15 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agree with having cars that can excessively exceed the speed limits is not always a good thing, but I think is far worse is the sheer insane acceleration that many of the EV's can provide, such as the MG4 X Power, watch it demolish these supercars.

All the power is in the law and in combination with insurance companies.

I presume these ultra performance cars are group 50 insurance and would cost thousands per year to insure.

When I changed from my mild Arkana (140 hp) to the "lower" powered (170 hp) Scenic the insurance actual went down.

The Scenic has even more safety systems. Will even stop one backing in to walls etc.

In Australia I gather it is not allowed for young driver to drive powerful EVs. We have had this in the UK before with motorbikes ie the 12hp and 45hp rules. The 30 mph rule for "moped" was one of the most ill conceived pieces of transport legislation. Very young riders ended up riding in the gutter even on30 mph roads and i dread to think of the toll.

TESLA issued an update a few years ago which gave about anther 100 hp. Insurance companies presumably have to right to jack premiums accordingly. No wonder TESLA insurance premiums went so high.

40 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Source:

BBC News

More people buying electric cars and heat pumps than ever...

But the Climate Change Committee warns there's still a long way to go for the UK to reach net zero by 2050.

Question to class: With ever decreasing electricity supply. How do we capitalise on this and reduce surface transport carbon emissions?

Is the drop in industry due to the UK failing to keep much of it ?

We do have a lot of warehouses I can attest to. I suppose that can loosely be described as industry.

A nation of shop keeper and bankers.

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Is the drop in industry due to the UK failing to keep much of it ?

We do have a lot of warehouses I can attest to. I suppose that can loosely be described as industry.

A nation of shop keeper and bankers.

The sites of two of the manufacturing companies I worked for are now retail parks, and another is now a data centre.

3 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

The sites of two of the manufacturing companies I worked for are now retail parks, and another is now a data centre.

This is happening all the time, I know of some massive factory sites that are just retail areas. We exported loads of manufacturing oversea, mainly to China years ago, now we are paying the price for that.

18 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

The sites of two of the manufacturing companies I worked for are now retail parks, and another is now a data centre.

There are some areas which seem to be doing OK. Car production may still have a future. Nissan in Sunderland, JLR now we gave a US trade deal and we are getting closer to the EU.

We have our film industry and the sports side seems to do well. Aerospace and Defence might do well but that is mainly UK taxpayer money and equipment for ourselves.

Current weakness in the US dollar means imports are cheaper than last year.

Life is getting harder for Western economies as the Far East and India power ahead.

Channel 5 at 8pm,

Channel 5 +1 at 9pm)...

Electric cars. How safe are they?

EDIT,

Hey hoe, they say there are less building fires or industries where there were Fire stations in the past. More wild fires in the countryside.

No mention of potential BEV fires.

Edited 25 June, 202525 Jun by Ootohere

Well, I watched that Channel 5 program and nothing in it altered my thoughts regarding the sheer complexity of a BEV or the fire hazards that can pose should the battery be the cause of the fire. Just because a BEV catches fire, it does not automatically mean that the battery is the cause, these cars still have all the other items in them that ICE cars have and if the battery is NOT involved in the fire then the car is just the same as any other car and can be quickly and safely extinguished in the same time as an ICE car. Once the traction battery is on fire, then its game over.

I felt that that they under played the par about EV's in emergency braking, yes its true that regenerative braking will also add to the stopping power of a car, but what about incidents where the driver has disabled that or even reduced the amount of regen, as not everyone is happy with one pedal driving?

I was glad that the quality issue of charging cables was mentioned, but disappointed however that they never made a single mention about not using standard 13A extension leads as these are a real minefield and the average person is completely clueless as to what constitutes a good safe lead as to cheap Poundland product which could result in a major fire.

In short, it was a bit like the curates egg, good in parts and bad in others.

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

the average person is completely clueless as to what constitutes a good safe lead

Include the "average journocritter" here.

@Graham Butcher Try driving an EV maybe.

Do you think drivers 'disable the regen braking'? They might well set it to a reduced setting, so the car does coast a bit more when the accelerator is not being pressed.

Lots of EV,s have no 'One pedal driving'.

As to the Regen Braking and a big fat heavy BEV, or braking with an ICE vehicle, a big fat Range Rover say, lose traction / grip, not even regained with ABS, and they are big heavy sliding vehicles,

or even less heavy, and the Automatic braking is achieving nothing. Auto braking after a collision maybe on snow or ice, or a flooded road.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Ootohere

(I've not watched the TV show, It's been years since I've watched broadcast TV)

The physical friction brakes will always out-perform any tyre-to-road friction. So during emergency braking, regen braking would not make a difference.

