wanted to ask, which of the options is the better at reducing the float/bounce while also improving corner ability by reducing lean?

 

I think most agree that the Superb 280 is a great car, but the suspension is just too soft. When you go over certain bumps in the road the car seems to want to continue bouncing which means it doesn't feel planted. Then, when cornering, compared to my old Octavia VRS, you have to ease off the power into the corner as the car leans too much.

 

I'm in a position where I want to make some improvements to how the car handles without reducing the ride height if I can, and without negatively impacting the ride quality too much.

 

There seems to be three individual options (unless you want to do them all!);

 

1. Fit a stiffer rear sway bar (ARB), some have already done this, and I believe it reduces some of the lean in the corners, but I don't think it will do anything to reduce the float/bouncing.

2. Fit stiffer springs, this will for sure firm up the ride a little at the consequence of lowering the ride height, which I'm trying to avoid.

3. Fit aftermarket shocks such as the Koni Special Actives. This should have a positive impact removing the float/bounce as they'll control the rebound better, but I'm unsure how much of an improvement there will be while on the standard springs

 

I'm leaning towards fitting Koni Actives, I think it'll help remove the bounce, but I'm not sure what impact it will have on cornering on the standard springs. The other alternative would be to fit stiffer springs and a stiffer ARB, I guess this would improve cornering, but will it have much impact on float/bouncing.

 

What is the primary cause of the bouncing? It's the dampers?

Ideally I guess you'd do all three options, but that's more than I'm willing to spend.

Edited 22 May, 20206 yr by TheBinarySheep

Its a pita that we can't get stiffer springs of the same size 🙁

From a dynamic point of view: if the damping is too fast (extra bouncy) then stiffer springs will make it worse. It may not lean as much but the bounce will be worse. To correct the issue you have you need better damping so fitting konis or bilstein b6 will help a lot. Then a rear sway bar to counter the body roll. 

1 hour ago, MarkyG82 said:

From a dynamic point of view: if the damping is too fast (extra bouncy) then stiffer springs will make it worse. It may not lean as much but the bounce will be worse. To correct the issue you have you need better damping so fitting konis or bilstein b6 will help a lot. Then a rear sway bar to counter the body roll. 

Mark is right. The dampers are the issue on the non-DCC cars and changing springs will not address it properly.  The rear arb is really a cheap mod with optimal gains on cornering. It won't affect ride comfort or height but it also won't fix the overall floatiness.

My advice is don't go for half-measures but for a good coilover set which you'll be able to set in a reasonable height also to maintain practicality (can't do that with aftermarket springs). You are fortunate enough to not have DCC (am I right on that?) so several affordable compatible solutions and you will appreciate an upgraded suspension virtually all of the time.

After that, if you really want the maximum cornering improvement fit a better rear arb too (less than 300GBP) and you'll be in a completely new car handling wise. Overall still a small price to pay imo for the amount of improvement it will bring.

1 hour ago, newbie69 said:

Mark is right. The dampers are the issue on the non-DCC cars and changing springs will not address it properly.  The rear arb is really a cheap mod with optimal gains on cornering. It won't affect ride comfort or height but it also won't fix the overall floatiness.

My advice is don't go for half-measures but for a good coilover set which you'll be able to set in a reasonable height also to maintain practicality (can't do that with aftermarket springs). You are fortunate enough to not have DCC (am I right on that?) so several affordable compatible solutions and you will appreciate an upgraded suspension virtually all of the time.

After that, if you really want the maximum cornering improvement fit a better rear arb too (less than 300GBP) and you'll be in a completely new car handling wise. Overall still a small price to pay imo for the amount of improvement it will bring.

 

Yes you're correct, non DCC.

I don't suppose you happen to know of a compatible coilover set for the superb? It doesn't look like Koni do one.

 

I've found KW do some, but at £1700 that's way more than I was willing to pay.

 

I do wonder if I may just have to bite the bullet and get some Konis and some new springs if coilovers are going to be too expensive.

Edited 22 May, 20206 yr by TheBinarySheep

15 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

 

Yes you're correct, non DCC.

I don't suppose you happen to know of a compatible coilover set for the superb? It doesn't look like Koni do one.

 

I've found KW do some, but at £1700 that's way more than I was willing to pay.

 

I do wonder if I may just have to bite the bullet and get some Konis and some new springs if coilovers are going to be too expensive.

K & W also do cheaper ST X Coilovers for non DCC cars from 2015. Part no. 132800AQ £771 or with damping adjustment Part no. 182800AP £967.

