56 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

It would appear that although the UK Government would "prefer" new car buyers to "invest" in BEVs that the market appears to prefer PHEVs given how much better they have performed compared to this time last year . HEVs have fallen out of favour in comparison though



https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/evs-and-afvs-registrations/

Actually, the above figures are also IMO not telling the real truth as I believe that you currently cannot buy either HEV or PHEV with diesel as the main power plant, so that means that those cars have petrol power plants which should really be added to the total figures for petrol, is that a fair statement to make?

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Actually, the above figures are also IMO not telling the real truth as I believe that you currently cannot buy either HEV or PHEV with diesel as the main power plant, so that means that those cars have petrol power plants which should really be added to the total figures for petrol, is that a fair statement to make?

No

Is the Mercedes GLC 300 de  still sold new? That's one example of a diesel PHEV

Also I believe the E class estate can be had as a diesel mild or plugin hybrid

Range Rover & BMW X5s are also available as diesel based mild hybrids

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Winston_Woof

19 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

No

Is the Mercedes GLC 300 de  still sold new? That's one example of a diesel PHEV

Also I believe the E class estate can be had as a diesel mild or plugin hybrid

Range Rover & BMW X5s are also available as diesel based mild hybrids

Oh, OK, well in that case shouldn't those figures be added in to those for their respected petrol or diesel counterparts, because they are extremely unlikely to driven solely as electric cars only agreed they will help to reduce tailpipe emissions, but as you said in an earlier post, the UK government is targeting zero tailpipe emissions and thus, HEVs and PHEVs cannot do that

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh, OK, well in that case shouldn't those figures be added in to those for their respected petrol or diesel counterparts, because they are extremely unlikely to driven solely as electric cars only agreed they will help to reduce tailpipe emissions, but as you said in an earlier post, the UK government is targeting zero tailpipe emissions and thus, HEVs and PHEVs cannot do that

No they shouldn't be added in. if its PHEV or HEV then it is what it is regardless of the ICE element, unless of course you're trying the statisticians trick of diluting the figures  to make BEV sales look better in comparison ;o)

Do you want to split BEVs by battery technology or some other criteria such as capacity ?? Probably not .

As for the last part of your reply that's the whole point. They may not count towards the UK Governments' insistence on Zero rather than a general overall lowering but the sales figures would suggest that the market prefers PHEVS to BEVs (even though thats what the Govt wants you to buy)  as their sales are increasing at a higher rate than BEV sales

EDIT: Actually there's an argument that Diesel & Petrol could be grouped together as ICE especially given how small a share of the market  diesels have on their own.

Edited 11 September, 20241 yr by Winston_Woof

59 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

No they shouldn't be added in. if its PHEV or HEV then it is what it is regardless of the ICE element, unless of course you're trying the statisticians trick of diluting the figures  to make BEV sales look better in comparison ;o)

Do you want to split BEVs by battery technology or some other criteria such as capacity ?? Probably not .

As for the last part of your reply that's the whole point. They may not count towards the UK Governments' insistence on Zero rather than a general overall lowering but the sales figures would suggest that the market prefers PHEVS to BEVs (even though thats what the Govt wants you to buy)  as their sales are increasing at a higher rate than BEV sales

EDIT: Actually there's an argument that Diesel & Petrol could be grouped together as ICE especially given how small a share of the market  diesels have on their own.

So essentially we are both in agreement here, maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. Yes the stats do show that the UK market does indeed favour HEVs and PHEV over pure electric which is exactly the same point I was making but with caveat that the both HEV and PHEV are still going to be using a lot of fossil fuels, so as far as emissions are concerned have far more in common with pure ICE then they do with pure electric as they will both still be producing tailpipe emissions.

Swings and roundabouts.

One thing is sure and that is that the Manufacturers need to get a lot of Electric Cars registered in the UK in the next 3 1/2 months. 

Edited 12 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

So essentially we are both in agreement here, maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. Yes the stats do show that the UK market does indeed favour HEVs and PHEV over pure electric which is exactly the same point I was making but with caveat that the both HEV and PHEV are still going to be using a lot of fossil fuels, so as far as emissions are concerned have far more in common with pure ICE then they do with pure electric as they will both still be producing tailpipe emissions.

No you didn't 🤪

Actually that's another observation from me.

The Petrol market share has barely changed from 23 to 24, would you agree that suggests most of the PHEV|BEV gain was from consumers who might historically have bought diesels as they are the largest downward figure?

