Even the VW CEO thinks that group may only have 1 or 2 years left. Sad.....

Good EVs produced late, maybe ID7 & first to be a class leader.  In Germany next week, might have a chat or two.  Also hear it from German friends, so bad. 

 

 

Unusual for my local hub in as far as the 4 rapids are all in order and have been getting used.   ID Buzz commercials used by MITIE left as I arrived.  55 pence a kWh though no matter if on the 7 / 11/ 22 or 43 kW AC or 50 kW Rapids.      PS. Crap charging speed though for these types of EV ,s.   100 / 100+ needed the likes of here at side of the A90 / trunk routes.        If you want 100 plus charging Dundee to the South and 18 miles, or Perth going west 30 miles or Aberdeen or Aberdeen by-pass 55 miles. 

 

Edited 9 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Happy World EV day

https://www.worldevday.org/

 

(yes, that's a thing)

 

Free charging at RAW charging: https://rawcharging.com/raw-charging-offers-free-charging-to-celebrate-world-ev-day-for-the-third-year-in-a-row/

15% off at BP Pulse: https://www.bppulse.co.uk/going-electric/world-ev-day

I saved more than if i had used BP Pulse if i have known by charging Tesla non Tesla twice today.

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Happy World EV day

https://www.worldevday.org/

 

(yes, that's a thing)

 

Free charging at RAW charging: https://rawcharging.com/raw-charging-offers-free-charging-to-celebrate-world-ev-day-for-the-third-year-in-a-row/

15% off at BP Pulse: https://www.bppulse.co.uk/going-electric/world-ev-day

Yes, I know it is, World EV Day: 5 smart ways to save money with electric vehicles | Regit

Funny rant on EV website:

https://electrek.co/2024/09/10/ev-sales-have-not-fallen-cooled-slowed-or-slumped-stop-lying-in-headlines/

 

Quote

Media keeps pretending up is down

In covering these trends, some journalists have at least used the correct phrasing “slower growth,” showing that EV sales are still growing, but at a lower percentage change than previously seen.

But many, or perhaps even most, have taken the lazy – and incorrect – route of using descriptors that make it seem like sales have gone down, despite that they continue to go up.

This often takes the form of words like “cool” “fall” “slow” and “slump.” But none of these are accurate descriptors of still-rising sales.

All of these words would be best applied to a number that is decreasing, not to a number that is rising.

• If an object is thrown up in the air, it would not be described as “falling” until after it reaches the peak of its travel, despite that it is continually showing downward acceleration of 9.81m/s² from the moment it is released.
• If today is hotter than yesterday, temperatures are not “cooling” even if the degree of temperature rise was lower than it was on the previous day (80º -> 85º -> 88º does not show a “cooling” trend).
• If a car goes 0-30 in 2 seconds, and 30-60 in 3 seconds, that car is not “slowing” from 30-60. It is still accelerating.
• If a graph shows a rising curve, that curve is not “slumping” before it reaches its peak. A “slump” would be better applied to a trough or nadir in the graph, not the zenith of it and certainly not anywhere in the runup to the zenith.

 

 

That is US based data. Europe based data from June:

https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/general-information/news/europe-ev-sales-analysis-key-insights-june-2024-registrations

 

Quote

BEV Market Trends

The BEV market in June was marked by several influential factors. Notably, the market responded to the upcoming changes in import tariffs for Made-in-China (MiC) BEVs, leading to a brief surge in sales. Models like the MG4 and Volvo EX30 saw record-breaking registration numbers as consumers acted swiftly to secure vehicles before the tariff increase.

Despite the overall flat performance in BEV registrations, the market could have seen a 5% growth if Germany’s downturn in BEV sales had been excluded. Germany, Europe’s largest automotive market, experienced an 18% decline in BEV registrations, significantly impacting the overall numbers. This decline is partly attributed to the reduction in subsidies, which has dampened the market's momentum in Germany.

 

most if us probably have an understanding already however this is still an interesting video 
 

e

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Funny rant on EV website:

https://electrek.co/2024/09/10/ev-sales-have-not-fallen-cooled-slowed-or-slumped-stop-lying-in-headlines/

 

 

 

That is US based data. Europe based data from June:

https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/general-information/news/europe-ev-sales-analysis-key-insights-june-2024-registrations

 

 

Interesting, but if one looks solely at BEV, and ignores the hybrid and PHEVs then the trend is in fact downwards, so the headlines are not actually lying. You seem to be taking the view that any car with any form of electric assistance or totally electric equates to achieving zero tailpipe emissions, which is just pure BS.

