Im looking at the idea of putting a Fabia gen 2 1.4 litre 16v engine in my Felicia. It has similar power and torque to my 1.6 litre Felicia engine. I dont particularly want better power, but a newer more economical more environmentally friendly engine. Im thinking its going to be easier to get parts for it in the future too compared to an old Felicia engine.

What are people's thoughts on this?

What would DVLA do re tax?

What would insures do?
Is it even possible? If so are engine mounts similar enough?

I'd have significant doubts about "more economical, more environmentally friendly" to be honest. What mpg are you getting with the 1.6?

8 minutes ago, Wino said:

I'd have significant doubts about "more economical, more environmentally friendly" to be honest. What mpg are you getting with the 1.6?

Well Its not been driven since I brought it as its my project car, so the answer is I dont know. I know an ICE and one thats of an age of the Fabia gen 2 isnt going to really be environmentally friendly what petrol or diesel engine would be, but its surely an improvement on a Felicia engine?   

I would imagine there's very little difference in economy or emissions. Fundamentally very similar technology. More recent engines have to meet tighter specs for certain pollutants, which tends to reduce efficiency.

Don't be fooled by higher claimed mpg/lower CO2 figures. The discrepancy between claimed and real-world has simply increased.

Edited 18 July, 20205 yr by Wino

1 minute ago, Wino said:

I would imagine there's very little difference in economy or emissions. Fundamentally very similar technology. More recent engines have to meet tighter specs for certain pollutants, which tends to reduce efficiency.

 

So despite the Fabia engine being a 1.4 litre its very much a similar engine to the 1.6 Felicia? 
What about DVLA re tax, as Im in the UK?
Also what about insurers, would they look at the Fabia engine as just a newer version, meaning they wouldnt care, or will they look at it as significantly different and want loads more money out of me?

Over several years of record-keeping for virtually every tank of fuel used, my 1.4 16v Polo averages 42mpg (majority of use 5-mile each way commutes). The 1.2 12v Fabia my partner drives does 41mpg  on much more varied work/journeys. Downsizing only works on EU type-testing lab-based emissions cycles, I reckon.

 

No idea about DVLA/insurers, sorry. Except that modified vehicles tend to be expensive to insure compared with unmodified.

Edited 18 July, 20205 yr by Wino

You can get insurance companies who specialise in modified vehicles and they base prices on the fact that as you go to so much effort to undertake certain mods, you are more likely to look after the vehicle and drive it safely. The DVLA will most likely look at any changes and seek some sort of proof from say VOSA or something and then charge you what was the higher of the two taxable classes.

 

That said, I remember some years ago, a motorcycle magazine claiming that you could buy a certain old British bike that was now zero tax rated and in time, change the frame, the wheel, the engine etc for much newer gear, due to modular design or ease of transfer of bits, etc and eventually end up with a new(ish) bike, with modern engine, no oil leaks better handling, faster, still registered as a classic.

 

I have an inkling though, that on older cars classed as classics, there should not be significant changes made, in order to keep the classic status. Rebuild, renovate etc but you can't just change the whole car. I guess the bit by bit approach though, may go unseen, once the engine has been recorded.

4 minutes ago, mrgf said:

You can get insurance companies who specialise in modified vehicles and they base prices on the fact that as you go to so much effort to undertake certain mods, you are more likely to look after the vehicle and drive it safely. The DVLA will most likely look at any changes and seek some sort of proof from say VOSA or something and then charge you what was the higher of the two taxable classes.

 

That said, I remember some years ago, a motorcycle magazine claiming that you could buy a certain old British bike that was now zero tax rated and in time, change the frame, the wheel, the engine etc for much newer gear, due to modular design or ease of transfer of bits, etc and eventually end up with a new(ish) bike, with modern engine, no oil leaks better handling, faster, still registered as a classic.

 

I have an inkling though, that on older cars classed as classics, there should not be significant changes made, in order to keep the classic status. Rebuild, renovate etc but you can't just change the whole car. I guess the bit by bit approach though, may go unseen, once the engine has been recorded.

So the DVLA would still want to charge the higher of the two pre 2001 tax rates even if I put a smaller engine in?

I would think so. They would keep it the same if you lowered the size but add the higher rate if you fitted a bigger lump. Of course, there is always the option of not saying anything but it carries certain risks.

Perhaps the best option is to contact them direct, prior to starting any work. 

3 hours ago, mrgf said:

I would think so. They would keep it the same if you lowered the size but add the higher rate if you fitted a bigger lump. Of course, there is always the option of not saying anything but it carries certain risks.

Perhaps the best option is to contact them direct, prior to starting any work. 

Wow thats mad, OK I will have to enquire of the DVLA first Adding a newer engine would do one thing for me at least, I would find it easier to get parts in years to come. 
Changing the mechanics of the vehicle to newer, eg engine, gear box, wheels, brakes axles, cat, wheel hubs, steering rack would make life easier in years to come in keeping the car going. If I keep it to Skoda and particularly Fabia then its just an upgrade really. Well it feels that way. However the look of the overall car would be of a Felicia still.  

