Remapped and now turbo has gone

[newbie69]

10 hours ago, UndertheRadar said:

If that’s what you go with, will littco not refurb your blown unit to drop costs even more? The 380X you mentioned is a modified is38 unit anyway. Ask the question and see if they clip them or not. 
 

Exactly my thoughts. Simplest (and cheapest) way to get going again (and with a better turbo) is first taking the car to your local specialist and have them do a thorough inspection. Assuming nothing else is damaged take the turbo off and ship to Littco for rebuild, you could turn it into a L380X for just a few hundred (i'd choose the Supercore upgrade option). After all, the VAG specialist that will carry the mechanical work is a different garage to the tuning department so I see no issues there.

Then get it back and on the car and decide from there if you leave/modify/remove the remap, there is nothing really tying you with the current tuner at that point, and you could just as well go to any other reputable tuner should you choose to.

Edited 20 November, 2020 by newbie69

[TheBinarySheep]

1 hour ago, newbie69 said:

Exactly my thoughts. Simplest (and cheapest) way to get going again (and with a better turbo) is first taking the car to your local specialist and have them do a thorough inspection. Assuming nothing else is damaged take the turbo off and ship to Littco for rebuild, you could turn it into a L380X for just a few hundred (i'd choose the Supercore upgrade option). After all, the VAG specialist that will carry the mechanical work is a different garage to the tuning department so I see no issues there.

Then get it back and on the car and decide from there if you leave/modify/remove the remap, there is nothing really tying you with the current tuner at that point, and you could just as well go to any other reputable tuner should you choose to.

I've been to the specialist this morning.

He's going to ring me on Tuesday next week and let me know when someone will collect the car (probably towards the end of next week). He's agreed first steps are to check the engine over and take it from there.

 

I passed on some of the conflicting information I've been getting about Littco. He's told me he's worked with Dan for 2 years now and has installed roughly 12 of his turbos without issue.

I've lost a lot of sleep over the last couples of nights, and last night, I woke up and had this gut feeling that I wanted the car to go back to the original specialist because I want the car close to me. I don't want to send the car to a specialist 30 mile away where they can fob me off and ignore my calls, and be someone I've never met or spoke to. With the original specialist, he's round the corner so it's a 5 minute walk to physically go and speak to someone. While I have questions about the remap, maybe it's fine, maybe it's not, I don't know, I am confident that the specialist is perfectly capable of fixing the turbo. He's also suggested getting the car on the rolling road again at the end for comparison. The guy himself, while I've only spoken to him a few times, seems a nice guy, and while I have absolutely no idea whether or not the bad stories I'm hearing are true, I'm not inclined to believe everything the other tuner has been telling simply because there things they are saying that don't add up. Also, their remap prices are a fair chunk more than the tuner I went to, so maybe they're miffed about that are trying to damage his reputation. At the minute, I have no reason publicly slag off the specialist as I simply have no evidence at all that they've done anything wrong. It would be very easy to go public, name names when there could be absolutely nothing wrong with the map he's put on and it was simply down to an imbalanced turbo or something.

In the meantime, I'm going to try and do some research and get an understanding of the maps on these cars, and once the car is fixed, and I'm to ask if he can take me though some of the key aspects of the map just so I can come away with some confidence. So if anyone knows someone, or knows about remaps themselves that can tell me what I'm looking for then that would be great. Essentially, what parts of the map would cause the turbo to fail, is it boost pressure, exhaust temps etc, and if I can see the car on the rolling road and I can see that certain parameters are within certain limits, then it'll give me some confidence at least. There's also things like overspool protection and thermal limits, what should those be set at so I can get him to confirm that those limits are not being exceeded. I'm not daft, I'm a software dev/engineer, so I shouldn't have an issue building up a decent understanding of ECU tuning so that I can ask the tuner the right questions.

Edited 20 November, 2020 by TheBinarySheep

[shyVRS245]

I would ring Ben at AmD in Essex. I know they are not 5 minutes walk from you but I have made the 130+ mile journey each way several times and trust the guy with all my cars and I've never had a single issue. Explain your situation and he will help enlighten you.