By extrapolation it could be said that buyers of petrol cars aren't being swayed as much towards any flavour of EV and that really Government policy isn't working and that the move to EV (in all its varieties) is currently mostly due to market dissatisfaction  with diesel .

@Winston_WoofI think it is more likely the move from diesel to petrol is more down to people's fear that the tax on diesel may have large hikes in coming years as a possible measure to drive up the BEV sales. Diesel is blamed for most of NOX emissions. The strategy for Net Zero might eventually change to fall in line the others for a reduction in emissions as it is looking like it would fail to hit the target date anyway. 

Real World UK & Diesels.

 

Not a dissatisfaction with diesel cars.  Those that can benefit financially running a diesel do run a diesel, if it is their choice and not their Employers or Fleet manager. 

 

It is Fleet, Business, Commercial users and the economics of the running diesels and the BIK, HMRC, etc etc.

As far as Private Buyers / Leasing what ever that is a different mater and people are scared away from having a diesel and can see the benefits or believed benefits of a Petrol or a Mild Hybrid or PHEV.  Then the choices of small diesels is very limited.

Maybe have been stung in the past with Small Diesels when they got them at the time of the scrappage scheme. 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@Winston_WoofI think it is more likely the move from diesel to petrol is more down to people's fear that the tax on diesel may have large hikes in coming years as a possible measure to drive up the BEV sales. Diesel is blamed for most of NOX emissions. The strategy for Net Zero might eventually change to fall in line the others for a reduction in emissions as it is looking like it would fail to hit the target date anyway. 

Oddly enough has anyone else noticed how the delta between PPL for diesel and PPL for petrol has been dropping recently?

For example my local petrol station fiesel is 134.9ppl & petrol is 132.9ppl which is a delta of 4ppl  whereas it only seems like a few weeks or so ago that delta was hovering closer to 10ppl.

NB Premium  Diesel & Super Unleaded are both 164.9ppl

@Winston_Woof yes I have noticed this myself and I'm preparing myself for a big price jump again shortly as I think this is the result of RAC highlighting that despite the wholesale price has dropped by a large margin, the retail prices have not and they accused retailers of price gouging. There is a supposed hike in fuel duty coming soon experts have warned of rising fuel costs as well.

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/09/09/audi-row-with-brussels-workers-heats-up-as-it-demands-return-of-keys
 

Interesting article. Apologies if it’s already been discussed.

This could become a reality here that anyone with a pure electric car could stumble across, but not for the same reason but is still a real potential problem  because of power restrictions, or an cyber attack knocking out the payment system etc.

 

 

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

This could become a reality here that anyone with a pure electric car could stumble across, but not for the same reason but is still a real potential problem  because of power restrictions, or an cyber attack knocking out the payment system etc.

 

 

 

There will always be one or probably several ways to get electricity in to one's EV. From 3 pin chargers to using ones own home batteries and solar and letting friends with EVs use our charging systems.

 

If that Saudi oil runs out from the petrol station down the road the that is it until the next tanker arrives and even then it will be bought up in minutes.

 

Electricity will get cheaper and cheaper as Europe in increasingly over producing for ever increasing periods. Another free our tomorrow and I am not home. Be ready for the next one with two home chargers and home batteries to take advantage of free and night cheap lecky.

 

Just today, another 1 hour free excess electricity session thanks to lots of wind up north (I think, was calm down south) and good solar production. Yesterday, today's and a little bit of tomorrow's driving fuel cost: 0p.

 

In case of any power outage, just offload my home battery into EV or one EV into another. (there's a recent hacker showing unmodified Model Y energy dumping into Powerwall: https://zecar.com/reviews/tesla-model-y-bidirectional-charging-v2h)

Cyber attack? My whole house has ability to run locally, I run my own Home Assistant. (recently added redundancy and achieved high availability via server clustering)

 

China is different don't forget. they have lots of private hire NEV (new energy vehicle, currently vast majority battery) from private hire leases driven by people living in flats. Notice how the queues are mostly same cars? They rely on public chargers multiple times a day due to cars being cheap with poor range. So any charging outage means queues piling up, just like UK's 2022 petrol station queues.

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just today, another 1 hour free excess electricity session thanks to lots of wind up north (I think, was calm down south) and good solar production. Yesterday, today's and a little bit of tomorrow's driving fuel cost: 0p.