The only difference is that, if driving manually, from driver's reaction decision to brake to activating the brakes will see EV with higher regen start slowing down the vehicle before foot is on the brake pedal. A few mph difference at most.

33 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher Try driving an EV maybe.

Do you think drivers 'disable the regen braking'? They might well set it to a reduced setting, so the car does coast a bit more when the accelerator is not being pressed.

Lots of EV,s have no 'One pedal driving'.

As to the Regen Braking and a big fat heavy BEV, or braking with an ICE vehicle, a big fat Range Rover say, lose traction / grip, not even regained with ABS, and they are big heavy sliding vehicles,

or even less heavy, and the Automatic braking is achieving nothing. Auto braking after a collision maybe on snow or ice, or a flooded road.

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying. Yes, I also do perfectly understand that some of EV's do not feature the ability to one pedal drive, but equally others do. Now it might also well be true that many drivers who are new to EV's might also disable regen and one pedal mode as they are simply not used to to that mode/style of driving and thus do not feel comfortable with it.

Now this a thing, is it not also perfectly true that at the point where the cars lose traction / grip and ABS is unable to regain it, that even with full on regen, that is also totally ineffective as it requires the wheels to have rotation to work? Therefore making the heavier EV even more dangerous then its lighter ICE as a result of the increased mass carrying it even further before coming to rest.

There is no need to actually drive an EV to fully understand the physics involved, once all grip has gone, its gone, full stop.

The topic of the dangers of one pedal driving and the connection to brake lights not then being operational and thus a warning to approaching from behind drivers, that you are actually stopping/stopped has already been covered here.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher Do you just use your brakes to slow down, decelerate & never using the gears in a Manual or Auto / DSG. Nipping on and not letting a driver behind know you are going to slow down, coming down 2 gears into a corner then accelerating out without braking to get that tailgater off your arse?

As it is it is not really 'Disabling' if it is choosing a level, well no more than switch on Coasting or Stop / Start, or speed limiter, cruise control, is enabling or disabling.

Heavy vehicles are dangerous, heavy cars on OEM tyres as fitted for the UK but used / driven in adverse conditions just as they are in ideal weather are dangerous.

As far as brake lights on EV,s, there are some that do as required by legislation and the brake lights come on automatically because of the speed of the retardation. Braking, without brakes applied.

......................

Mini brake lights come on automatically under fast deceleration, max regen. That is default mode.

@9 minutes. His bad.

It is not 'Barely braking' You are not braking, as you are not touching the brake pedal.

You just lift off the accelerator.

BEV or ICE vehicles and with Adaptive Cruise Control being used the car might well have the brake lights coming on.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Ootohere

I am guessing the problem is that people treat regen breaking as something new, something unique and thus something scary.

The effect it has on the drive wheels is similar to engine braking. It's like always driving around in 2nd gear with much much higher engine RPM capability. Foot off, engine-brakes.

The biggest safety concern is the weight of vehicles. Physics dictates everything when braking, powertrain isn't the differentiator. (just like vehicle privacy concerns aren't unique to EV's)

But as previously proven, well designed BEV isn't heavier when compared to similar sized vehicles.

@Ootohere To answer your questions, the very simple answer is err, no, I'm a very relaxed driver, not in the slightest bit aggressive, I never ever let the car coast up to the point where I almost come to a halt. I do most of driving in the ECO mode with lots of coasting, but I always apply brakes well before I'm anywhere near stopping. I do this because not only because it activates the brake lights for the benefit of others behind me, but it also disengages coast mode and brings the transmission back into play and thus engine braking also works, just as your regen does.

Adaptive cruise control will also automatically switch on the brake lights and I have been told by family who have followed along a stretch of road that switches many times between 60 and 40mph that my brake lights are annoying from where I flick the speed settings between 60 and 40 as I know that plod will often site a mobile camera just past the 40mph signs to catch those that are not paying attention and have not already slowed to 40.

Never use the gears to slow down, etc as you said to accelerate out of the corner, as the auto box does all of that for me, even when coasting or in manual mode, it will always select the correct gear to enable a smooth acceleration out of the corner / bend, that's the whole point of a automatic is it not?

I have always kept the OEM standard type of tyre on cars all year round and have driven many hundreds of thousands miles with no loss of control, in adverse conditions / weather it the drivers responsibility to ensure that they are driving in the correct manner to reflect the prevailing conditions, not rely on snow tyres, etc to help them out. When was the last time you saw a bus driver or a chauffeur driven limousine like a Rolls Royce wear snow tyres, they are not needed if the correct attitude of the driver is in play, the professional driver just allows more time to do the trip in at a slower and safer pace, simples.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm a very relaxed driver, not in the slightest bit aggressive, I never ever let the car coast up to the point where I almost come to a halt. I do most of driving in the ECO mode with lots of coasting, but I always apply brakes well before I'm anywhere near stopping. I do this because not only because it activates the brake lights for the benefit of others behind me, but it also disengages coast mode and brings the transmission back into play and thus engine braking also works, just as your regen does.

