3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Copper used in the big cables from batteries to motors but some movement to make them Aluminium for ease of recycling.

 

Aluminium is not a good choice in that role, it has lower conductivity than copper, less flexible so more prone to strands fracturing from the flexing and vibrations associated with motor vehicles.

23 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

It will be the motors and the connections within batteries and all the gubbins. 

As to the weight of the copper that might be right. 

 

I do not write the stuff just ask the search engines, then another maybe, phone a friend, get the word on the street and last and least listen to The MacMaster or Geoff and their stuff that they read or heard. 

With the advent of trucks joining the party, they would be a better option for copper theft then as they would need meater connections to cope with their heavier demands hauling heavier payloads. Copper is not however used in the battery itself, but as the means of interconnection between cells and then between battery banks as busbars to build up to the voltage required.

 

Much the same really LA batteries used in car and buses / lorries, cars are 12v and are made as a single unit, buses / lorries normally are 24V and very often have 4 large capacity 6V batteries connected in series via large copper cables.

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Aluminium is not a good choice in that role, it has lower conductivity than copper, less flexible so more prone to strands fracturing from the flexing and vibrations associated with motor vehicles.

 

Indeed, all true, and presumedly it is an aluminium alloy and with a move to 48v or another higher voltage and less current the automotive industry is considering that but still actively evaluating as much of the car being aluminium, body, engine and electrics.

Grid uses aluminium in huge quantities I thought.

Latest cars have more panels made from plastics it seems which in my view is what oil should be used for and not inefficiently burning the stuff.

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

With the advent of trucks joining the party, they would be a better option for copper theft then as they would need meater connections to cope with their heavier demands hauling payloads.

 

Diesel theft has been a big problem for us and many logistics firms.

 

The mess these guys leave behind is biblical ie drill a tank with hundreds of litres in it and find the can only take a few tens of litres with the rest making an oil spill that costs hundreds or thousands of pounds to clean up.

 

Apparently the world wide copper shortage could be an issue in the transition to greener vehicles.

 

So that will be that then, until the next shortages of what ever.  Maybe the will to live, or the total apathy over the whole hole in the ozone stuff.

 

Maybe when the 'FIRE' buttons after the Codes are loaded there will be nothing to debate. 

@lol-lol To say nothing about the stench of diesel or its slipperiness, thieves don't care about the wastage or the mess they leave behind regardless of the item being stolen, as long as they get what they want, the rest of us can go whistle.  

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

US to introduce 100% Ad Valorem tariff on Chinese EVs.

 

EU and UK to do something similar to prevent Dumping on their car markets ?

 

58 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Indeed, all true, and presumedly it is an aluminium alloy and with a move to 48v or another higher voltage and less current the automotive industry is considering that but still actively evaluating as much of the car being aluminium, body, engine and electrics.

Grid uses aluminium in huge quantities I thought.

Latest cars have more panels made from plastics it seems which in my view is what oil should be used for and not inefficiently burning the stuff.

Commercial vehicle bodies and indeed some cars have been using Aluminium in their construction for decades. 

 

Tesla are looking at 48v to reduce weight, but I think they will still be using copper for the cables, the weight reduction will be via small gauge wires because the current drawn will be less.

 

Overhead high voltage grid cables are indeed aluminium, 1.5 times larger than they would be if copper was used, but they are 4 times lighter.

 

We are having a period of copper gas pipes being stolen from houses, these are often mounted externally from when the gas boilers had to be moved to enable their flues to exit though the roof to prevent carbon monoxide from entering the homes from any nearby air bricks or windows.

 

 

Copper pipe thefts

Please be vigilant of anyone conducting work outside your home. We’ve had reports of copper pipework theft locally. We’re not currently conducting any gas pipe related work in the area. If you see anything suspicious, call us on 0300 555 0500 or call 999 in an emergency. If you smell gas, call the national gas emergency service immediately on 0800 111 999.

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

30 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

US to introduce 100% Ad Valorem tariff on Chinese EVs.

 

EU and UK to do something similar to prevent Dumping on their car markets ?

 

I thought the EU and US were imposing the tariff to protect their local EV manufacturers, but does the UK make any electric cars? 

29 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

US to introduce 100% Ad Valorem tariff on Chinese EVs.