[newbie69]

24 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

I've been to the specialist this morning.

He's going to ring me on Tuesday next week and let me know when someone will collect the car (probably towards the end of next week). He's agreed first steps are to check the engine over and take it from there.

 

I passed on some of the conflicting information I've been getting about Littco. He's told me he's worked with Dan for 2 years now and has installed roughly 12 of his turbos without issue.

I've lost a lot of sleep over the last couples of nights, and last night, I woke up and had this gut feeling that I wanted the car to go back to the original specialist because I want the car close to me. I don't want to send the car to a specialist 30 mile away where they can fob me off and ignore my calls, and be someone I've never met or spoke to. With the original specialist, he's round the corner so it's a 5 minute walk to physically go and speak to someone. While I have questions about the remap, maybe it's fine, maybe it's not, I don't know, I am confident that the specialist is perfectly capable of fixing the turbo. He's also suggested getting the car on the rolling road again at the end for comparison. The guy himself, while I've only spoken to him a few times, seems a nice guy, and while I have absolutely no idea whether or not the bad stories I'm hearing are true, I'm not inclined to believe everything the other tuner has been telling simply because there things they are saying that don't add up. Also, their remap prices are a fair chunk more than the tuner I went to, so maybe they're miffed about that are trying to damage his reputation. At the minute, I have no reason publicly slag off the specialist as I simply have no evidence at all that they've done anything wrong. It would be very easy to go public, name names when there could be absolutely nothing wrong with the map he's put on and it was simply down to an imbalanced turbo or something.

In the meantime, I'm going to try and do some research and get an understanding of the maps on these cars, and once the car is fixed, and I'm to ask if he can take me though some of the key aspects of the map just so I can come away with some confidence. So if anyone knows someone, or knows about remaps themselves that can tell me what I'm looking for then that would be great. Essentially, what parts of the map would cause the turbo to fail, is it boost pressure, exhaust temps etc, and if I can see the car on the rolling road and I can see that certain parameters are within certain limits, then it'll give me some confidence at least. There's also things like overspool protection and thermal limits, what should those be set at so I can get him to confirm that those limits are not being exceeded. I'm not daft, I'm a software dev/engineer, so I shouldn't have an issue building up a decent understanding of ECU tuning so that I can ask the tuner the right questions.

Sounds like a plan to me, first things first, then the rest. For now you want to a) have the engine inspected and b) fix the turbo with a known rebuilder and get it back on the car. I agree on the fact being close to them and able to stop by at any point is reassuring. It's not easy to part with the car by sending it some hundred miles away for an unknown period to someone you haven't worked with before.

Once that is done, the map will still be on the car and I doubt it could cause a reinforced turbo to fail anyway even if it's not the best map out there. But you can easily switch tuner, certainly not the first to do this even if you don't go for a higher map like stage 2 etc. Worry about that later though once the car is rolling again.

For the last bit though it is more complicated than you describe and in the end it you might not get much out of it despite having spent significant amount of your time. I don't think any tuner will just present all the values and parameters in their map to any customer simply for the reason of being evaluated on it. On top of that, modern engine management is much more complicated than say a predefined map of mixtures depending on rpm and load, you'd be amazed at how many parameters come into play. You can certainly educate yourself about the overall concept of AFRs, boost and temp management etc. if you like but don't expect to become an expert and able to read out and evaluate a map just like that.

In the end, it is not a task or responsibility you should be taking yourself, this is why you pay specialists to do their job. If the current tuner does not inspire confidence after all this switch to a well known and recommended one even if you have to drive a few hours to them (I've done this every time to get to the best tuner I could get for all of my cars).
I know it might not look great right now but I'm sure it will work out in the end, not worth losing any more sleep over it really. 