 

The ultimate aim is eventually to go totally zero tailpipe emissions and the only way to currently achieve that is to go with either BEV or Hydrogen and looking at the figures above, in the US, the rise of pure BEV has currently peaked in the graph and is now in decline while the hybrid and PHEVs are growing, which means they will still be burning fossil fuels.

 

In the European data, it states that BEV sales would still be on the increase IF the slump in Germany was removed from the figures, where Germany has seen a 18% drop in the sales of pure BEV cars, so on that basis I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. 

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

 

The ultimate aim is eventually to go totally zero tailpipe emissions and the only way to currently achieve that is to go with either BEV or Hydrogen and looking at the figures above, in the US, the rise of pure BEV has currently peaked in the graph and is now in decline while the hybrid and PHEVs are growing, which means they will still be burning fossil fuels.

 

 

The Ultimate aim of the UK Government is to target Zero tailpipe emissions, the EU is (currently) targeting reduced tailpipe emissions (which PHEVs & HEVs count towards whereas in the UK they don't).

I think the US is adopting a similar approach to Europe

20 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

The Ultimate aim of the UK Government is to target Zero tailpipe emissions, the EU is (currently) targeting reduced tailpipe emissions (which PHEVs & HEVs count towards whereas in the UK they don't).

I think the US is adopting a similar approach to Europe

Yep, fair point, but then HEVs and PHEVs are not in the strictest sense of the word EVs, they only have a very small EV capability whereas a BEV is a true EV, it cannot use any other form of energy to propel itself, unless it is parked on a downhill slope, in which case even an ICE can also take full advantage of the gravity effect and thus generate zero tailpipe emissions.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yep, fair point, but then HEVs and PHEVs are not in the strictest sense of the word EVs, they only have a very small EV capability whereas a BEV is a true EV, it cannot use any other form of energy to propel itself, unless it is parked on a downhill slope, in which case even an ICE can also take full advantage of the gravity effect and thus generate zero tailpipe emissions.

However it appears that globally it is only the UK Government that is mandating for Zero Emissions at the tail pipes(ie BEVS and Hydrogen fuel cell)  , other areas aren't which may be why the BEV sales are dropping in those other areas as subsidies for BEVs are slowly withdrawn and market forces go " meh we don't want these, we're  happy with cheaper HEVS & PHEVS (& Range extenders) "

Given our Governments almost unique stance we may end up being a sub standard market because if globally there is no incentive to produce BEVs and especialy if the only place (due to interventionism) that "wants" them needs also to be built as RHD why should they build BEVs if the global market isn't there for them?

 

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Winston_Woof

China will be more than happy to supply dodgy RHD BEV's to the UK for much cheapness I imagine.

@Lee01   what will be dodgy about them or more dodgy than ones built in the EU or UK?  1 in 4 EV,s in Europe will be built in China.

It is the likes of BMW / MINI, VW Group including Cupra, Tesla, Citroen / DS, Dacia, Lotus, Polestar / Volvo, Smart are having cars built in China.

27 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

China will be more than happy to supply dodgy RHD BEV's to the UK for much cheapness I imagine.

The Chinese manufacturers prices will be cheap and then the Government will slap huge import taxes on raking in more money at the expense of the UK consumer who can't get a BEV from traditional auto suppliers because they have no interest in building them to meet the UK Government's isolationist and interventionist policies

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

but if one looks solely at BEV, and ignores the hybrid and PHEVs then the trend is in fact downward

Read my post again regarding BEV market trend quoted in the European article.

BEV sales is in fact flat, not downwards as you wrongly claimed.

 

Quote

Despite the overall flat performance in BEV registrations, the market could have seen a 5% growth if Germany’s downturn in BEV sales had been excluded. Germany, Europe’s largest automotive market, experienced an 18% decline in BEV registrations, significantly impacting the overall numbers. This decline is partly attributed to the reduction in subsidies, which has dampened the market's momentum in Germany.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

In the European data, it states that BEV sales would still be on the increase IF the slump in Germany was removed from the figures, where Germany has seen a 18% drop in the sales of pure BEV cars, so on that basis I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. 

What discredit had there been? Do you mind highlighting the sentence that is discrediting "the truth"?

 

Truth is that across Europe, BEV sales is flat.

Truth is that Germany subsidy were taken away which impacted its sales figures negatively.

Truth is that outside Germany, BEV sales is growing at steady rate.

 

Is your "truth" different to those reported?

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

@Lee01   what will be dodgy about them or more dodgy than ones built in the EU or UK?  1 in 4 EV,s in Europe will be built in China.

It is the likes of BMW / MINI, VW Group including Cupra, Tesla, Citroen / DS, Dacia, Lotus, Polestar / Volvo, Smart are having cars built in China.