You really should try a VAG group MEB based EV, I think you would love it in standard 'D' mode. Sounds like we have a similar driving style and D mode is great. (I know you need an enormous car due to being the BFG, just saying it would probably suit you 😊)

@Graham Butcher I would never let a vehicle coast until it was coming to a halt unless i was coming to a halt and rolling up to lights or a junction, even on a push bike.

'Coasting' and economic driving is just not applying power if you can maintain speed without the need of using petrol, diesel or electricity. You just need your toe off the accelerator.

It is nothing to do with the speed reducing.

Automatic / DSG,s and the whole point, us as suits.

I for 50 years have used the Overdrive button on and off for braking, or used the modes some have B, or S. or tiptronic, even CVT,s

I drive DSG,s in petrol or diesels putting the shifter back to S on icy / snowy roads in or out of town and do not touch the brakes, just off the accelerator and the gear is dropped, 1 or 2 gears.

S is there for hilly roads, and lots of bends to hold to a higher RPM and be right to apply power.

I know if a driver behind needs to know i am stopping and might use the brake just for that reason. But then it is 50 years i have driven with just one foot, as others drive autos, but i just have never been into using brakes. Never been tailended.

Many will just go into D, or use manual shifts or combinations.

The choice with EV,s can be similar to various autos, and there are all sort of types and paddles or none, and maybe only 2 regen modes or several.

It takes all types. So choices are nice.

& yes i see drivers of VIP transport, airport transport, taxis etc with All Season / All Weather / Adverse weather tyres, and reps or just people. But then i am in the top 1/3 rd of the UK.

Plenty busses stuck going no place at various times of the year, but that is when others are stuck, HGV,s LGV,s but maybe not self employed or paid by the delivery drivers.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Ootohere

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

not rely on snow tyres, etc to help them out. When was the last time you saw a bus driver or a chauffeur driven limousine like a Rolls Royce wear snow tyres, they are not needed if the correct attitude of the driver is in play, the professional driver just allows more time to do the trip in at a slower and safer pace, simples.

I know it's going off topic a bit and I'm not minimising the need of driving to conditions but suggesting that snow/winter tyres don't increase safety is just simply not correct. Never mind the fact that the increased traction can often be the difference between getting somewhere at all or not (let alone more safely).

7 minutes ago, Dieselgate said:

I know it's going off topic a bit and I'm not minimising the need of driving to conditions but suggesting that snow/winter tyres don't increase safety is just simply not correct. Never mind the fact that the increased traction can often be the difference between getting somewhere at all or not (let alone more safely).

But I never said that they didn't. I have never had any issues with traction in snow, ever, and as I've also worked on large fleets of buses etc, they were always running on normal tyres. I was taught by the bus driving school, do read the road and conditions and then adjust to them, no problems. So many fit these winter tyres and think that they are the invincible and drive normally. It always makes me chuckle seeing these Muppets on TV when we get snow revving their engines, wheels spinning and blaming councils for not clearing or gritting the roads.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher How many days over a winter did they have to deal with snowy roads or untreated roads. WHITE top. Or even how many hours of the year.

Busses in areas of longer winter / seasonal weather are on the same tyres all year.

Not exactly slicks are they, or ECO bias treads.

56 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But I never said that they didn't. I have never had any issues with traction in snow, ever,

Maybe not, but many people have done.

I've even witnessed it a few times, someone sliding backwards down a very slight hill with spinning wheels when I was able to cruise past them with little difficulty (yes I did feel just a little smug😅😬).

Yes, I don't deny that winter tyres will help especially those with little common sense, and yes, having winter tyres fitted can also lull those people into an air of over confidence and consequently, they can often still find themselves in sticky situations.

The biggest secret to driving on snow and ice is to imagine that you were trying walk on it. Do not attempt to run or walk quickly? The correct answer to that is no, you take it very slowly and smoothly, give your self plenty of space from others so that don't become a hazard to each other in the event that some goes wrong.

The real secret to driving in such conditions is to keep engine RPM as low as is possible and use as higher gear as you can to limit the amount of torque being transmitted through the wheels, just as you would do if walking, you certainly would not try sprinting away, you would be treading very gingerly, correct?

With a VW standard DSG gearbox you cannot select a high gear to start off with like you can do in a manual car as the DSG will automatically select lower gears from a standing start, so just let the engine pull away at idle speed and when rolling slowly and gently increase speed. You might be able to able however with something like a Kodiak with various traction settings for ice/snow, sand etc.