[TheBinarySheep]

14 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

Sounds like a plan to me, first things first, then the rest. For now you want to a) have the engine inspected and b) fix the turbo with a known rebuilder and get it back on the car. I agree on the fact being close to them and able to stop by at any point is reassuring. It's not easy to part with the car by sending it some hundred miles away for an unknown period to someone you haven't worked with before.

Once that is done, the map will still be on the car and I doubt it could cause a reinforced turbo to fail anyway even if it's not the best map out there. But you can easily switch tuner, certainly not the first to do this even if you don't go for a higher map like stage 2 etc. Worry about that later though once the car is rolling again.

For the last bit though it is more complicated than you describe and in the end it you might not get much out of it despite having spent significant amount of your time. I don't think any tuner will just present all the values and parameters in their map to any customer simply for the reason of being evaluated on it. On top of that, modern engine management is much more complicated than say a predefined map of mixtures depending on rpm and load, you'd be amazed at how many parameters come into play. You can certainly educate yourself about the overall concept of AFRs, boost and temp management etc. if you like but don't expect to become an expert and able to read out and evaluate a map just like that.

In the end, it is not a task or responsibility you should be taking yourself, this is why you pay specialists to do their job. If the current tuner does not inspire confidence after all this switch to a well known and recommended one even if you have to drive a few hours to them (I've done this every time to get to the best tuner I could get for all of my cars).
I know it might not look great right now but I'm sure it will work out in the end, not worth losing any more sleep over it really. 

It's not my job I agree, but it would be good to know for example, that on a stage 1 tune you shouldn't be exceeding 1.6 bar boost, or exhaust temps shouldn't be over xxx. Then I ask the tuner if he can run the car on the dyno and show me that those levels are not being exceeded. At the minute, the information I've gathered so far indicates that boost pressure and exhaust temps are two of the main causes of a turbo to fail after a remap, so if I can get some re-assurance that output values are within certain limits, I'll be happier.

I could take the car to another tuner for advice, but I know they'll pick faults all over with the map even if there isn't anything wrong with it.

[newbie69]

3 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

It's not my job I agree, but it would be good to know for example, that on a stage 1 tune you shouldn't be exceeding 1.6 bar boost, or exhaust temps shouldn't be over xxx. Then I ask the tuner if he can run the car on the dyno and show me that those levels are not being exceeded. At the minute, the information I've gathered so far indicates that boost pressure and exhaust temps are two of the main causes of a turbo to fail after a remap, so if I can get some re-assurance that output values are within certain limits, I'll be happier.

I could take the car to another tuner for advice, but I know they'll pick faults all over with the map even if there isn't anything wrong with it.

You don't even need the dyno for that, you could log boost, ignition timing, afr, egt temp on the road (which is actually the most accurate way to monitor these things) by doing a complete 3rd/4th gear pull. Then you could share the values for discussion but unless you've had acquired some solid knowledge or spoke to a real expert you could be hearing all sorts of opinions again.

No point in asking a tuner's opinion about another's remap. if you switched, you'd do it because it would be someone whose maps, according to your investigation, can be trusted "blindly" and call it a day, no point in digging deeper, spending your precious time and worrying about it all the time.
And since I am getting the feeling that doubt has got in your head about the original tuner, your best course of action would be to get the car back and have it remapped by a better trusted expert (there's currently sales on a few well known ones...)  Maybe it's not needed, but you'll be sleeping more peacefully.


 

[pompom]

i always have plan in my mind  since day 1 when i tuned my superb, if my turbo blows I will go straght to stage 3 with TT V5 with a differnet tuner. happy ending

Edited 20 November, 2020 by pompom

[UndertheRadar]

Does whoever mapped it not offer a money back guarantee within a certain time frame if your not happy?

If so, get it fixed, revert it back to standard map and pick another tuner as already stated above. Also, as stated, one of the bigger names that’s very well trusted has 20% off at the minute. 

[Gaz]

Reading with interest, and just wanted to say hang on in there TBS.  It'll come good.