 

Just expressing an opinion, George. Cheap Chinese steel made by Chinese human drones who aren't all that well paid, cheap plastics and varying quality elctrics and electronic components. Not to mention the miles travelled to get to Europe etc.
Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft and others really should have got ahead of the curve a while back IMO

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Lee01

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Read my post again regarding BEV market trend quoted in the European article.

BEV sales is in fact flat, not downwards as you wrongly claimed.

 

I wrote the following 
The ultimate aim is eventually to go totally zero tailpipe emissions and the only way to currently achieve that is to go with either BEV or Hydrogen and looking at the figures above, in the US, the rise of pure BEV has currently peaked in the graph and is now in decline while the hybrid and PHEVs are growing, which means they will still be burning fossil fuels.

 

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What discredit had there been? Do you mind highlighting the sentence that is discrediting "the truth"?

 

Discrediting was not aimed at you, it was the site that you linked to.

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

In the European data, it states that BEV sales would still be on the increase IF the slump in Germany was removed from the figures, where Germany has seen a 18% drop in the sales of pure BEV cars, so on that basis I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. 

Please do highlight the sentence that shows the European article is "trying desperately to discredit".

 

Do the sales numbers lie, according to you? How does one discredit numbers?

 

 

(of course you didn't specify what you were talking about. For clarity, I'm only talking about European data)

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by wyx087

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Truth is that across Europe, BEV sales is flat.

Truth is that Germany subsidy were taken away which impacted its sales figures negatively.

Truth is that outside Germany, BEV sales is growing at steady rate.

 

Is your "truth" different to those reported?

Read what I wrote again, I said that in Europe BEV sales would still be on the increase IF the slump in Germany was removed from the figures, where Germany has seen a 18% drop in the sales of pure BEV cars, so on that basis I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. IE. the first website you linked if you did not already work that out.

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. 

Do the sales numbers lie, according to you? How does one discredit numbers?

 

Are any of those truth I listed, not true?

 

What spin can you put on this?

 

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Please do highlight the sentence that shows the European article is "trying desperately to discredit".

 

Do the sales numbers lie, according to you? How does one discredit numbers?

 

 

(of course you didn't specify what you were talking about. For clarity, I'm only talking about European data)

If you were only talking about European data, then why post the website link that only gives US data, which is where that graph came from? 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

If you were only talking about European data, then why post the website link that only gives US data, which is where that graph came from? 

The US rant gave me a chuckle. Hence: "funny rant on EV website".

 

We live in Europe don't we? Hence shared Europe data.

 

Still, here, you are talking about Europe data and trying to discredit it solely for reason that it was published on a platform that you view has a vested interest.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

In the European data, it states that BEV sales would still be on the increase IF the slump in Germany was removed from the figures, where Germany has seen a 18% drop in the sales of pure BEV cars, so on that basis I would class that article as an example of a platform with a vested interest trying desperately to discredit those that are actually reporting the truth (at the time) and put their own spin on things so as not to water down the narrative. 

 

So please do share your "truth". Reporting on sales data is not the truth?

Who do you consider is actually reporting the truth? Have you vetted them to ensure absolutely zero vested interest?

Why do you say they have put their own spin on things? As far as I can see, it is laid out in 3 simple statements:

https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/general-information/news/europe-ev-sales-analysis-key-insights-june-2024-registrations

Quote

Overall flat performance in BEV registrations.

(BEV) Market could have seen a 5% growth if Germany’s downturn in BEV sales had been excluded.

Germany, Europe’s largest automotive market, experienced an 18% decline in BEV registrations, significantly impacting the overall numbers. This decline is partly attributed to the reduction in subsidies, which has dampened the market's momentum in Germany.

 

 

It would appear that although the UK Government would "prefer" new car buyers to "invest" in BEVs that the market appears to prefer PHEVs given how much better they have performed compared to this time last year . HEVs have fallen out of favour in comparison though



https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/evs-and-afvs-registrations/

@wyx087 If you read my posts, I have already said the discredit and the bias comment referred only to the US data that you posted. I also posted the graph from that US data that clearly shows that BEV sales are in decline in the US.

 

As to the European data, I also agreed that if the German results were ignored that there would be growth, I never said that the European market was in decline, that is your spin on what I said.

 

I do agree however that in my first post I never made it clear the vested interest and the discrediting of other, actually referred to the US data. In later posts I said that those comments actually referred to the US data ONLY and you still ignore that point.

So that was my bad, just as it is your bad when you later claimed that your comments were only related to the European data, which was not made clear in your first post on the subject.

 

Now, can we please stop slagging each other off and dragging this thread downhill??

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher