9 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

I still believe N.A. engine s are pretty much for that crumby base model edition and it is more about the main base load of driving, delivering is done by turbo motors, thank God for the same of emissions etc.

 

but also that turbo motors will adapt to E10 better as their enhanced electronics, especially with the auto boxed versions will electronically compensate for the lower calorific value E10 fuel where manuals N.A. cars will left flayling for the lost hp.

 

Ahh, you mean crumby base models like this

https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/mustang/models-specs/v8-gt

 

Or maybe

 

https://www.continentalautosports.com/ferrari-812-superfast-engine-specs/

 

 

Actually my lowly htp I can pull away without any throttle, which I think is pretty good for a 1.2 three pot na engine idling at 850rpm.

 

 

43 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Ahh, you mean crumby base models like this

https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/mustang/models-specs/v8-gt

 

Or maybe

https://www.continentalautosports.com/ferrari-812-superfast-engine-specs/

 

Actually my lowly htp I can pull away without any throttle, which I think is pretty good for a 1.2 three pot na engine idling at 850rpm.

 

 

Ford have dropped the 2.3 Ecoboost engine ?  Heard they had some problems and had even dropped the HP to stop some of the failures.  Could have/should have used the T5 or new 2 litre turbo engine.

 

In the odd application NA still have a place, like motorcycles, 

 

The 812 is one of the most polluting cars left in production at over 350 gms/km, V8 Mustang around 300 gm/km.   

The road tax will be very high, not that the Ferrari owner is likely to be bothered but we should be in terms of environmental damage.

 

I bought a 1.2 HTP for one of the kids about 8 years ago as a low insurance runabout, it was the 60 hp model and we only traded it in a year ago but when I think of the road tax on that as the CO2 was over 120 gm/km, about a grand paid to HMG.  It was the lack of torque that annoyed me when driving it as it only had 5 gears as it would not pull a 6th gear I would have thought with only around 100 Nms of torques.

 

We have to reduce our CO2 output as a country and world and the UK Gov is trying to make those who pollute pay for polluting through the Road Tax Year 1 levy and on-going higher payments for.  Sadly said goodbye to the 2.5l Type S Jag as the road tax was getting silly.  Could get over 40 mpg on a run but we should be aiming for 60 mpg plus and if that has to be on E10 then so be it for the greater good.   I use eco on the Octy 3 DSG and it is amazing how much better it is, about another 25 miles per tankful and over 57 mpg and it goes back soon after a 4 year lease and something technical good to follow, EV hopefully, petrol-turbo hybrid at worst. 

 

Anybody seen any power-torque curves comparing pure tankfuls of E5 and E10 ?  Can always use an occasional tankful of E5 Momentum to offset I suppose.

I'd say there's still a lot of NA cars on the roads.

 

And although E10 has been available for years here, the uptake has been very slow here due to people's reluctance and uncertainty.

 

I've also had a few people I know say that their cars run like garbage on E10. But one of which was an Astra J 1.4 16v that I drove shortly after and it turned out the coil packs were bad. Lol.

 

The other being a Mini One 1.6 that apparently idled poorly and got really bad fuel economy. But all very subjective.

@lol-lol

Ford like all the others had to have the Average C02 to save them paying millions in penalties in the EU / UK. 

They were all too slow getting the Mild Hybrids / Plug ins that cheat the WLTP really or the EV's so 'engines must die'.   But Suzuki had already managed to have low emission engines as did PSA and a few others. 

Suzuki had the new Jimny with ridiculous emissions, especially with the Auto so they have gone the way of a Small Commercial with it, but can still havesome good sellers with just slightly higher emissions because they can get the average low across all vehicles registered.

 

Lots of kidology happening with companies buddying up so that the low emission car manufacturer can help the ones that are not yet there.

ie anyone wanting to partner with TESLA.

1 hour ago, Phil-E said:

I'd say there's still a lot of NA cars on the roads.

 

And although E10 has been available for years here, the uptake has been very slow here due to people's reluctance and uncertainty.

 

I've also had a few people I know say that their cars run like garbage on E10. But one of which was an Astra J 1.4 16v that I drove shortly after and it turned out the coil packs were bad. Lol.

 

The other being a Mini One 1.6 that apparently idled poorly and got really bad fuel economy. But all very subjective.

 

The idea of driving most natural aspirated cars, barring those specialist high revving or high capacity ones, on Germany Autobahns would either scare the willies trying to use the fast lane or confine me to the slow lane with the lorries and it is sounding that E10 will make things worse.

