I am considering replacing my much-loved 2013 4x4 SE estate (owned from new) with a new model Octavia but I am not greatly enthusiastic having to get a VRS - too boy-racer for me, I'm afraid. Does anyone know whether they will be doing a 4x4 estate in SE or SEL trim?

 

There are other aspects of the VRS which I am not enthusiastic about as well - I think that 205 width tyres are the optimum width for the car to be properly entertaining - wider tyres will reduce the communication through the steering and increase the lean in corners. It will also reduce the ability to control the car by applying power in corners. One of the things I love about my current model is the sheer feel and controllability of it, and wider tyres can only reduce this in my view.

 

Also with wider tyres there is not enough space in the well under the boot floor for a full size wheel and tyre which is a bonus of the 205 width tyres.

 

There are other reasons as well, but it boils down to the SE or SEL being the sweet spot in specs for me. Anyone know anything about this?

You can buy VRS and sell the standard rims and tires. And buy 205/55/17 ones. This tire and rim size is in the homologation list. At least here in Slovenia.

And I can't agree about the lean in the corners. A wider tire means also the tire is lower which means it has lower sidewals and thus less lean in corners. It also provides more grip and faster responses in changing directions. Wider tires also mean more grip when accelerating on straights and out of the corners.

  

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by TheUltraRunner

@nickcoll  It might be an idea to say what country you are looking at getting the Mk4 Octavia with AWD in.

Sorry, yes, it's the UK.

 

Here's my personal take on the grip/lean issue: more grip will mean that the car doesn't start to move sideways across the road until a higher speed, which means that when it loses grip it will do so less progressively, and with less advance indication. That means that in general a wider tyre will be less "playful" than a narrower tyre.

 

Also because there is more grip before the car starts to move across the road there is more weight transfer in the body which will result in the car leaning more for the same suspension stiffness.

 

This can of course be countered by making the suspension stiffer but then the ride and compliance over bumpy surfaces deteriorates and so on. The lean is more about weight transfer in the body than it is about sidewall stiffness although it is also a factor.

 

I have personally always found that for a "non-sporty" car the 4x4 Octavia has excellent turn-in and front-end grip, and I have never had any instances of loss of grip either accelerating or on corners (other than when I have intentionally instigated it!) in any conditions apart from oil or diesel on the road.

 

If the car were only 2WD then the issues are obviously more complex because you are trying to do everything through only two tyres and there you will want as much grip as possible but 4WD is a different matter and the car can be more balanced when applying power in corners because you don't have the same conflict between accelerating (which induces loss of grip) and steering (for which you want maximum grip).

40 minutes ago, nickcoll said:

I am considering replacing my much-loved 2013 4x4 SE estate (owned from new) with a new model Octavia but I am not greatly enthusiastic having to get a VRS - too boy-racer for me, I'm afraid. Does anyone know whether they will be doing a 4x4 estate in SE or SEL trim?

 

There are other aspects of the VRS which I am not enthusiastic about as well - I think that 205 width tyres are the optimum width for the car to be properly entertaining - wider tyres will reduce the communication through the steering and increase the lean in corners. It will also reduce the ability to control the car by applying power in corners. One of the things I love about my current model is the sheer feel and controllability of it, and wider tyres can only reduce this in my view.

 

Also with wider tyres there is not enough space in the well under the boot floor for a full size wheel and tyre which is a bonus of the 205 width tyres.

 

There are other reasons as well, but it boils down to the SE or SEL being the sweet spot in specs for me. Anyone know anything about this?

 

With 4WD you don't need 225/45R18 tyres to power quickly out of corners. 205/55R17 will be more than enough grip.

 

The original Mazda MX5 only had 185/60R14 tyres. The reason being that Mazda felt the narrower tyres provided the driver with a more entertaining car.

 

In the 1980s, cars would often only have 155/80 tyres if they didn't have power steering. These narrow tyres would make the steering lighter at low speeds.

Yeah sorry, I didn't took into account 4x4 drivetrain.

About the stiffness, you still have the option to opt for the DCC.  

29 minutes ago, Carlston said:

 

With 4WD you don't need 225/45R18 tyres to power quickly out of corners. 205/55R17 will be more than enough grip.

 

My view entirely. And I think Mazda are right about narrower tyres on the MX-5 for the same reasons, although of course for the MX-5 it is possible because it is rear-wheel drive (and beautifully balanced from the ones I have driven).