 

EU and UK to do something similar to prevent Dumping on their car markets ?

 

 

The UK govt will set a tariff to raise money from the success of the Chinese cars being sold here and encourage the sales, allowing them to be cheaper but not as low as they could be.

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Full of misinformation, this would only be true if the oil extracted is used purely for powering motor vehicles, look around yourself at the vast amount of things that are being made from plastics which includes all the electric cables and casings etc used within all EV's, typical of all channels and sources dedicated to EV's

 

Without the oil and all of its production pollutions, then we would have zero EV's fact. To think how people rant about Taycan man and Geoff buy Cars and M Guy for being biased and full of misinformation, none of their videos are packed full of BS unlike this "Fully Charged" spin off.

Which bit of it is not truthful? Can you be more specific?

 

Oil extraction, refinery all use huge amount of energy. Fact.

Those emissions are not calculated in car consumption. Fact.

 

Just because current world evolves around oil, does not mean we are reliant on oil indefinitely.

Just because current refinery output is such, does not mean it cannot be tweaked so that less petrol/diesel are produced and more of other stuff can be produced.

 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

That may be so, but in most locations it is illegal to let a power cable just lay across a footpath, not all councils are allowing the installation of cable ducts or the use cable protectors as they present a trip hazard (a bit rich really when you consider they are happy to leave pavements in a state of disrepair), so that really means a driveway is prerequisite to be able to plug in at home. 

Yes, I have always said driveways all throughout. Driveway owner = suitable EV owner in overwhelmingly vast majority of cases.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

The UK govt will set a tariff to raise money from the success of the Chinese cars being sold here and encourage the sales, allowing them to be cheaper but not as low as they could be.

 

US doing this under trade statute 301 and not Anti Dumping, Countervailing our Retalitary duties but still could go to the World Trade Organisation for decesion.

 

EU and UK could do the same and China might well stop certain minerals which they have a virtual monopoly which will harm some sections of electronics it is expected.

 

Trade wars can harm both consumers and some manufacturers, hopefully get sorted.

 

China will setup in some other countries, including Mexico probably, which is NAFTA, so circumvent these direct US on China goods traffic that way.

 

 

 

Surely if the government was serious about its zero emissions at the tail pipe policy then cheap Chinese imported EVs are a good thing to help get those horrible nasty patrol and diesel powered things of the road………..

The current import tariff for cars from China is 10%

4 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

The current import tariff for cars from China is 10%

 

Yes for Most Favored Nation rate Chinese cars in to EU or UK.

 

Was 25 % for China to US but will be put to 100 % if passed which it will as will get Democrat and Republican support.

 

11 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Surely if the government was serious about its zero emissions at the tail pipe policy then cheap Chinese imported EVs are a good thing to help get those horrible nasty patrol and diesel powered things of the road………..

 

With an election coming up then being tough defender of US jobs is key.

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Which bit of it is not truthful? Can you be more specific?

 

Oil extraction, refinery all use huge amount of energy. Fact.

Those emissions are not calculated in car consumption. Fact.

The way that the information was portrayed was giving the impression that all of that pollution was caused solely in the production of and transportation of oil to be used only in ICE which is a complete lie, lots of oil is used in loads of things from chemicals all the way through various plastics, many of which are used extensively in the production of EVs, never once did I hear any acknowledgement of that in the video. The implication of that is to imply that was all for use as gasoline to power ICE from ships to planes. EV vehicles would not exist if it were not for oil production, to make the plastic for the cables insulations, plastic switch gear, printed circuit boards, electronic parts, seating, body panels, right down to transmission oils, greases, brake fluids etc. but not a single reference was made.

 

Presumably trying to hood wink the uninitiated into the belief that all of that pollution once we make the transition to full electric motive power, it would be a thing of the past.

 

You actually know that oil extraction, production, shipping, refining will not cease and might well increase to meet the increased demand for the items I have already mentioned. What do you propose we use the liquid fuels currently refine from the crude oil for one ICE is abolished? It will still be there in huge volumes, as that cannot be used to produce the other items that we will still need from the oil?

 

EVs are just adding to the total amount of pollution and huge amounts of toxins that will be left behind that we cannot currently find a safe method of breaking down to become harmless, surely you cannot deny that. If switching to electric meant that oil was no longer going to be drilled for and extracted, all oil wells closed down etc then it would not be too bad, but that is never going to happen is it?