 

There are a mass of stories ie E10 is even worse in cooler weather, very bad if left static in a car left standing over weeks.  Appears a big deal if power is marginal in the first place.  

 

I do not think the EU have passed a law that you have to drive one of those there.  

 

Re Winter & E10.

At present the Winter Formulation Petrol unleaded and Super Unleaded is different from the Summer as ethanol is hygroscopic, so as the E5 and E10 has to have up to 5% & 10% Bio but need not have that as that is a max we will see what we see. 

Edited 10 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Can I just clarify about ethanol being hygroscopic. When you distil or purify ethanol from an aqueous solution, it is only possible to attain a maximum of 96% ethanol/4% water. If you require a higher purity/water content, the alcohol has to be distilled with benzene, which, as you are probably aware, is carcinogenic, to produce what is known as absolute alcohol. This will always contain traces of benzene. I find it very doubtful that absolute alcohol (which may be hygroscopic) is used in petrol, so it is likely that 96% is used. So any ethanol added to the fuel will most likely contain 4% of water, which will obviously not burn. As the remainder of the fuel, being mainly hydrocarbons, is immiscible with water there is a limit to the amount of water the fuel will be able to keep dissolved without separating. This is a potential issue, and I'm afraid by knowledge of physical chemistry doesn't extend to being able to consider whether this will occur. The fuel manufacturers will though. Just bear in mind that E10 will probably not absorb any water and will probably contain 4% of 10% = 0.4% water straight from the pump.

Until about 8 years ago Tesco PLC had the exact spec and ingredients of Tesco Momentum 99 published and showed what the difference was April to October & then October to March. I no longer have it on my computer and it was lost on the forum when there was a clean up a few years back.

I still have the Tesco test results they published where they were comparing Tesco 95 Unleaded against Tesco Momentum 99 and others.

 Royal Dutch Shell were the only others selling 99 octane then as the others were 97 octane.

'All about the emissions'. 

388380a097b04fe693a8c27db8bb4974 (1).pdf 6ca06d648b9541e78fa838fece4a1a23 (1).pdf

Edited 11 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

The files above are safe enough to open.

As to Confidential.  Not really as i have posted them loads as they were readily available.   I wonder why they disappeared off the net?

 

59 minutes ago, Routemaster1461 said:

Can I just clarify about ethanol being hygroscopic. When you distil or purify ethanol from an aqueous solution, it is only possible to attain a maximum of 96% ethanol/4% water. If you require a higher purity/water content, the alcohol has to be distilled with benzene, which, as you are probably aware, is carcinogenic, to produce what is known as absolute alcohol. This will always contain traces of benzene. I find it very doubtful that absolute alcohol (which may be hygroscopic) is used in petrol, so it is likely that 96% is used. So any ethanol added to the fuel will most likely contain 4% of water, which will obviously not burn. As the remainder of the fuel, being mainly hydrocarbons, is immiscible with water there is a limit to the amount of water the fuel will be able to keep dissolved without separating. This is a potential issue, and I'm afraid by knowledge of physical chemistry doesn't extend to being able to consider whether this will occur. The fuel manufacturers will though. Just bear in mind that E10 will probably not absorb any water and will probably contain 4% of 10% = 0.4% water straight from the pump.

EN 228 specifies that ethanol used in petrol must meet EN 15376 which has a limit of 0.3 % mass fraction of water in the ethanol. Benzene is permitted in petrol up to a volume fraction of 1 %, so a certain amount of residual benzene in ethanol could be ok, depending on the aromatics content of the base petrol used. These days there are also processes that can achieve very low water content in ethanol for motor fuel use without the need for extractive distillation, but it's too early in the morning for me to go reading up on them in detail

14 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I still believe N.A. engine s are pretty much for that crumby base model edition

I have a top spec version of a Toyota that has an NA engine - Toyota

The Regional differences with ESSO and 99 Octane Super Unleaded & ethanol is because Greenergy do not supply the Super Unleaded to ESSO stations for all of the UK.

Greenergy has fuel that is brought in as a base fuel with their partners Royal Dutch Shell and there are fuels that arrive 'Filling Station ready' to some depots.

The fuels and the butane purchased at the best prices can mean that the UK has winter formula petrol at filling station tanks after it has stopped being available on Continental Europe or North America / Canada.

 

Someplace i have that information from 2012 on how late into 2012 they were bringing winter grade fuel into the UK.

The link was posted on here back then.

EDIT.

Bottom of page.

 

 

The experts here will know more about the use of Butane in the winter formulations because of the different temps the fuels need to deal with, 

i have only seen what i have read about it and about the price on the markets and the importation to the UK.