I wonder how good these are https://www.stanceduk.com/products/stance-street-coilovers-kit-skoda-superb-mk3-3v-2-0-tsi-tdi-multi-link-rear ???

 

surely at that price they can't be that good?

Bilstein b6 is stock height so can use original springs. 

2 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

I wonder how good these are https://www.stanceduk.com/products/stance-street-coilovers-kit-skoda-superb-mk3-3v-2-0-tsi-tdi-multi-link-rear ???

 

surely at that price they can't be that good?

No wonder they are listed as SOLD OUT at just £270.

6 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

Bilstein b6 is stock height so can use original springs. 

 

Yeh the Koni's are stock height as well. I'm just concerned what impact only changing the shocks will have. I have certain traits I want to remove from the car, and I'm just worried about spending too much money and not getting rid of them.

 

4 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

I wonder how good these are https://www.stanceduk.com/products/stance-street-coilovers-kit-skoda-superb-mk3-3v-2-0-tsi-tdi-multi-link-rear ???

 

surely at that price they can't be that good?

Please don't. Cheap coilovers should burn in hell, absolutely the worst item on a car to cheap out on.

 

 

34 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

 

Yes you're correct, non DCC.

I don't suppose you happen to know of a compatible coilover set for the superb? It doesn't look like Koni do one.

 

I've found KW do some, but at £1700 that's way more than I was willing to pay.

 

I do wonder if I may just have to bite the bullet and get some Konis and some new springs if coilovers are going to be too expensive.

For example, Bilstein's B14 is a pretty popular choice in VAG cars. It will definitely be firmer but also the handling will be improve  A LOT, their price is very reasonable but then they don't offer damping adjustment, only height, so you need to make sure they are right for you.

https://www.awesomegti.com/brands/bilstein/bilstein-b14-coilover-kit-skoda-superb-iii-3v/

How firm is too firm is  quite subjective. Some may find it perfect while to others it can be too much. I don't have hands on experience with any coilover set on a Superb/Passat (also a good car to ask around owners for their experiences) so I can't recommend anything hand in heart, I just know B14 is a popular choice. that you should investigate further and try to find out whether it's the one for you.

I fitted them to my octy prior to having lowering springs fitted. Had it like that for about 6 months and was really good. Much more controlled. They will be my go to shocks for replacement on any car from now on.

1 minute ago, newbie69 said:

 

Please don't. Cheap coilovers should burn in hell, absolutely the worst item on a car to cheap out on.

 

 

For example, Bilstein's B14 is a pretty popular choice in VAG cars. It will definitely be firmer but also the handling will be improve  A LOT, their price is very reasonable but then they don't offer damping adjustment, only height, so you need to make sure they are right for you.

https://www.awesomegti.com/brands/bilstein/bilstein-b14-coilover-kit-skoda-superb-iii-3v/

How firm is too firm is  quite subjective. Some may find it perfect while to others it can be too much. I don't have hands on experience with any coilover set on a Superb/Passat (also a good car to ask around owners for their experiences) so I can't recommend anything hand in heart, I just know B14 is a popular choice. that you should investigate further and try to find out whether it's the one for you.

Thanks

Given that they're height adjustable, fitting coilovers would have the same impact as fitting new shocks and lowering springs? Most lowering springs I've looked at lower the car about 30mm, and the B14's lower between 30-50mm. I don't really want to go lower anyway, so lowering by 30mm would be my max. A set of Koni Actives and some H&R springs would come in around £200 cheaper than the B14s.

KW Street Comfort offer minimum lowering between 10mm - 40mm so they could be ideal:

https://www.kwsuspensions.net/productfinder/_/54/Coilovers/180800AF 

You need to make sure product numbers for your car with a suspension shop though, couldn't find the correct one.

Edited 26 May, 20206 yr by newbie69

It depends on what you are after. An improvement on stock with little maintenance and no fettling: shocks and springs. Greater performance and a willing to learn setup and how it affects the handling: coilovers. 

There is a crossover budget wise around the bilstein b12 price range I believe so for 6-800 you could have a fit and forget improvement or a fit and fiddle. 

But there is always the risk of screwing something up with coils and getting it back to a good starting point can be a bit of work.

I'm not at all interested in fiddling to be honest.

 

I'd like a setup that's still comfortable but at the same time I'd like some improved handling and reduced bouncing.