 

I've yet to hear that admitted by anybody from the pro EV camp.

 

Contrary to opinion, I'm not anti EV at all, I'm a realist and anti the knee-jerk reaction that is seeing the compulsory introduction of total electrification before we have fully learned what we are letting ourselves in for and how we can safely deal with any problems arising from this new technology.

 

I said it before, we could be heading into a massive mistake, far worse than diesel was when it was pronounced as the fuel of the future and how it was going to save the world? We now know that was not correct.

 

I like diesel, been involved one way or other with it since the 1960s,and willingly admit that it is far from perfect, nobody on the EV side has yet admitted that EV's could be the same again.

 

There is a reason for the old saying, "better the devil you know than the devil you don't"

 

'Better The Devil You Know' Meaning - UsingEnglish.com

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

40 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

With an election coming up then being tough defender of US jobs is key.

 

I wasn’t talking about the Merkins. 
 

 

46 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

EVs are just adding to the total amount of pollution and huge amounts of toxins that will be left behind that we cannot currently find a safe method of breaking down to become harmless, surely you cannot deny that. If switching to electric meant that oil was no longer going to be drilled for and extracted, all oil wells closed down etc then it would not be too bad, but that is never going to happen is it?

 

I've yet to hear that admitted by anybody from the pro EV camp.

 

Contrary to opinion, I'm not anti EV at all, I'm a realist and anti the knee-jerk reaction that is seeing the compulsory introduction of total electrification before we have fully learned what we are letting ourselves in for and how we can safely deal with any problems arising from this new technology.

I'm still not seeing any proof to say that the video is misinformation.

 

Remember:

Just because current world evolves around oil, does not mean we are reliant on oil indefinitely.

Just because current refinery output is such, does not mean it cannot be tweaked so that less petrol/diesel are produced and more of other stuff can be produced.

 

Refinery output are constantly being tweaked to produce optimum output matching demand.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/more-olefins-less-gasoline-petrochemical-fcc-enabler-da-silva-mba-

 

46 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

EVs are just adding to the total amount of pollution and huge amounts of toxins that will be left behind that we cannot currently find a safe method of breaking down to become harmless, surely you cannot deny that. If switching to electric meant that oil was no longer going to be drilled for and extracted, all oil wells closed down etc then it would not be too bad, but that is never going to happen is it?

 

I've yet to hear that admitted by anybody from the pro EV camp.

 

Contrary to opinion, I'm not anti EV at all, I'm a realist and anti the knee-jerk reaction that is seeing the compulsory introduction of total electrification before we have fully learned what we are letting ourselves in for and how we can safely deal with any problems arising from this new technology.

Regarding total lifetime pollution:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867

https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2022/06/18/we-need-to-measure-total-lifecycle-emissions-for-cars--but-evs-still-win/

https://about.bnef.com/blog/the-lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-vehicles/

 

If you want to label me as "pro-EV", but yet you refuse to believe multiple trustworthy sources arriving at same conclusion...... there can only be one label for you, it's definitely very far from realist.

@wyx087 When you are talking about apples you want to be corrupting the issue by talking about pears.

 

by quoting things like 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867

https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2022/06/18/we-need-to-measure-total-lifecycle-emissions-for-cars--but-evs-still-win/

https://about.bnef.com/blog/the-lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-vehicles/

 

You have demonstrated that you are coming at this from the wrong angle and when it comes to those 5 links, I'm NOT disputing them in any way as they are totally irrelevant and are nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

If you want to ignore what I'm saying, then that's fine but please don't attempt to put words in my mouth or twist what I'm saying.

 

I'm disagreeing with the way that that video was trying to portray the facts. I'm not disagreeing that it uses loads of energy to do those things, but that energy and pollution that follows is not being consumed or pollution being created for the sole purpose of making petrol and diesel, it is also making items that are used a lot in EV cars, and most of the other everyday items you use in your home, tool kit clothes, footwear etc. also come from the same oil, but that is not what the video makes clear. It wants the viewer to think only about the burning of the fossil fuel and compare that directly with electric.