 

Narrower tyres mean that you get much more feel from the steering at and around the limit. FWD (which I should have said rather than 2WD) is a rather different matter and a powerful FWD car is always a compromise that gets worse the more powerful it is - retaining feel as the power is increased is a big challenge and maybe that is why there is so much focus on acceleration nowadays rather than going round corners...

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by nickcoll

@nickcollYour experience and knowledge of your car and your thoughts on tyres and wheels are interesting, but really with the correct tyres for the cars use wider does not have to be inferior to narrower for grip.  Proper tread, proper compound and correct pressures and they can work in wet, dry, cold or snow, maybe just not good for every road or weather condition.

Really wider tyres / tread on the road surface do not make cars ditch finders.

In most cases wider tyres will have more grip, but less feel. That is my point, really. The car will also lean more if the tyres grip more, for the same speed around a corner and the same suspension stiffness.

 

Wider tyres will generally break away more suddenly than narrower tyres, because the amount of energy in the car is obviously greater at a higher cornering speed, so when the tyre loses grip the car will slide faster and more quickly. Most of that is obvious when you think about it!

 

Anyway, all of this is a bit of a distraction from the question I was asking, and maybe I shouldn't have complicated things by introducing my reasons alongside my question - any likelihood of a Mk 4 4x4 estate in SE or SEL trim appearing in the future in the UK?

Spoke to my dealer about the MK4 Octavia Scout.  Looks promising that Skoda will release that model in the middle of this year, so you may get close to a (high-end) standard spec Octavia.

@nickcoll   Sorry but i believe you are talking a loads of rowlocks. 

You are in the UK on UK roads and a 60 mph NSL.

 

No idea what Skoda UK plan for Model Trims in 2021 or the future as things are very much at a point where car sales are down.

They might want to do cars with petrol engines and haldex and narrow tyres in the attempt to get lower Average Co2 g/km as they are required to, 

but then they might not.

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

1 hour ago, varaderoguy said:

Spoke to my dealer about the MK4 Octavia Scout.  Looks promising that Skoda will release that model in the middle of this year, so you may get close to a (high-end) standard spec Octavia.

 

If previous years are anything to go by, I expect Skoda will fit bigger tyres to the MK4 Octavia Scout.

 

Perhaps 215/55R17 on 7Jx17 ET45 rims from the Karoq, even though 215/60R16 on 6Jx16 ET43 rims would be more comfortable and protect the rims better from kerbing damage.

 

Getting that wow factor in the showroom is more important for sales than functionality.

 

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by Carlston

2 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

@nickcoll   Sorry but i believe you are talking a loads of rowlocks. 

Rowlocks in what way exactly? I don't think it is rowlocks on a technical level, but if you are saying that you never drive your car at or near the limit then that is absolutely fine and I entirely respect that approach.

@nickcoll

I have driven to the limit with cars for 5 decades starting on rear wheel drive ones on narrow tyres, and then fwd, and all wheel drive and i have exceeded the limit and cars have improved and tyres have improved, and road surfaces have changed.

I still drive old cars, and i drive new ones.

If i want to feel on the limit i no longer do it on public roads, i drive to the speed limit and maybe a bit more (but 3 point off a ban that is not very often) and i get around corners on my side of the road, but i do not put a heavy car on 205 tyres just to get an entertaining drive from them.

I might drive a Fabia on 205's, or a new one as they come on 215's, but as for an Octavia that to me is just silly. 

My EV came on 205/45 R 17's, is FWD and the Michelin Primacy 4's are an absolute joke.  Nothing entertaining even on a light throttle having TC interfering.

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

1 hour ago, e-Roottoot said:

@nickcoll

...i do not put a heavy car on 205 tyres just to get an entertaining drive from them...

 

Scroll down to see a photo of a Jaguar XF that found a ditch today. 255 summer tyres don't have much grip in the winter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55660232

 

Edited 14 January, 20215 yr by Carlston

2 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

i do not put a heavy car on 205 tyres just to get an entertaining drive from them.

I might drive a Fabia on 205's, or a new one as they come on 215's, but as for an Octavia that to me is just silly. 

We'll have to agree to differ then. In my personal view 205s on a 4x4 Octavia are absolutely plenty - this modern obsession with ever-wider tyres has little to do with need and much to do with style.