Was doing some reading on shock upgrades for the Golf 7R and found out people were favoring replacing the factory Monroe shocks with B6 ones and leave springs stock. B6 are monotube shocks rated for more load than the stock twin-tube which should result in improved handling, plus they are a OEM replacement item meaning they should work well with stock spring rates. I can't think of anything more OEM+ than this and if it provides an improvement on the already firmer setup of the Golf 7R I imagine it would do the same even more on the Superb. I didn;t get to any actual reviews though, just estimations based on the technical characteristics so more investigation is needed to read reviews from people who actually went that way.

In fact those shocks mentioned there were DCC compatible too, which means even DCC cars have now an affordable improvement option (assuming there are models for the Passat/Superb) but I belive there should be non-DCC models too.

I am looking into this as I wouldn't mind a DCC compatible, yet affordable upgrade at some point.

32 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

I didn;t get to any actual reviews though, just estimations based on the technical characteristics so more investigation is needed to read reviews from people who actually went that way

Scrap what I said about reviews ! A guy replaced stock shocks on his mk7 GTI with B6's (non-DCC) and he only had positive things to say about them, below:

An MK7 GTI with stock springs and B6 is a VAST improvement on an already competent factory setup. The ride will be firmer, which is not exactly ideal on a rough roads, but in all other driving situations it will put a smile on your face. The car will feel extra-German! Bilstein monotubes are pressurized with about 350psi of nitrogen and this will add a bit to your springs. My educated-guess is about 15lbs, which would make them feel nearly identical to R springs. Honestly if you are driving a lot of dirt or gravel you might want to stick with the OEM Sachs, but if you want it to feel like a sportscar go for the B6. Nothing wrong with OEM GTI springs. Once you do this I doubt you will ever buy Koni again.

* Keep in mind those findings were when coupled with GTI's springs, stock on that car. Maybe the Superb needs new springs too (although Sportline should be a bit sitffer already) so something to consider*


Also, another guy went for the DCC enabled B6 (more expensive) and also was only positive about them:

My initial impressions are extremely positive. Build quality and fitment are great and there were no issues with install. Per one of the earlier posts, I wouldn’t be surprised if the the set-up increased the suspension compression rate a bit through greater pressure in the tubes. Rebound is noticeably improved - Normal now feels a bit stiffer/sportier than Race (Sport) used to; Comfort is a bit stiffer than the old Normal setting; Race (Sport) is beyond what I consider tolerable for daily driving, but now finally feels ‘sporty. The real question about this set-up for most people is the price vs. performance. For around $1400 + install, you’re in the same price range as the B16 PSS10 coilovers and many other similar options. What made the decision for me was a desire to maintain the DCC functionality and achieve an OEM+ ride quality (with Bilstein’s limited lifetime warranty on the parts as a bonus).

 

Could we have found the golden balance of OEM+ improvement while avoiding lowering and expensive coilover sets??   This sounds like a win-win option.


The non-DCC B6 is actually pretty affordable:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bilstein-4x-B6-Car-Shock-Absorbers-Dampers-24-229890-35-229872/253273842520?fits=Car+Make%3ASkoda|Model%3ASuperb&hash=item3af84c2358:g:JL4AAOSwDwNeZ-D3

Edited 22 May, 20206 yr by newbie69

14 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

...When you go over certain bumps in the road the car seems to want to continue bouncing which means it doesn't feel planted.

Well, you just have to be fully aware that reducing the bouncing implies more damping (at least a greater damping factor) and the consequence of that is reduced ride comfort. Well, nearly.If you find that a bouncy ride is very uncomfortble, you might find a firmer ride more comfortable, but that's not the way most people define comfort.

 

14 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

I know there's a number of threads going at the minute relating to dampers, springs and sway bars, but I wanted to ask, which of the options is the better at reducing the float/bounce while also improving corner ability by reducing lean?

 

If I am understanding you correctly, it isn't the lean that causes it. If you  look at a model of one end of the car, the ourside wheel loads up and the inside wheel unloads. When the inside wheel gets to zero vertical load, or even close to that, the grip at that wheel decreases dramatically. Then try to apply traction, positive or negative, and the wheel just spins.

 

A rear ARB wil decrease lean _slightly_; if you change the roll stiffness at one end _dramatically_, you will change the car's understeer/oversteer balance quite a bit (not _proportionally_, but enough to upset the handling), Now adding rear stiffness is probably fine if you want the car to oversteer more/understeer less, but otherwise you have to be cautious.

 

You are right to think that upping the spring rate will do little to reduce the amplitude of the bouncing, although it will occur a little faster. I doubt this can make you happy.