 

 

 

Edited 11 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

3 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

I have a top spec version of a Toyota that has an NA engine - Toyota

 

The one that is made in the Czech Republic  ie the Kolin plant which Toyota have just bought out PSA half of on January 1st this year  ?

 

 You surely can appreciate the difference between your fabulous mark 3 Octavia, not sure if you have the fabulous 7 speed DSG or the 6 speed manual.

 

With the 1.4 TSI one has bags of torque (250 nm) from 1500 rpm, and I am sue to getting mid 50s mpg out of mine.

 

What is the Aygo, 93 Nm ?  

 

If there are two cars which highlight the difference for a non-turbo and turbo these are good examples.

 

And the road tax and emission ?   

 

Considering the Octy has nearly 4 times the boot space, can hold 5 in comfort, which is the better to drive anywhere except in a car park ?

 

We have to be particularly carefully about emission in towns and that means town cars should be EVs or ultra low emission considering the 40k deaths a year in the UK alone.

 

Not the Bideford and Barnstaple are too high on the danger list for this I would expect but even Worcester has its emission black spot roads.

21 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 You surely can appreciate the difference between your fabulous mark 3 Octavia, not sure if you have the fabulous 7 speed DSG or the 6 speed manual.

Given that the Octavia is now owned by my ex-wife the comparison between them is irrelevant for me.

 

The point I was making is that your statement

Quote

N.A. engine s are pretty much for that crumby base model edition

is incorrect - even the top models of some cars have NA engines.

Lexus - hardly crummy based models but as I understand it a large number of them use naturally aspirated engines and the Atkinson cycle?

 

And I'm not sure you can realistically compare an Aygo with an Octavia...   both come in base specs and high specs but are aimed at a different market sector...

 

Personally my Swift could hardly be called crummy given the level of tech within it exceeds a lot of much bigger, premium models...   but then again it does have a turbo...

Edited 11 August, 20214 yr by skomaz

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

If there are two cars which highlight the difference for a non-turbo and turbo these are good examples.

 

 

Not really - but they do potentially highlight the different between vehicles within different size sectors...

4 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Given that the Octavia is now owned by my ex-wife the comparison between them is irrelevant for me.

 

The point I was making is that your statement

is incorrect - even the top models of some cars have NA engines.

 

The top of the Range Aygo is well spec'd and has some good safety bits on it, still would rather have a Sandero TCE 0.9 and several thousands in the bank.

 

The Corsa is currently the best selling car in the UK and is available with a 75 hp NA engine and some turbo petrol and diesel 

 

 

Parker's neatly sum up my experience with these NA town cars.  

And as we try and keep to the thread it does sound like these types of cars are going to find it tougher with the lower calorific E10 fuel.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/car-buying/2019/which-vauxhall-corsa-is-right-for-me/

===========================================================================================================================================================

Which Corsa engine is right for me?

At launch, the Vauxhall Corsa is offered with a choice of four different powertrains. These are:

• 75hp 1.2-litre non-turbocharged petrol, paired to a five-speed manual gearbox
• 100hp 1.2-litre turbocharged petrol, paired to either a six-speed manual gearbox or an eight-speed automatic gearbox
• 102hp 1.5-litre diesel, paired to a six-speed manual gearbox
• 136hp electric motor with a single-speed automatic transmission

Which of these is best for you depends totally on the kind of driving you do. We’d recommend the 75hp 1.2-litre unit only for those who spend the vast majority of their time in towns and cities and rarely venture onto faster roads. Alternatively, it could be a good low-cost option for younger drivers looking to minimise their insurance costs.  Its power deficit means it’s not particularly relaxed on fast A-roads and motorways, and there’s little in reserve if you need to overtake. In addition, the five-speed gearbox leaves the engine revving loudly at high speeds.  We think the best petrol choice for most drivers is the 100hp unit. It’s still peppy around town but much more relaxed on the motorway, and the six-speed manual gearbox is useful for refinement. It’s also likely that this engine will return better real-world fuel economy, as it doesn’t need to be worked as hard as the 75hp model.

 =================================================================================================================================================================

19 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

The idea of driving most natural aspirated cars, barring those specialist high revving or high capacity ones, on Germany Autobahns would either scare the willies trying to use the fast lane or confine me to the slow lane with the lorries and it is sounding that E10 will make things worse.

 

There are a mass of stories ie E10 is even worse in cooler weather, very bad if left static in a car left standing over weeks.  Appears a big deal if power is marginal in the first place.  