 

I stress that this view does not apply to powerful FWD cars which obviously need as much grip as they can get because of the conflict between steering and getting the power down. But I stick to my view that steering feel is better on narrower tyres. We have a Scout (which is fitted with 225s) as well as my 4x4 and it has much less steering feel, and what is more it is widely recognised that wider tyres reduce steering feel (all other things being equal).

 

Just to check - you do know that the name of this board is BriSkoda, and why it is called that?  

1 hour ago, nickcoll said:

But I stick to my view that steering feel is better on narrower tyres. We have a Scout (which is fitted with 225s) as well as my 4x4 and it has much less steering feel, and what is more it is widely recognised that wider tyres reduce steering feel (all other things being equal).

 

 

I don't think it's just a matter of tyre width affecting steering feel.  I watched a Michelin video recently about how the tread profile on their CrossContact+ tyres is rounded to enhance steering feel.  Having run a set of them in 225/50x17 on my Yeti for the past year, I can only agree with them.  

 

The other thing that makes a difference is wheel offset.  I used to run my Mk5 Golf, on which the OEM 17" wheels were fitted with 225/45x17 tyres, on Audi A3, 16's with 215/55x16 winter tyres during the season.  I don't recall the figures but the ET on the Audi and VW wheels was different and it made for a different steering feel. 

@Carlston Summer tyres and winter conditions is a whole other subject so a Jag crashing has only to do with a Jag crashing,

You really have an obsession with smaller wheels and narrower tyres.

You should really tell us what you drive, where that is mostly and what tyres you have fitted.

 

My Shogun Van has on 265/65 R 18 CrossClimate SUV's rather than the standard width 285's. 

The width is not an issue and it is has been snowy, slushy and now that slush is ice.

 

For 18 Years i had Jimny Automatics which are RWD unless you select FWD as well, they come from the factory on rubbish Bridgstone Duelers in 205/70 R 15.

(The new Jimny's are on 195's)

The first thing you did was change for proper tyres if using offroad, maybe 195 or 205 with the tread that suited, if for road use then 215 tyres where best, or wheels to give a bit wider track with 205's.   It is a matter of horses for courses and narrower tyres certainly could be entertaining, and the wrong tyres on wet roads even more so.

 

Various widths from 205, 215, 225 to 235 on 15" or 16" rims. 

 Wide road or AT's tyres for grip on road as they do that better than narrower ones.

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

7 hours ago, Schtum said:

 

I don't think it's just a matter of tyre width affecting steering feel.  I watched a Michelin video recently about how the tread profile on their CrossContact+ tyres is rounded to enhance steering feel.  Having run a set of them in 225/50x17 on my Yeti for the past year, I can only agree with them.  

 

The other thing that makes a difference is wheel offset.  I used to run my Mk5 Golf, on which the OEM 17" wheels were fitted with 225/45x17 tyres, on Audi A3, 16's with 215/55x16 winter tyres during the season.  I don't recall the figures but the ET on the Audi and VW wheels was different and it made for a different steering feel. 

Definitely agree that there are many factors affecting steering feel. My observations about tyre width are with everything else being (roughly) the same. And definitely on-road rather than off-road which is a whole different ball game!

 

One other factor which I have played with a bit is toe-in. I have found that the car feels much more responsive and grippy at the front if the alignment is set close to parallel rather than toeing in. Parallel is within the recommended range for my model but at one end of it.

@nickcoll What tyres do you actually run on your Octavia & what others have you used

& when you experiment or just adjust the alignment do you ever try different tyre widths or compounds or season types on the car to see how the behaviour on the road is?

 

These are tyres from 205,215 and 225 tall on 17" x 7.5 rims that were tried and compared on the same or different cars, tyres with Speed & Load ratings appropriate to the vehicles being used on.

One big difference in the handling, feel, involvement  on the different tyres could come from adjusting the steering assist to suit the tyres & rims fitted & the season. Also adjusting tyre pressures.

There is a lot to be said for actually trying different tyres and set up on your favourite roads that you drive on and then making decisions or giving comparisons on what does what and where.

 

A 215 tyres with rim protection can be wider than a 205 with no rim protection, but there might be no more tread on the road with the 215.

Then there are XL on not XL sidewalls to take into account.

 

 

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

21 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

@nickcoll What tyres do you actually run on your Octavia & what others have you used

& when you experiment or just adjust the alignment do you ever try different tyre widths or compounds or season types on the car to see how the behaviour on the road is?