Edited 19 July, 20205 yr by lotrjw

...Sounds like a plan and an interesting thing to do. Hope you get it all done successfully

2 minutes ago, mrgf said:

...Sounds like a plan and an interesting thing to do. Hope you get it all done successfully

It wont happen all at once, bit by bit over a few years I think.

On 18/07/2020 at 21:33, lotrjw said:

Is it even possible? If so are engine mounts similar enough?

 

There's thread on this forum about fitting 1.4 16V engine from Polo 6n. It can be fitted to Felicia gearbox using 1.6 mounts, only driver's side engine mount has to be fabricated and newer engines with crankshaft sensor might need some modifications on gearbox adaptor plate.

 

Fabia engine has same block as later Polo 6n2/Lupo engines (engine code AUA/BBY for 55kW), but different gearbox pattern, because of different gearbox. That might complicate things.

3 hours ago, Papez said:

 

There's thread on this forum about fitting 1.4 16V engine from Polo 6n. It can be fitted to Felicia gearbox using 1.6 mounts, only driver's side engine mount has to be fabricated and newer engines with crankshaft sensor might need some modifications on gearbox adaptor plate.

 

Fabia engine has same block as later Polo 6n2/Lupo engines (engine code AUA/BBY for 55kW), but different gearbox pattern, because of different gearbox. That might complicate things.

 

So a Polo 6n is more compatible than a Fabia which should naturally be the logical upgrade?

18 minutes ago, lotrjw said:

 

So a Polo 6n is more compatible than a Fabia which should naturally be the logical upgrade?

 

Yes, because its adaptor plates were made for engines used in Polo (and other small models) with 085 gearbox. Lupo was last VW with that gearbox.

 

Fabia and other newer models used stronger gearbox, which required different pattern. Here's picture, which compares AEE from Felicia and Octavia - Fabia 1.4 has similar pattern to Octavia.

 

6 hours ago, Papez said:

 

Yes, because its adaptor plates were made for engines used in Polo (and other small models) with 085 gearbox. Lupo was last VW with that gearbox.

 

Fabia and other newer models used stronger gearbox, which required different pattern. Here's picture, which compares AEE from Felicia and Octavia - Fabia 1.4 has similar pattern to Octavia.

 

I see so if I was to do the engine and gearbox at the same time it might work going to a Fabia then? Or even Octavia? I suppose I could even turn it into an automatic If I wanted?

28 minutes ago, lotrjw said:

I see so if I was to do the engine and gearbox at the same time it might work going to a Fabia then? Or even Octavia? I suppose I could even turn it into an automatic If I wanted?

It is possible, but it requires modification of chassis rails, modification of driveshafts and other problems - amount of work required is shown in 1.8 transplant threads - it's not worth it, if you want to uprade just to 1.4 engine.

On 18/07/2020 at 21:33, lotrjw said:

Im looking at the idea of putting a Fabia gen 2 1.4 litre 16v engine...

I dont particularly want better power, but a newer more economical more environmentally friendly engine

 

Just to be clear, which engine type do you want? I'm asking, because AUA/BBY engines found in Polo/Lupo were already Euro 4, just like Fabia until MY2010.

4 hours ago, Papez said:

 

Just to be clear, which engine type do you want? I'm asking, because AUA/BBY engines found in Polo/Lupo were already Euro 4, just like Fabia until MY2010.

Euro 4 engine is fine I could take it to all the clean zones in the UK on that. Are Polo/Lupo parts reasonable cost and easy to source? If so It might be worth it. 

Are the engine mounts similar enough?

This topic covers conversion to AFH and AVY engines. AUA should be similar to AVY, but it has alloy engine block, so you might bump into some new issues. I'm not sure if such conversion was ever attempted, because AFH is more straightforward and more reliable option.

 

I cannot help with availability, since I don't live in the UK  But they were quite common in 6N2 polos, Lupos, Arosa and 6k2 Ibiza/Cordoba after 2000 as replacement for AEE.

 

There's one more option for EU4 engine - Fabia had EU4 variant of Skoda OHV engine between 2001-2003, with Skoda gearbox, but changes were so extensive, that I think that VW engine is easier conversion...

Edited 23 July, 20205 yr by Papez

12 minutes ago, Papez said:

This topic covers conversion to AFH and AVY engines. AUA should be similar to AVY, but it has alloy engine block, so you might bump into some new issues. I'm not sure if such conversion was ever attempted, because AFH is more straightforward and more reliable option.

 

I cannot help with availability, since I don't live in the UK  But they were quite common in 6N2 polos, Lupos, Arosa and 6k2 Ibiza/Cordoba after 2000 as replacement for AEE.

 

There's one more option for EU4 engine - Fabia had EU4 variant of Skoda OHV engine between 2001-2003, with Skoda gearbox, but changes were so extensive, that I think that VW engine is easier conversion...

Thanks, perhaps someone from the UK would know about availability and pricing of the Polo/Lupo parts in comparison to Skoda.