 

I had a turbo (IS20) let go in my vRS back in 2018, so empathise with where you are now.  My vRS (Octy 3 TSI 220) had a Revo stage 1 map,  which of course meant the final bill (or much of it) was passed on to me.  Bottom end was stripped down as there was swarf in the sump, and the oil pump was changed as a precautionary measure, but the engine (EA888) survived unharmed.  The map wasn't the issue on mine as it turned out to be the coolant check valve.  I was very suspicious of the turbo letting go as the issue had been a delay of heating to the cabin, and the turbo let go within two miles of the Skoda main dealer who'd worked on it only 30 minutes beforehand - I didn't make it home.

 

Anyway, good luck for a better outcome and getting yours sorted out.

 

Gaz

[TheBinarySheep]

26 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

Does whoever mapped it not offer a money back guarantee within a certain time frame if your not happy?

If so, get it fixed, revert it back to standard map and pick another tuner as already stated above. Also, as stated, one of the bigger names that’s very well trusted has 20% off at the minute. 

Yes, I've seen the discount, problem is, I'm being by the dealer that they won't map with a Littco turbo installed. Unless they meant they won't do stage 2 remap with Littco.

[TheBinarySheep]

5 minutes ago, Gaz_ said:

Reading with interest, and just wanted to say hang on in there TBS.  It'll come good.

 

I had a turbo (IS20) let go in my vRS back in 2018, so empathise with where you are now.  My vRS (Octy 3 TSI 220) had a Revo stage 1 map,  which of course meant the final bill (or much of it) was passed on to me.  Bottom end was stripped down as there was swarf in the sump, and the oil pump was changed as a precautionary measure, but the engine (EA888) survived unharmed.  The map wasn't the issue on mine as it turned out to be the coolant check valve.  I was very suspicious of the turbo letting go as the issue had been a delay of heating to the cabin, and the turbo let go within two miles of the Skoda main dealer who'd worked on it only 30 minutes beforehand - I didn't make it home.

 

Anyway, good luck for a better outcome and getting yours sorted out.

 

Gaz

Hmm, the coolant check valve? How do you know the same issue won't happen again?

Out of interest (and if you don't mind me asking), as a ballpark, how much did it cost you to get back on the road?

[Gaz]

5 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Hmm, the coolant check valve? How do you know the same issue won't happen again?

Out of interest (and if you don't mind me asking), as a ballpark, how much did it cost you to get back on the road?

 

There'd be no way of knowing whether, or when, it might go again.  Just one of those things.

 

Skoda had been replacing various units on the car (Heating Control Unit, Temperature Control Unit and others I forget) in an effort to fix the original fault.  By the time I got the car back, almost a month later, they'd spent 30+ hours on it.  The cost they passed on to me was £3,000.  IIRC, the Coolant Check Valve was a c.£600 item.

 

Gaz

 

Edited 20 November, 2020 by Gaz_

[UndertheRadar]

1 hour ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Yes, I've seen the discount, problem is, I'm being by the dealer that they won't map with a Littco turbo installed. Unless they meant they won't do stage 2 remap with Littco.

Did they give a reason as to why their map might not be suitable with that particular unit. If as some do it’s vanes are adjusted for angle to give boost higher up, then it creates an increased lag response lower down. That may cause issues with boost control, fueling, intake etc and he may not want or be able to custom adjust the mapping to suit. 
It matters not anyway. Get it fixed and running and then go from there. It’ll give you many more years and happy miles once sorted. 
You also need to look on the bright side, If you’d bought a Q7, you’d be on about your 4th engine by now 🤣. 

[TheBinarySheep]

11 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

Did they give a reason as to why their map might not be suitable with that particular unit. If as some do it’s vanes are adjusted for angle to give boost higher up, then it creates an increased lag response lower down. That may cause issues with boost control, fueling, intake etc and he may not want or be able to custom adjust the mapping to suit. 
It matters not anyway. Get it fixed and running and then go from there. It’ll give you many more years and happy miles once sorted. 
You also need to look on the bright side, If you’d bought a Q7, you’d be on about your 4th engine by now 🤣. 