 

No, because you have to keep most things the same to get a true comparison of one variable. Also regarding the tyre width issue in isolation this is known behaviour and happens for the reasons I gave. Yes, there are many other variables that have an effect but I was only addressing one.

 

The second issue of alignment is one of the other factors, but offset, tyre compounds, pressures, and suspension stiffness definitely also have an impact.

 

Another factor is suspension design, and I hesitate to mention it because of what it might unleash in terms of an off-topic response, but the IRS on the 4x4 and more powerful FWD cars is definitely a big factor, and the beam rear axle is rubbish in comparison with the IRS for every aspect of suspension behaviour on Octavias. If I had only ever test-driven beam axle suspended cars I would probably not be driving an Octavia now.

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by nickcoll

It is interesting to see what tyres Skoda fit as OEM as it is expected of customers that appropriate tyres are fitted and the OEM fitment and the tyres they spec as OEM from manufacturers will suit the cars requirements.

It is a pity really that so many choices by Skoda CZ / VW Group do not suit UK roads and weather conditions and that Cars can arrive in the UK with some pretty poor choices or options.

I have no idea really what Octavia iV have as OEM globally or for the UK trims and drivetrains but i will keep watching to see just what they do as the cars become available in different trims.

 

Strangely with Owners of Skoda's or VW Group cars reporting 'Pulling to the left' in the UK night complain, the Dealership will mess about. never changimg the Alignment the car eft the factory with, and when the issue continues SKODA UK then allow changing the Dunlop or Continentals for Pirelli's with a stronger sidewall, 

and that disguises the issue.

That is fine but then when the owners goes somewhere that Alignment and run out stripes on tyres is understood the actual problem can easily be sorted.

 

Dealership Employees blame Dunlop or Continental, but i bet they do not put that in writing to Skoda, Dunlop or Continental CEO's.

Then Skoda / VW keep on fitting Dunlops and Continentals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

Mine came from new with Continental PremiumContact 2s and I have kept with the PremiumContacts although upgrading as each new generation came through. Grip has always been excellent but feel has varied - the 5s were in my view the best and the 6s I have now are fine grip-wise but aren't quite as precise in feel as the 5s were.

 

The other tyre I have fitted on a Golf and our Scout is the Goodyear EfficientGrip Performance which is also OK. But i have not fitted them on the SE 4x4 as I am very happy with the Contis. I will probably see if the PC5 is available next time I change the tyres.

My Seat Alhambra 2.0 TDI DSG came on Continental Premium 2 ContiSeal and they were changed as soon as the car was home. (I posted in the Tyre Section about them.)

They are the spawn of the devil.   The 215/65 R 16 size was perfect. the compound was not.

 

CrossClimates on for the Summer and Winters for 3 winters

 

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by e-Roottoot

24 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

It is interesting to see what tyres Skoda fit as OEM as it is expected of customers that appropriate tyres are fitted and the OEM fitment and the tyres they spec as OEM from manufacturers will suit the cars requirements.

It is a pity really that so many choices by Skoda CZ / VW Group do not suit UK roads and weather conditions and that Cars can arrive in the UK with some pretty poor choices or options.

I have no idea really what Octavia iV have as OEM globally or for the UK trims and drivetrains but i will keep watching to see just what they do as the cars become available in different trims.

 

Many of the new brochures (Dec 2020) for various models and specs now state low rolling resistance tyres (in the tables marked technical info towards end of brochure), although some are still tyre size without this qualifier

 

It appears Skoda UK are changing over to these (possibly some sizes not yet available).  These are basically eco summer tyres (they are harder), great for getting a marginally better mpg figure and slightly lower CO2 figure at +23c (the WLTP test temperature).   Unfortunately the mean temperature in UK is nowhere near +23c  

 

These eco summer (low rolling resistance as Skoda UK call them) are hard and poor in the wet below about +10c  (it is a lower temp in dry), and completely useless in cold rain, sleet, slush, snow etc.  So are unsuitable for all year use in UK, where many months of wet weather below +10c exist

 

Does @nickcoll need the 4wd system (and just look at the extra weight in the brochure, in those technical tables, its like adding a few bags of cement and carrying it around all year), or do you simply need different tyres to what Skoda UK will supply  (my recommendation for all year use is Goodyear Vector 4season Generation3 or Continental all season contact)

 

 

Edited 15 January, 20215 yr by SurreyJohn