 

In case of any power outage, just offload my home battery into EV or one EV into another. (there's a recent hacker showing unmodified Model Y energy dumping into Powerwall: https://zecar.com/reviews/tesla-model-y-bidirectional-charging-v2h)

Cyber attack? My whole house has ability to run locally, I run my own Home Assistant. (recently added redundancy and achieved high availability via server clustering)

 

China is different don't forget. they have lots of private hire NEV (new energy vehicle, currently vast majority battery) from private hire leases driven by people living in flats. Notice how the queues are mostly same cars? They rely on public chargers multiple times a day due to cars being cheap with poor range. So any charging outage means queues piling up, just like UK's 2022 petrol station queues.

Good, I'm really glad that you are protected against cyberattack on your electricity supply, but the point about what is happening in China was to serve as an example of what I have been saying for a long time and that is for those who have the ability to charge at home, then that is a positive advantage, BUT there is a very large percentage of the population for whom that is impossible. Even here in my city, not only is a large housing stock made up of older houses which don't have that ability being ancient terrace type houses, where the even the average car is longer than the width of the houses, so making even street charging extremely difficult. There are also numerous blocks of flats already in existence and many more are being planned. For instance, we have a large shopping mall where there are plans to knock it down and redevelop the site to built shops with 537 flats above them and there is not a single parking space being allocated, and the existing multi story carpark and open plan carpark for the mall will also go and become part of this mixed purpose development.

 

Currently there are many other planned sites across the city where car parks are going to be ripped up and smaller blocks of flats built again with zero consideration for parking so those people will effectively be barred from car ownership as the large part of the city is already a traffic free zone and pedestrianised. Anyone who does get themselves a car will have to park them on streets which are rammed with existing cars as more people are forced through economic pressures to living with parents, thus having multiple cars to many houses.

 

The other thing that the China video IMV highlights the problem of having a massive reliance on the grids ability to supply enough power and when something happens to knock out that supply, the civilisation just grinds to a halt, including the public transport, buses, trains and the emergency response services, all of which would be reliant on electricity to be able to operate.

 

The UKs 2022 petrol problems are not a patch on the problems that China is facing as you rightly said, EV cars with poor range, which is every EV car currently, none of them can match the capability of my car, to carry upto 5 adults of over 1.8 metres height, in comfort and have a range well in excess of 500 miles from a tank of fuel (66L) and I filled up Friday morning, and drove 179 miles and when I pulled up back at home that evening, the range on the trip computer was showing I had enough fuel left for 705 more miles making a total of 884 miles from that one tank of diesel if I was to continue driving in the manner I had been during that drive with speeds of upto 70mph on motorways, which EV car has self same capability? I don't need multiple trips to the fuel pump a day or weeks even.

 

Edit/Update, Sunday 15/9 09:50am Just got back from a trip to Heathrow Terminal 5 and I'm still on course for 875 miles from the tank.

Edited 15 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

Another example of “the haves” being “I’m alright jack”

 

at the moment I suspect the Bev market is biased towards those of us in the >=40% who live somewhere we can charge at home and never need to go more than 100-150 miles from home. 
 

If the government gets its way and everyone else has bevs then we may start seeing supply issues. Maybe not as bad as China but maybe. 
 

 

47 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Another example of “the haves” being “I’m alright jack”

 

at the moment I suspect the Bev market is biased towards those of us in the >=40% who live somewhere we can charge at home and never need to go more than 100-150 miles from home. 
 

If the government gets its way and everyone else has bevs then we may start seeing supply issues. Maybe not as bad as China but maybe. 
 

 

To be fair, I think the problems in that video were made far worse than normal because of all the bad flooding etc that they have been experiencing, knocking out chargers and in some cases power lines as well.  The whole point of posting that video was to illustrate what could happen in other places including here and also of course to show the real problem when you are relying on a single fuel source for everything, including buses, trains as well as road transport and industry etc. It just shows how vulnerable countries would be to a terrorist attack or even another country like Russia. They only have to knock out the main power stations and then the wind generators, extremely visible and then they could cripple a country almost overnight. Peoples home solar panels and storage batteries are never going to cut the mustard and keep the country going are they?

Edited 15 September, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Good, I'm really glad that you are protected against cyberattack on your electricity supply, but the point about what is happening in China was to serve as an example of what I have been saying for a long time and that is for those who have the ability to charge at home, then that is a positive advantage, BUT there is a very large percentage of the population for whom that is impossible. Even here in my city, not only is a large housing stock made up of older houses which don't have that ability being ancient terrace type houses, where the even the average car is longer than the width of the houses, so making even street charging extremely difficult. There are also numerous blocks of flats already in existence and many more are being planned. For instance, we have a large shopping mall where there are plans to knock it down and redevelop the site to built shops with 537 flats above them and there is not a single parking space being allocated, and the existing multi story carpark and open plan carpark for the mall will also go and become part of this mixed purpose development.