 

I had a Daihatsu of some description as a hire car for a few days. It's was so terrible I can't even remember what model. Or was it even a Daihatsu... I've no idea now! Lol

 

It has some crappy little engine in it with horrible gears. Genuinely terrifying... Especially since where I had to join the Autobahn the first time is in an unrestricted section, long straight and very smooth... So the traffic tends to move fast!

3 hours ago, skomaz said:

Lexus - hardly crummy based models but as I understand it a large number of them use naturally aspirated engines and the Atkinson cycle?

 

And I'm not sure you can realistically compare an Aygo with an Octavia...   both come in base specs and high specs but are aimed at a different market sector...

 

Personally my Swift could hardly be called crummy given the level of tech within it exceeds a lot of much bigger, premium models...   but then again it does have a turbo...

 

You mean Lexus who have less than 1% of the UK market and have declined 15% since last year.  You may have spotted the reason for the failure !

 

Why are people not buying new cars I wonder ?  This year looks even worse than last and I thought we were all getting back to driving.  Is the chip shortage killing new sales that much  ?

 

JULY				% Change
MARQUE	2021	% Market share	2020		% Market share
Abarth	270	0.22	213	0.12	26.76
Alfa Romeo	114	0.09	185	0.11	-38.38
Alpine	9	0.01	10	0.01	-10.00
Audi	10,184	8.26	12,017	6.87	-15.25
Bentley	103	0.08	158	0.09	-34.81
BMW	7,863	6.38	11,446	6.54	-31.30
Citroen	1,858	1.51	3,330	1.90	-44.20
Cupra	593	0.48	0	0.00	0.00
Dacia	1,688	1.37	2,558	1.46	-34.01
DS	235	0.19	228	0.13	3.07
Fiat	1,613	1.31	1,949	1.11	-17.24
Ford	8,567	6.95	18,814	10.76	-54.46
Genesis	27	0.02	0	0.00	0.00
Honda	2,837	2.30	3,322	1.90	-14.60
Hyundai	5,959	4.83	5,425	3.10	9.84
Jaguar	1,288	1.04	2,746	1.57	-53.10
Jeep	517	0.42	555	0.32	-6.85
Kia	7,829	6.35	9,110	5.21	-14.06
Land Rover	3,240	2.63	5,730	3.28	-43.46
Lexus	1,114	0.90	1,309	0.75	-14.90

 

 

3 minutes ago, Phil-E said:

I had a Daihatsu of some description as a hire car for a few days. It's was so terrible I can't even remember what model. Or was it even a Daihatsu... I've no idea now! Lol

 

It has some crappy little engine in it with horrible gears. Genuinely terrifying... Especially since where I had to join the Autobahn the first time is in an unrestricted section, long straight and very smooth... So the traffic tends to move fast!

 

Not sure I would want to try and join an unrestricted part of the Autobahn with less than much 100 kWs. Usually travelling in a A6 or Golf.  

The manager in the Frankfurt office changed to Skoda K something and oh my God it did feel far less safe changing lanes at 200-220 kph.

 

Mind you this guy did quite well in a 66 kw mk 3 fabia same as one my cars, respect.

3:20 in on this wierd video.  Figure is on the speedo and not GPS but would have thought it is a good 190 kph.

Diesel, I presume, is still dinosaur juice rather than plant extract so not running in to these lowering of spec issues ?

 

 

 

Parts of the world could not care less about Climate Change or emissions as the EU / UK can do that for them.

Nissan, Renault, Suzuki and others will just make cars look good, if they drive like crap it apparently does not matter.

 

No turbo then no wukking furries, you are only using it as a taxi and who cares about safety features.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Not sure I would want to try and join an unrestricted part of the Autobahn with less than much 100 kWs. Usually travelling in a A6 or Golf.  

The manager in the Frankfurt office changed to Skoda K something and oh my God it did feel far less safe changing lanes at 200-220 kph.

 

Mind you this guy did quite well in a 66 kw mk 3 fabia same as one my cars, respect.

3:20 in on this wierd video.  Figure is on the speedo and not GPS but would have thought it is a good 190 kph.

Diesel, I presume, is still dinosaur juice rather than plant extract so not running in to these lowering of spec issues ?

 

 

 

I'd say it's more than just the pure book figure of of the KW output. I have zeros fears joing the Autobahn with "just" 90kw. Even when it's been fully loaded with 3 adults, a dog, a boot full and 3 bikes on the tow bar.

 

But then a decent 200nm of torque between 1500 and 4000 rpm and a DSG gearbox helps get effortlessly and safely up to speed.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

You mean Lexus who have less than 1% of the UK market and have declined 15% since last year.  You may have spotted the reason for the failure !

