Hyundai are offering "refreshed" secondhand BEV cars with a warranty on the battery pack of 100,000 miles or 5 years, which ever comes first.

5 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Hardly mentions EVs and mainly describes how a new technology gets launched and how it takes time to find its place in the market. Car companies allegedly trying to manipulate the market and how bulk leasing and returning off leading distorts second hand value.

 

Where post cars are pcp leased in the first place the leaser can choose to pay the balloon payment or hand it back or the third way can be to make any agreement with the dealer to pay the market rate, even though thousands below the balloon payment and keep the car they have grown to love. I gather this sub balloon payment figure could be less than two thirds of the balloon payment.

 

I know I can get more than 10% more than the stated wltp range ie 260+ miles is possible when I am driving meaning the energy cost is around 1.5p per mile so it a car I want to keep for short to medium uk journeys and use the European car of the year 2024 Scenic for the longer journeys.

 

Be glad to get rid of owning ICE cars though will occasionally ask to use my sons hybrid Clio to reminisce over the old tech piston engined cars.

 

Re the MINI comparison vid.  Ok the Oxford built Mini Cooper S was a 2.0 lt automatic with sport box option so paddles.  He never bothered to mention that without an S you can have a 1.5 TSI Automatic which still does the same trip at the same speeds and uses less fuel.  Maybe on narrower tyres on smaller wheels.  Drives loads better.     Biggest omission is re the New Electric Mini.       The SE he had, bigger battery, more power, heavier, but there is the MINI Cooper E and that would have needed charging as well. Same time to charge as 75kW max.  But the lighter car is more efficient.    Smaller Battery less power, lighter.  very relevant.    As is Tesla non Tesla charging at half InstaVolt prices.  I never understand why they think an Adult will fit behind the driver.  Either put 2 in the back.  Or as a MINI really works.  3 people and the seat behind the driver dropped to get cases or stuff in.. A short lift for 3 passengers means a double leg amp or child behind a driver.      I never get the higher seat thing.  There is no battery under the seats like in a Stellantis car.  The battery is under the interior floor and the battery bottom above the ground.  The seat base is the same height from the floor.  It is just the floor is higher from the ground inside.   The floor to sill height is the same.   I never actually see any of the reviewers with seat fully down and fully back as I drive.  Which is why my short arms, finger tips do not reach the Experience rocker or the drive mode it anything more than half way across the screen without bending forward.  I need the seat back for my position to drive, use pedals, and I have the steering wheel back and lowest it goes.  They are Sh|te IMO, but the cheaper less powerful and lighter ones are better drivers than the more powerful and heavier .  Then the torque steer is not fun. It is crap ECO sporty tyres with little grip / traction / friction / safety.   

Edited 16 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Hardly mentions EVs and mainly describes how a new technology gets launched and how it takes time to find its place in the market. Car companies allegedly trying to manipulate the market and how bulk leasing and returning off leading distorts second hand value.

 

Where post cars are pcp leased in the first place the leaser can choose to pay the balloon payment or hand it back or the third way can be to make any agreement with the dealer to pay the market rate, even though thousands below the balloon payment and keep the car they have grown to love. I gather this sub balloon payment figure could be less than two thirds of the balloon payment.

 

I know I can get more than 10% more than the stated wltp range ie 260+ miles is possible when I am driving meaning the energy cost is around 1.5p per mile so it a car I want to keep for short to medium uk journeys and use the European car of the year 2024 Scenic for the longer journeys.

 

Be glad to get rid of owning ICE cars though will occasionally ask to use my sons hybrid Clio to reminisce over the old tech piston engined cars.

 

 

The discussion I heard was about how EV's are being registered then stored, being sold later even to the point of calling them second hand up to two years later and how that was affecting the used car market in general. But people hear what they want to hear.

 

Edited 15 September, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

Just now, Stonekeeper said:

 

The discussion I heard was about how EV's are being registered then stored, being sold later even to the point of calling them second hand up to two years later and how that was affecting the used car market in general. But people hear what they want to hear.

 

Seem to happen with Nissan LEAFs and then being unwarehoused but then they are made in uk ie Sunderland (ha ha Sunderland, beaten by Argyle).  Zoes were mass taken on to lease in their thousands and then splurged on to the market is why Renault dealers do not want them back but they are still great cars to run for about 20p a mile and claim 45p a mile for.

 

The full story is very complex but boils down to how much a month to rent and run.

 

UK Treasury rates for car mileage are so far behind real running costs and pay per mile will make it worse ie that will need adding on to Treasury rates to pay those making journeys for work, civil duties etc.