This particular dealer was dead set against any reconditioned turbo whatsoever, not just Littco, the dealer was against TTE as well. Said they'd only do a stage 2 map on an OEM turbo. Maybe it's because they're using a standard REVO map and don't want to adjust it.

You are correct, I believe the Littco L38-X has it's vanes clipped to produce more boost and does introduce some lag lower down. Something I'll need to consider as I'm not a fan on having too much lag, but I'm assuming it won't be too much.

[Nick_H]

6 hours ago, TheBinarySheep said:

This particular dealer was dead set against any reconditioned turbo whatsoever, not just Littco, the dealer was against TTE as well. Said they'd only do a stage 2 map on an OEM turbo. Maybe it's because they're using a standard REVO map and don't want to adjust it.

You are correct, I believe the Littco L38-X has it's vanes clipped to produce more boost and does introduce some lag lower down. Something I'll need to consider as I'm not a fan on having too much lag, but I'm assuming it won't be too much.

 

How's it going over on Pistonheads ? Have they offered any different advice ?

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1901303&i=0

Edited 20 November, 2020 by Nick_H

[newbie69]

13 hours ago, Nick_H said:

 

How's it going over on Pistonheads ? Have they offered any different advice ?

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1901303&i=0

Christ, I just went through that thread quickly, full of the typical "internet expert's BS" and why generic forums are not the place you want to be discussing car specific issues as they attract every ignorant to post their crap like you know what attracts flies...

 Apart from a few ones stating "it's just the turbo, replace it/repait it and move on" there's all sorts of unhlepful non-sense ranging from: "you should have researched more", "you should have bought a faster car", "I would never have tuned my car", "what does your wife think now" and even one very knowledgeable comment indeed saying "well you see it doesn't have the Golf R engine!"  (this guy never seen/heard of the dozen's blown IS38's on Golf R's...  )

Another, clearly unaware of the OEM turbo issues, suggested buying an OEM turbo and then getting a Racingline map as if that would provide any extra security really, funnily only a few posts below a guy with a Cupra 280 reporting that he blew his OEM IS38 without being tuned, and that the replacement OEM turbo blew also, after just 2 miles it went on the car...  

Some solid advice from people really into this platform/engine.

Edited 21 November, 2020 by newbie69

[Nick_H]

1 hour ago, newbie69 said:

Christ, I just went through that thread quickly, full of the typical "internet expert's BS" and why generic forums are not the place you want to be discussing car specific issues as they attract every ignorant to post their crap like you know what attracts flies...

 Apart from a few ones stating "it's just the turbo, replace it/repait it and move on" there's all sorts of unhlepful non-sense ranging from: "you should have researched more", "you should have bought a faster car", "I would never have tuned my car", "what does your wife think now" and even one very knowledgeable comment indeed saying "well you see it doesn't have the Golf R engine!"  (this guy never seen/heard of the dozen's blown IS38's on Golf R's...  )

Another, clearly unaware of the OEM turbo issues, suggested buying an OEM turbo and then getting a Racingline map as if that would provide any extra security really, funnily only a few posts below a guy with a Cupra 280 reporting that he blew his OEM IS38 without being tuned, and that the replacement OEM turbo blew also, after just 2 miles it went on the car...  

Some solid advice from people really into this platform/engine.

 

Thought you would find that thread entertaining ! I used to mod on there some years ago but hardly look at it now. Toxic place...

[TheBinarySheep]

After loads of research on Littco turbo's, I'm no longer worried. I can't find anything negative only (even though one tuner said I would), and even Celtic Tuning have been posting about tuning them to between 1.85 and 2.0 bar.

It does seem like the OEM turbo is a bit of a lottery, with issues from bearing journals, some not being as balanced as others and oil starvation (seen this a couple of times). If anyone is considering a remap on the OEM turbo, I have seen it suggested that you should get the turbo balanced before hand to be on the safe side. 

Edited 21 November, 2020 by TheBinarySheep

[TheBinarySheep]

Does anyone know. If I have the specialist return the ECU back to stock, and I take the car to Skoda, will they be able to detect the map? 

 

ive done some research, and there mention of a TD1 flag, but apparently this is only done if you take your car to the dealer with a map on it? So if it's stock, I guess all they'll see is a write count?

Edited 22 November, 2020 by TheBinarySheep

[Ootohere]

If you want to commit what is in effect insurance fraud then fill your boots.  Best not then have it on a public forum where any Loss adjuster or just anyone can read it.

There are people at Skoda UK that are car enthusiasts even though that is hard to beleive.

[newbie69]

10 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Does anyone know. If I have the specialist return the ECU back to stock, and I take the car to Skoda, will they be able to detect the map? 

 

ive done some research, and there mention of a TD1 flag, but apparently this is only done if you take your car to the dealer with a map on it? So if it's stock, I guess all they'll see is a write count?

Flashing back to stock removes the map but does not reset the flash counter. For any repair needed to be covered by VAG a full ECU readout is requested before authorizing the work and there the counter will show up as something different to 0 and the warranty will be rejected. The only exception would be if somehow the dealership agreed to cover the cost themselves (instead of VAG/Skoda) and they decided to overlook the counter (can't think why)

You bought the car used though so you wouldn't know if the previous owner had it mapped would you? You could try and worse case you'd just get the work rejected but it's a waste if time imo.

[TheBinarySheep]

2 minutes ago, newbie69 said:

Flashing back to stock removes the map but does not reset the flash counter. For any repair needed to be covered by VAG a full ECU readout is requested before authorizing the work and there the counter will show up as something different to 0 and the warranty will be rejected. The only exception would be if somehow the dealership agreed to cover the cost themselves (instead of VAG/Skoda) and they decided to overlook the counter (can't think why)

You bought the car used though so you wouldn't know if the previous owner had it mapped would you? You could try and worse case you'd just get the work rejected but it's a waste if time imo.

Thanks, as I expected. I've got people telling me to take it back to Skoda, and I'm trying to explain to them that I can't, they'll know about the map, but it doesn't matter what I say, I'm being told I'm wrong.

[Ootohere]

You know you void a manufacturers warranty when you do a remap and that is the risk you take if anything goes wrong.

There are those with leased cars including members here that got away with a warranty claim when the turbo went.

 

The thing is if you put the car in and the work is approved at the VW Groups expense (Their finance / warranty arms.) and then they discover that it was a fraudulent claim then your are liable for all the costs.

There are loss adjusters that check Social Media / forum posts, and they can check with an Insurance Company to see if the claimant on a warranty had declared modifications.

This is not a internet myth, it happens.

[Gaz]

30 minutes ago, TheBinarySheep said:

ive done some research, and there mention of a TD1 flag, but apparently this is only done if you take your car to the dealer with a map on it? So if it's stock, I guess all they'll see is a write count?

 

Mine went to Skoda with the map on it.  When authorising repairs, Skoda UK advised of the TD1 marker and I confirmed it had been mapped.  No sense in not being open about it IMO.

 

Gaz

[newbie69]

1 hour ago, TheBinarySheep said:

Thanks, as I expected. I've got people telling me to take it back to Skoda, and I'm trying to explain to them that I can't, they'll know about the map, but it doesn't matter what I say, I'm being told I'm wrong.

Because people don't know what they are talking about as usual. Maybe at some point back in time removing the map could fool the dealership but not any more in with the modern ECUs and diagnostics systems, at least in this particular platform where this has been discussed and proved many times before. Suggesting removing the map would make it non detectable is somewhat equivalent to suggesting you can drop your mileage if driving in reverse...

 

 

1 hour ago, Gaz_ said:

 

Mine went to Skoda with the map on it.  When authorising repairs, Skoda UK advised of the TD1 marker and I confirmed it had been mapped.  No sense in not being open about it IMO.

 

Gaz

I mean it's not as if you'd have much to argue on anyway. Once a remap takes place the counter is going to always show it took place so...