 

Why are people not buying new cars I wonder ?  This year looks even worse than last and I thought we were all getting back to driving.  Is the chip shortage killing new sales that much  ?

 

JULY				% Change
MARQUE	2021	% Market share	2020		% Market share
Abarth	270	0.22	213	0.12	26.76
Alfa Romeo	114	0.09	185	0.11	-38.38
Alpine	9	0.01	10	0.01	-10.00
Audi	10,184	8.26	12,017	6.87	-15.25
Bentley	103	0.08	158	0.09	-34.81
BMW	7,863	6.38	11,446	6.54	-31.30
Citroen	1,858	1.51	3,330	1.90	-44.20
Cupra	593	0.48	0	0.00	0.00
Dacia	1,688	1.37	2,558	1.46	-34.01
DS	235	0.19	228	0.13	3.07
Fiat	1,613	1.31	1,949	1.11	-17.24
Ford	8,567	6.95	18,814	10.76	-54.46
Genesis	27	0.02	0	0.00	0.00
Honda	2,837	2.30	3,322	1.90	-14.60
Hyundai	5,959	4.83	5,425	3.10	9.84
Jaguar	1,288	1.04	2,746	1.57	-53.10
Jeep	517	0.42	555	0.32	-6.85
Kia	7,829	6.35	9,110	5.21	-14.06
Land Rover	3,240	2.63	5,730	3.28	-43.46
Lexus	1,114	0.90	1,309	0.75	-14.90

 

 

 

I doubt Lexus' NA engines have anything to do with their drop in sales ..   probably more like people tightening thier belts and covid ..   otherwise the likes if BMW, Jaguar, Honda, Audi and Alfa and the others on your list wouldn't have suffered to the same extent or worse...   ???

51 minutes ago, Phil-E said:

I'd say it's more than just the pure book figure of of the KW output. I have zeros fears joing the Autobahn with "just" 90kw. Even when it's been fully loaded with 3 adults, a dog, a boot full and 3 bikes on the tow bar.

 

But then a decent 200nm of torque between 1500 and 4000 rpm and a DSG gearbox helps get effortlessly and safely up to speed.

 

Sadly we have not the roads, or rather laws and police enforcement, to properly fully use our cars.

 

I have the  110 Kw version of the 1.4 TSI Octy 3 and it should be able to show well over 225 kph on the speedo on a good quite bit of motorway.  Had an Octy 2 petrols vrs with the 147 kw unit and that was still puling like a train with 240 kph on the speedo.  The Octy is a wonderful stable and aerodynamic platform no wonder it was chosen and achieved the sub 2 litre Land Speed at 367 kph.

 

New mark 4 Octy, with its incredible Aero drag coefficient of 0.24 will help it sip fuel whether it is E10 or E5.

  

43 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

I doubt Lexus' NA engines have anything to do with their drop in sales ..   probably more like people tightening thier belts and covid ..   otherwise the likes if BMW, Jaguar, Honda, Audi and Alfa and the others on your list wouldn't have suffered to the same extent or worse...   ???

 

Mostly pretty bad........https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ 

(SMMT data)

MG, Suzuki and Volvo seem to be done quite well, most other brands bad times.

 

Mazda	2,252	1.83	2,805	1.60	-19.71
Mercedes-Benz	6,786	5.50	10,254	5.86	-33.82
MG	2,411	1.96	1,846	1.06	30.61
MINI	3,136	2.54	4,442	2.54	-29.40
Mitsubishi	451	0.37	929	0.53	-51.45
Nissan	3,855	3.13	6,575	3.76	-41.37
Peugeot	2,602	2.11	6,392	3.65	-59.29
Polestar	309	0.25	8	0.00	3,762.50
Porsche	1,149	0.93	2,295	1.31	-49.93
Renault	1,304	1.06	6,598	3.77	-80.24
SEAT	4,352	3.53	5,357	3.06	-18.76
Skoda	5,196	4.21	6,121	3.50	-15.11
smart	114	0.09	168	0.10	-32.14
Ssangyong	103	0.08	172	0.10	-40.12
Subaru	135	0.11	60	0.03	125.00
Suzuki	2,307	1.87	1,877	1.07	22.91
Toyota	9,160	7.43	9,899	5.66	-7.47
Vauxhall	4,952	4.02	9,771	5.59	-49.32
Volkswagen	12,454	10.10	15,617	8.93	-20.25
Volvo	3,994	3.24	3,958	2.26	0.91