 

Then many by cars as statements as well as work tools they are getting annual and pet mile allowances for and many payout far more than these allowances so a 3 year old LEAF for silly money may work even if only a 39 kwh battery and therefore circa 150 mile range and charging with a granny charger cable.

 

16 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

The Stellantis, Peugeot e 2008 is seeing some big discounts. The Megane etech BEV quite large too. Scenic etech still demanding prices closer too its RRP.  The tech is moving so fast that yesterday's tech the price dealers are will to sell plus selling one BEV means they can go ahead and sell 3 ICEs.

 

Approved used Full service history 1 owner 3 miles

 

Edited 15 September, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Hardly mentions EVs and mainly describes how a new technology gets launched and how it takes time to find its place in the market. Car companies allegedly trying to manipulate the market and how bulk leasing and returning off leading distorts second hand value.

 

Where post cars are pcp leased in the first place the leaser can choose to pay the balloon payment or hand it back or the third way can be to make any agreement with the dealer to pay the market rate, even though thousands below the balloon payment and keep the car they have grown to love. I gather this sub balloon payment figure could be less than two thirds of the balloon payment.

 

I know I can get more than 10% more than the stated wltp range ie 260+ miles is possible when I am driving meaning the energy cost is around 1.5p per mile so it a car I want to keep for short to medium uk journeys and use the European car of the year 2024 Scenic for the longer journeys.

 

Be glad to get rid of owning ICE cars though will occasionally ask to use my sons hybrid Clio to reminisce over the old tech piston engined cars.

 

There were loads of discussion around EVs and how the dealers are going out of business through having to pre-register cars and then storing them and bringing them out again a few months or in some cases a year or 2 later and sell them as second hand, many of them with only around 11 miles on the clock. This is all because of the mandate to go all electric for new cars, which was bad enough when the date was 2035, and even worse now with the UK date of 2030 and the massive fines for each car that the makers have to pay for each car under their target. They are forcing dealers to take these cars, register them, store them and then sell at a loss in some cases as second hand cars and these dealers are really struggling to keep their heads above the water. 

They discussed how many of these YT presenters who were once TV presenters are just pushing the narrative all the time about how great EVs are and how wonderful the range of them is. That just reinforces my own feelings that these particular sites do in fact have some sort of vested interest in the continuing push of EVs by continually spreading misinformation. As was said in the video, they are just perfect for some people and if you have the means of home charging, and can manage to keep within the range of a home charge then they do become a "No Brainer"  as they will save you lots of money in the long run which is what I and loads of others have said. 

 

It seems that @Stonekeeper was right, people will hear what they want to hear.

Every time I fill my car with diesel, I reset the trip meter, as you can see from the photo I'm on course to do in the order of 880 miles to a single tank of fuel (66 litres) and I have been to Lakenheath, Mildenhall, Stansted, Duxford and Heathrow in the last 2 days covering 335 miles and still have 545 miles (62.5%)  of range left before I need to recharge my tank. Obviously, it is not likely to achieve that if I do too many short city trips, which is the ideal scenario for EVs with a high level of regen being achieved. This is what EVs need to be capable of to lure those those without the home charging ability to consider an EV IMO.

 

I don't think not being able to charge at home will be a problem by 2035.

 

By then the 30 min for 200 mile or better will probably be the norm and a lot of people will only have to do it once or twice a week

 

The question at the moment is whether the industry will survive the current Government mandate in the UK

8 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

I don't think not being able to charge at home will be a problem by 2035.

 

By then the 30 min for 200 mile or better will probably be the norm and a lot of people will only have to do it once or twice a week

 

The question at the moment is whether the industry will survive the current Government mandate in the UK

At the moment, the way things are going, the only way you'll be able to buy a new car in the UK could be like the Tesla model, direct from the makers, dealers will become a thing of the past.

That said, I really think the bubble is going to burst, and the whole net-zero thing will be scrapped and there will be legislation introduced to continue with ICE as an option but with a mandate to drive down the emissions, which was already happening in the first place. EVs will be just become an option that people can choose if they wish, and then market forces will prevail and the buying public will decide which option best suits their needs and ambitions. 

16 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

 

16 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

@StonekeeperEvery time I fill my car with diesel, I reset the trip meter, as you can see from the photo I'm on course to do in the order of 880 miles to a single tank of fuel (66 litres) and I have been to Lakenheath, Mildenhall, Stansted, Duxford and Heathrow in the last 2 days covering 335 miles and still have 545 miles (62.5%)  of range left before I need to recharge my tank. Obviously, it is not likely to achieve that if I do too many short city trips, which is the ideal scenario for EVs with a high level of regen being achieved. This is what EVs need to be capable of to lure those those without the home charging ability to consider an EV IMO.