 

The primary cause of the bouncing is mathematically a bit complex, but, roughly it is the dampers not controlling the various resonances in the system. The thing most likely to make the problem go away is more damping, although stiffer tyre sidewalls can help _a little_. Particularly if you already have 'XL' tyres, a litle extra pressure may help _a little_, but only a little. (If you don't have XL tyres, why not?) And, it can cause tyre patter, which decreases grip.

 

In your position, the thing where I would look at spending money to have a moderate-sized impact would be two way adjustables. They are not cheap, but -

-non-adjustable (but 'sporty') dampers will usually give you a bit more damping, but who knows whether the right amount?

-one way are a step better, but you might find that by the time you have got to an extreme setting to control your basic problem, the unbalance between bounce and rebound damping gives rise to sone odd dynamic effects

-two ways give you the options, but there might be too many options for simple set-up; probably, if someone with experience of the car, and/or fitting the shocks fits them, they will be close to right from the start, but if your average spanner-wielder does them, he may well not have the experience to know where he should start and there might be more trial and error.

 

Sorry about the spellinmg errors, but its late and I can barely see the keyboard...Well that's my excuse!

I appreciate the responses so far.

I feel going the route of fitting adjustable coilovers is overkill. I understand this is a family car and having it drive like it's on rails isn't realistic, and nor do I want it to feel like that. We had an Abarth 500 once, and the wife really wasn't at all impressed with the firmness of the ride. The Octavia VRS was used to have was comfortable in every day driving, it didn't lean too much in the corners and it when driving down a country road you didn't feel like the car was going to bounce its way into a hedge, it didn't have expensive adjustable coilovers. I want an OEM feel, I just think Skoda got the damping wrong on the non-DCC Superb. I want the car to feel how it should have felt when it came from the factory. I suspect Skoda made the suspension the way it is on the Sportline just incase they decided to produce a VRS version. I guess that's what I'm aiming for, a VRS Superb, comfortable, but a 'little' sporty.

 

I can't help that the Koni Actives might just be what I need. My understanding is that they'll reduce some of the bounce by providing more damping that the standard shocks, and they'll also reduce a 'small' amount of lean due to the way they stiffen up under load? If I feel there's still to much lean, then fitting a stiffer ARB at a later date could be an option?

The B6's look like a good option too, but, konis are £650 fitted, B6's would be around £1,000, which more than I was wanting to pay.

I have to cross a quarry railway line twice a day on my commute and in the wife's Karoq on 18" alloys with 215/50 tyres it is comfortable with no bounce (rebound) in either direction. What is odd about the Superb Sportline damping though is going uphill over the railway line I can take it at 40mph (the speed limit) and there is no bounce but returning home at 30mph there are 2 bounces as the suspension is caught out by the weight of the car plus the nose down approach presumably. It is very odd how it is only a problem going downhill.

3 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

The B6's look like a good option too, but, konis are £650 fitted, B6's would be around £1,000, which more than I was wanting to pay.

I paid something like 580 for my b6 set and then roughly 100 for fitting. Got them from autodoc. Bit of a strange experience but good price and was able to return easily enough (my fault for not checking the figment before hitting go). 

12 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

I paid something like 580 for my b6 set and then roughly 100 for fitting. Got them from autodoc. Bit of a strange experience but good price and was able to return easily enough (my fault for not checking the figment before hitting go). 

 

Sorry, i meant Bilstein B12's would be about a £1000 fitted, my mistake. Although it doesn't look like the B12's are available for the Superb. B14 seems to be the next choice, but it lowers the vehicle between 30-50mm.

 

If I were to get the B6's. I'd probably opt for the Kong Actives as they're about £100 cheaper.

 

I've been quoted £200 to fit a set of new shocks at a local garage, £100 would be a steal!! I might ring around and see if I can get a better price.

7 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

 

Sorry, i meant Bilstein B12's would be about a £1000 fitted, my mistake. Although it doesn't look like the B12's are available for the Superb. B14 seems to be the next choice, but it lowers the vehicle between 30-50mm.

 

If I were to get the B6's. I'd probably opt for the Kong Actives as they're about £100 cheaper.

 

I've been quoted £200 to fit a set of new shocks at a local garage, £100 would be a steal!! I might ring around and see if I can get a better price.

Did you check the ebay link?  B6's are £660 and could probably be found even cheaper so same price as Koni's. Personally between them I would always rather go with Bilstein. The B6 aim for this OEM+  improvement that feels as it could have easily come from factory, not as firm as B8's that are meant for sportier use. Sounds exactly like you'are after.

I don't think B14's would suit you. Firmer, more expensive, and lower the car too much for your requirements.