 

Currently there are many other planned sites across the city where car parks are going to be ripped up and smaller blocks of flats built again with zero consideration for parking so those people will effectively be barred from car ownership as the large part of the city is already a traffic free zone and pedestrianised. Anyone who does get themselves a car will have to park them on streets which are rammed with existing cars as more people are forced through economic pressures to living with parents, thus having multiple cars to many houses.

 

The other thing that the China video IMV highlights the problem of having a massive reliance on the grids ability to supply enough power and when something happens to knock out that supply, the civilisation just grinds to a halt, including the public transport, buses, trains and the emergency response services, all of which would be reliant on electricity to be able to operate.

 

The UKs 2022 petrol problems are not a patch on the problems that China is facing as you rightly said, EV cars with poor range, which is every EV car currently, none of them can match the capability of my car, to carry upto 5 adults of over 1.8 metres height, in comfort and have a range well in excess of 500 miles from a tank of fuel (66L) and I filled up Friday morning, and drove 179 miles and when I pulled up back at home that evening, the range on the trip computer was showing I had enough fuel left for 705 more miles making a total of 884 miles from that one tank of diesel if I was to continue driving in the manner I had been during that drive with speeds of upto 70mph on motorways, which EV car has self same capability? I don't need multiple trips to the fuel pump a day or weeks even.

 

Edit/Update, Sunday 15/9 09:50am Just got back from a trip to Heathrow Terminal 5 and I'm still on course for 875 miles from the tank.

 

I think you miss the main point.

 

Whilst the government's of the world financial help is very welcome, except here in Germany where I am now today, where they dropped the subsidy from 7.5k euros to nothing overnight.

 

The main reason is for our children and grandchildren so they have an environment they can live in and dont have to spend all their efforts just surviving the ecological disaster we have left them.

 

On 12/09/2024 at 08:44, Winston_Woof said:

For example my local petrol station fiesel is 134.9ppl & petrol is 132.9ppl which is a delta of 4ppl  whereas it only seems like a few weeks or so ago that delta was hovering closer to 10ppl.

Yes, I've noticed this. There was a 10ppl difference for some time.

This was Saturday at Sainsbury's.

 

@Stonekeeper Thanks for posting this, I was going to watch it later and not post it as I know that many will try and discredit the whole video, simply because of who it is, having already called him a EV hater, instead of seeing him for what he is, a person who dislikes all modern cars and loves the older Volvos. At the same time he does his best to highlight the dubious events that appear to be going on and takes on things that the national media avoid. It is always good to hear both sides of an argument and then form an opinion.  

If you want to go back they just said lots as i have posted for on here over the past 3 years.  & i am not Darren Brown.

The reason being it was dead dead obvious to be as they are saying.

 

The only reason not many many were was because daft / stupid or just not saying. 

 

Arnold Clark was one if not the first doing Interest Free Loans on Used Cars.

3 year old Ex Motability that they had on Buy Back as the person Ordered a New Car at a Dealership which AC would supply and sell to Motability.

That was a long time before the cars had to go to Auction.

(When it was Mini or Metro Autos they went to Auction, new tyres, wiper blades, serviced and i chose what to by from a list.)

 

The cars got mats, mud flaps and well serviced for 3 years, any damage fixed, Motability sold to AC and a lovely 3 year old car was there to buy.

 

Ford & Vauxhall were the ones that first said they were going to stop supplying cars to Motability when the annual Milage was 12,000 miles a year & so many Used Cars were then sold cheap Ex Motability but dealers had 3 year old trade in,s that they had to pay too much for.

 

BL/Rover, Subaru, Fiat and others started offering 12.5% Disounts or Cash Back to Registered Disabled Drivers buying a car.

You did the deal at a Garage, got a trade in or not, bought the New car, Financed, owned it, (Eventually) The importer gave the discount.

 

Motability had £4.6 Billion at the 2008 bank crash and the Government allowed Motability / a Charity to then have the Top 5 banks hold the money and Motability Finance began.  Motability Charity,Motability Finance, well paid senior Exec,s & Senior anything.

 

BCA does very very well,  Manufacturers & Dealers meet Quotas.     It is a caper. 

 

 

Edited 15 September, 20241 yr by Ootohere

Some Companies are able to control a good proportion of the new/used car market and influence resale values.

 

 

Marshall dealerships are Nationwide

 

https://www.marshall.co.uk/contact-us/?postcode=&franchiseHash=