 

Everytime you will up you will up you send money to despots in the world, bad. You do send about £50 to the government which they desperately need after the last government leaving a £3B national debt.

 

Excise duty on fuel is the most efficient tax to collect and the 5p excise tax reduction and the return to inflation matching rise in excise duty. 

 

Getting more trucks and vans over to electric is an important and relatively easy step to lowering CO2 and NOX emissions and hopefully we will see timetable for that in next month's budget.

 

Still waiting to see if UK will put similar countervailing duties on Chinese EVs like Canada, EU and USA has but many countries have not brought in CV duties ie those without lame home based  car makers like VAG, BMW and Mercedes to protect.

 

Edited 16 September, 20241 yr by lol-lol

https://www.ecoticias.com/en/china-presents-gac-new-engine/6364/

 

China has a new electric motor giving a result of 98.5% efficiency compared to today's motors which are around 90% efficient converting the electrical energy to forward motion. This could therefore add 34 kms of wltp range to a 400 km range EV or over 50 kms to a 600 km range EV without any change to the battery or other systems but as we know these other systems are improving several percent per year also.

 

Edited 16 September, 20241 yr by lol-lol

I drove my first electric car today. Evvah.

They left a BMW ix1 when they took the mini. So I drove it (all of 50m to the back of the house).
No comments on the drive at all tbh but I would say that the interior of this £45-50k car was ghastly.
It felt very cheap and quite nasty. Wonder if EVs have allowed manufacturers to put in some 'futuristic' features which are in fact outstandingly naff and cheap.

19 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

Every time I fill my car with diesel, I reset the trip meter, as you can see from the photo I'm on course to do in the order of 880 miles to a single tank of fuel (66 litres) and I have been to Lakenheath, Mildenhall, Stansted, Duxford and Heathrow in the last 2 days covering 335 miles and still have 545 miles (62.5%)  of range left before I need to recharge my tank. Obviously, it is not likely to achieve that if I do too many short city trips, which is the ideal scenario for EVs with a high level of regen being achieved. This is what EVs need to be capable of to lure those those without the home charging ability to consider an EV IMO.

Yup this is what I like about ICE. 
 

Brimmed the tank Fri, drove from Wigan to Ardrossan Saturday. Currently pooling around on Arran and (unless my GF complains) will more than likely get back home next Sat on the same tank(she hates it whenever a fuel tank goes below half). 
 

That said I would seriously consider a PHEV when I come to replacement.   EV for the short local journeys, petrol for the longer runs. Best of both worlds. 
 

 

 

15 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

Yup this is what I like about ICE. 
 

Brimmed the tank Fri, drove from Wigan to Ardrossan Saturday. Currently pooling around on Arran and (unless my GF complains) will more than likely get back home next Sat on the same tank(she hates it whenever a fuel tank goes below half). 
 

That said I would seriously consider a PHEV when I come to replacement.   EV for the short local journeys, petrol for the longer runs. Best of both worlds. 
 

 

 

Even if the UK government restore the inflation escalator for fuel excise duty whilst electricity gets cheaper and cheaper, as it is, to the point of being almost free ?

 

I can understand this for the like of Clarkson who has made a career of being contrary but ordinary people with an amount to spend each week/ month/year etc it is becoming just economic good sense to go EV to save 8p a mile and then to have that money to spend on other things rather than ARAMCO profits ?

 

Although tax is coming. Not sure how yet, but it's inescapable. That will decrease 10p/mile saving down to something like 5p/mile. (12p/mile consist of around 6p tax?). 

 

Only sure thing is that home charging will always be cheaper than public charging. That aforementioned social divide in car forums....... although I'm not hearing people on car forums talk about the bigger social divide between have cars and have not cars. Funny how opinions work.  

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

Although tax is coming. Not sure how yet, but it's inescapable. That will decrease 10p/mile saving down to something like 5p/mile. (12p/mile consist of around 6p tax?). 

Only sure thing is that home charging will always be cheaper than public charging. That aforementioned social divide in car forums....... although I'm not hearing people on car forums talk about the bigger social divide between have cars and have not cars. Funny how opinions work.  

 

Taxation has to be effectively collected and with Excise Duty on fuel it is just the easiest to collect except for those lorro=ies that come in to the UK with their diesel tanks brim full, do hundreds of miles on UK roads and then leave the UK again without buying UK fuel whilst doing huge damage and wear to UK roads.