So yes winter tyres can be a positive advantage, but are not essential in order get around, its all about giving yourself more time, using common sense, treating the situation with the same respect that you would if you walking, no speed, slowly slowly, plenty of distance between you and others, anticipate the actions of others, the goal is not to try and be one of the first to get anywhere, but just to arrive safely.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Graham Butcher

8 hours ago, Luckypants said:

You really should try a VAG group MEB based EV, I think you would love it in standard 'D' mode. Sounds like we have a similar driving style and D mode is great. (I know you need an enormous car due to being the BFG, just saying it would probably suit you 😊)

I thank you for your suggestion, but I can't see how having the instant torque available that so many EV drivers willingly point out is there and hence their brilliant performance from a standing start is a benefit when driving on snow without the addition of some sort of advanced traction control like that found on of road type vehicles?

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Graham Butcher

17 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I thank you for your suggestion, but I can't see how having the instant torque available that so many EV drivers willingly point out is there and hence their brilliant performance from a standing start is a benefit when driving on snow without the addition of some sort of advanced traction control like that found on of road type vehicles?

Just put the car in ECO mode would help.

Scenic has 4 different "mapping".

Perso mode is configurable.

Traction control is very good, sometimes too good as takes bit of fun out of it.

Tyre wear does seem a bit higher than my Arkana is both the Zoe and Scenic but that is expected as vehicles are couple of hundred kilos heaver and the torque does eat the tyres a bit quicker.

Tyre sizes of 16 and 19 with not too crazy widths make replacing quite cheap.

Prius added a little 10hp lecky motor to get going in snow in some versions.

New EVs are now expected to not even have rear disc brakes and only regen breaking units which is an interesting move to say the least !

They have drive modes, power levels, advanced traction control, dynamic traction control, Anti Slip Regulation and drivers can modulate the accelerator, and use appropriate or inappropriate tyres.

They do actually test them around the world in extremes of weathers.

PS.

I have read Winter tyres a few times in the threads above. All Seasons as in for All seasons including colder are Spring, Summer, Autumn or Winter UK type tyres with some more summer bias or more winter. Treads and compounds to choose from/

I know the Tyres VW Group fit for import into the UK are there All Year with many cars,

there is lost in translation, EU to English, American English and even English English or UK English.

Everyone is a driving god...

Amazeballs, this Influencer was given one with Adaptive Suspension, well in his imagination of feeling the difference while rolling along.

He is so used to a big fat inefficient sports machine, yet he never crashes and burns.

'AC on is not making a sound', it is the fan speed that will make a sound, or not.

Taking it out of town was just too simple an idea to be able to 'open it up'.

Dum and dim.

Edited 26 June, 202526 Jun by Ootohere

12 hours ago, Ootohere said:

They have drive modes, power levels, advanced traction control, dynamic traction control, Anti Slip Regulation and drivers can modulate the accelerator, and use appropriate or inappropriate tyres.

They do actually test them around the world in extremes of weathers.

PS.

I have read Winter tyres a few times in the threads above. All Seasons as in for All seasons including colder are Spring, Summer, Autumn or Winter UK type tyres with some more summer bias or more winter. Treads and compounds to choose from/

I know the Tyres VW Group fit for import into the UK are there All Year with many cars,

there is lost in translation, EU to English, American English and even English English or UK English.

Everyone is a driving god...

Amazeballs, this Influencer was given one with Adaptive Suspension, well in his imagination of feeling the difference while rolling along.

He is so used to a big fat inefficient sports machine, yet he never crashes and burns.

'AC on is not making a sound', it is the fan speed that will make a sound, or not.

Taking it out of town was just too simple an idea to be able to 'open it up'.

Dum and dim.

Even my 2021 sings when it is sub 20 mph, sounds a bit like a Star wars Tie fighter.

The Scenic has 3 choices of slow moving sounds including a composition from Jean Michel Jarre which i tend to use as a massive JMJ fan.

If anything the safety systems are over the top. A big leaf blowing across the road can trigger the auto braking.

Feel very safe in the Scenic. Looking forward to the Mini Cooper E level 1 Exclusive, though it is my sons and it is what to replace the Zoe with is the next question. Might wait until Q4 when the really good deals should emerge as companies have to hit the 28% mandate. Also finance should be cheaper as interest rates in UK and EU are falling.

Rosy future forever EVs especially in the UK which is the leading EV country in Europe for sales quantities.

I do not see home chargers being hit with extra cost ie vat at 20% or so. Would just charge with a training lead, Arctic spec, and charge at 16A or even 32A via home ring main using Commando socket tech. Non runner trying to charge extra via home chargers IMO.