 

Fact is electric also relies heavily on oil derived products such as those that I mentioned and EV cars could not exist without those so the two and linked, like it or not, its a fact.

Edited 14 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

 

Fact is electric also relies heavily on oil derived products such as those that I mentioned and EV cars could not exist without those so the two and linked, like it or not, its a fact.

and it's exactly for this reason that the Government are targeting "Zero Emissions at the Tailpipe" rather than "Zero Emissions per vehicle built" 

They are not targeting very hard.

The places and fleets with Hydrogen Vehicles are mainly in the North of the UK as in Scotland.

Where there has been money put into the Inftrastructure.

Honda were doing Hydrogen around Swindon. Took the money and then dropped that. 

 

 

After built using petrochemicals BEV,s are not using around 1 litre of the product refined from oil to go 10 miles,  passenger cars that is, maybe even 7 seaters with 1 seat ocupied.

& the refining uses a lot of Oil & Gas to generate the electricity to run the refinery, unless it is maybe Nuclear generated Electricity, but then that is not happening just now in the Ukraine. 

 

........................  Lots of Electricity used to build vehicles and components but there is renewables generating quite a lot of that for industry now.

 

Then 2 in every 5 cars built in the UK are Electrified.   Lots of MHEV & PHEV,s.  Less are BEV,s.

 

Electric MINIS will be coming in from China now for the next couple of years at least.

 

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

Lots of surplus generated electricity in Scotland where the National Grid is not connecting and taking it and where it needs used locally or not used.

 

Big investments announced  this week oop north on 2 ex Oil Rig Fabrication yards.  That is East of Inverness and north of Inverness oop north.

But still the big pylons need building to take the electricity south.

 

Then the Low Carbon Transport Hub, Hydrogen production and filling station is going up at the South of Perth. (Perth Scotland.)

 

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_36kfo6z_wW

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

Lots of surplus generated electricity in Scotland where the National Grid is not connecting and taking it and where it needs used locally or not used.

 

Big investments announced  this week oop north on 2 ex Oil Rig Fabrication yards.  That is East of Inverness and north of Inverness oop north.

But still the big pylons need building to take the electricity south.

 

Wind, Wave, Solar & Hydro. 

http://alvancebritishaluminium.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You have demonstrated that you are coming at this from the wrong angle and when it comes to those 5 links, I'm NOT disputing them in any way as they are totally irrelevant and are nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

If you want to ignore what I'm saying, then that's fine but please don't attempt to put words in my mouth or twist what I'm saying.

Did you not talk about whole life emission of EV and that there is pollution left behind after life of EV? 

I have never tried to put words in your mouth or twist what you are saying.

I am directly denying end of life pollution is a problem by referencing HUGE whole life reduction in emission, done by referencing multiple trustworthy sources of information.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

EVs are just adding to the total amount of pollution and huge amounts of toxins that will be left behind that we cannot currently find a safe method of breaking down to become harmless, surely you cannot deny that.

 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm disagreeing with the way that that video was trying to portray the facts. I'm not disagreeing that it uses loads of energy to do those things, but that energy and pollution that follows is not being consumed or pollution being created for the sole purpose of making petrol and diesel, it is also making items that are used a lot in EV cars, and most of the other everyday items you use in your home, tool kit clothes, footwear etc. also come from the same oil, but that is not what the video makes clear. It wants the viewer to think only about the burning of the fossil fuel and compare that directly with electric.

Again, I refer you to the fact that petrol and diesel production from refinery can be reduced:

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Remember:

Just because current world evolves around oil, does not mean we are reliant on oil indefinitely.

Just because current refinery output is such, does not mean it cannot be tweaked so that less petrol/diesel are produced and more of other stuff can be produced.

 

Refinery output are constantly being tweaked to produce optimum output matching demand.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/more-olefins-less-gasoline-petrochemical-fcc-enabler-da-silva-mba-

 

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Fact is electric also relies heavily on oil derived products such as those that I mentioned and EV cars could not exist without those so the two and linked, like it or not, its a fact.

Please provide evidence that EV must forever be reliant on oil derived products.

World is changing, when oil derived products were to stop, alternatives are available.

 

You are coming up with a lot of stuff but fail to reference any sources. Why should anyone believe words you are coming up with?

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by wyx087