 

Collecting duty on the the electrical energy that goes in to EVs is just about impossible as there are so many way that energy go be harvested and put in to the EV.  I heard one detailed chat on the radio where a bloke was talking about using the in car telephone systems we have ie for the SOS function and Over the Air updates to just charge EVs per mile as there just about is no other war to capture taxation from EVs.

 

With free electricity sessions the running cost our cheap.  servicing should remain half or less the cost of ICE cars. Insurance has been cheap on the Zoe and I think will be OK on the 170 hp Scenic.  Tyres I was worried about being 19 inch ones but the 205s seem to be quite cheap. I want to ditch the Michelin Primacy ones for so Pilot Sports or Toyo or the like.

 

I can see EVs being super cheap for the foreseeable. Will look at doing the Dereg/reg trick to set the VED month to March for both of my EVs but that does not kick in to 2026 to be anywhere near being a significant cost.  

Yes, there's so many ways EV ownership is cheap. I was alluding to the recent talk about taxing per mile. 

 

Current vehicle telemetric accuracy is questionable, there is also up to 10% reporting difference in many cars. This is significant enough to make it a no go. Not forgetting older EV like my early Leaf no longer have functioning telemetric. Could do through MOT but that introduces other problems, such as solving first 3 year ownership and clocking. 

 

Measuring home charge point wouldn't work because there's so many other ways to charge. It would promote use of granny chargers and result lots of burnt out plug sockets as minimum. Most of the charge point consumption measuring is not up to metering standard. Measuring what goes into the car would also stifle much needed V2X  innovations. 

 

Taxing EV usage will happen, just the method is still up in the air. My point was that even with per mile tax such as the one recently in the news, EV still will always be cheaper to run when charged at home. 

16 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

Yup this is what I like about ICE. 
 

Brimmed the tank Fri, drove from Wigan to Ardrossan Saturday. Currently pooling around on Arran and (unless my GF complains) will more than likely get back home next Sat on the same tank(she hates it whenever a fuel tank goes below half). 
 

That said I would seriously consider a PHEV when I come to replacement.   EV for the short local journeys, petrol for the longer runs. Best of both worlds. 
 

 

Ditto, last tank I did indeed manage to do 835 miles and refilled last night, out again today and currently on course for 845 miles to the tank. It is the town trips that cripple the range, so a PHEV is the ideal car as it maximises the range and meets tail pipe emissions in town. 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Even if the UK government restore the inflation escalator for fuel excise duty whilst electricity gets cheaper and cheaper, as it is, to the point of being almost free ?

 

 

 

????

He may be referring to likes of this 

https://octopus.energy/free-electricity/

and this

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/peak-save/sunday.html

Also post-code dependent sessions for lucky people living near wind farm grid connections. 

 

To most people with time of use tariff, the off-peak isn't getting more expensive and we are getting more and more cheap/free events. 

 

There had been 5 Octopus free sessions so far, I received £3.80 credit for the first 4 sessions. I turned on the tap to maximum for session last Saturday, consumed over 12 kWh of electricity during the free hour (charge 2 cars 7 + 5 kW and a 95c washing machine maintenance cycle) looking forward to about £2.60 credit. 

 

Wholesale gas price has risen a little bit, I suppose that is the reason for price cap to rise. It is driven by people who cannot time-shift their electricity out of expensive peak period, which still relies upon expensive fossil fuel peaking plants, and pushes up the average. 

 

So from my limited experience, free/cheap electricity certainly seems like more abundant. Whether that is the long term truth, it's anyone's guess. I feel cheap sessions will only get more often but also more extreme price swings depend on the weather. 

 

 

Related Beeb article: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66775731

 

Edited 17 September, 20241 yr by wyx087

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

????

 

Most EV drivers who charge at home are on a dual rate tariff so they get several hours of electricity at about 37% of the slightly inflated Day time rate we pay but or Day time rate is only about 2% more than flat single rate other flat earth users get charged so basically it was a 4 hour but now 5 hour window to fill your boots. Octopus Go rates are expected to go up and I might be paying about 9.3p per kWh from October 1st but the fact it went from 4 hours to 5 hours was a huge change and not for just charger my Scenic and Zoe but for the rest of the house as well ie all the house's electrical usage.  I expect the Day rate to go up 10%, so to about 25p per kWh, and stay at that sort of level for Q1 2025 and then fall even more than this year for Q2 and Q3 of 2025 as UK solar increases and UK and northern European wind produces ever more power which will need to find a market.

Night rate (00:30 - 05:30):   8.5p / kW

Day rate (05:30 - 00:30):  22.8p / kWh

Standing charge:   60.66p / day

 

Edited 17 September, 20241 yr by lol-lol