6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh, I can understand the charges OK, except the EV ones, and here is why, ice is very quick to fill a tank for the next client, but EV, if low on SOC will take a time to get to 100% before they let the car be rented again.

The rules of hire are all explained before you rent, and it's bad planning to leave refilling the tank till the very last filling station, as you are an EV owner and thus used to planning charging stops, I'm somewhat surprised that you got caught out. If you are then for any reason, unable to fill up, you leave yourself wide open to the costs as per agreement. If you filled a few kms away, the gauge would still show full and you would be many Euros better off, they only go by the gauge.

As to racing noise and the nimbus, they must have known that the circuit was there, so why move into a house close to a circuit? We have the same issues in the UK with people complain to the RAF and International Airports about the planes making noises on landing and takeoff, FFS.

Electric racing will never hold the same amount of drama as it is the noise that adds the extra dimension and just the sound alone can convey the impression of speed so even partially sighted people can actually enjoy motorsports.

Sorry, but I don't get this obsession with the shear acceleration that EVs have, people are getting killed with cars that do 0 to 60 in 8 secs, so how many more deaths will there be 0 to 60 in 2 secs?

Public charging just seems so cheap here ie less than half the price of UK public charging. UK public chargers complain of the very high connection fees to the grid as one standout fee, perhaps in the EU they are mandated lower. UK electricity priced linked to gas price but that will change fairly soon. Greg Jackin of Octopus on the case and now has a 3 year role with the UK government.

A few years back was returning the hire ICE car to Malaga but recall there was some temporary road change that prevented me getting to that closest to the airport filling station. On another occasion when returning a ICE car to Shannoni did fill up to the 3rd click as you click as you are suppose to with Renault ICE cars , drove the last couple of K distance but the returns guy got another 4 litres in or so and charge their exorbitant 2 Euros a litre. He absolutely brimmed it, like I use to in the Fabia 2 VRS where you could to a trick to fill up the expansion tank too.

No issue like these with EVs, State of Charge is State of Charge but as was pleasantly surprised how cheap the per kwh hour top up worked out as, pretty much the same as public and presumably Day time charging prices at Portugal. Down in the garage of this hotel one guest with a PHEV was charging up from a ordinary socket and getting his top up for free, probably only at 10A, 2.3 kws but nice overnight freebie.

If a UK government did every try to charge 20 VAT on electricity thru home chargers EV owners would switch to use home sockets and 13A granny chargers so it looked like normal home supply. Also it would spur on more home solar and battery use and take the EV charge directly from those systems, hundred of thousands already do this and it will be millions soon. Interesting development with Ecoflows Source products just come on to market, seems an answer for those without roof or garden solar to capitalise on cheap and free electricity.

14 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What if I mention ULEZ, is that going to trigger another rant? 🤭

No rant, it has been demonstrated to be afake set of figures issued after the event, just as they were before its introduction. That is why the deputy mayer had get their consultant to alter the wording of thier report

@lol-lol yeah that is the real difference maker, there with following the rules as in the handbook and brimming the tank, strikes me that the hire company was just out looking to make as much money from what they see as "foreigners" as the ice cream vans at well-known tourists spots in London.

Don't forget that sadly we live in rip off Brittain were everything is geared up to maximise the profits of the fat cats who will store the cash in offshore tax havens to avoid any of it ever returning into the UK economy and the fact that as you say, the price of electricity and public charging is so low over there, proves that our prices are kept at an artificially high price. It has never been hidden that we have the most expensive domestic fuel prices in Europe.

This Kia PV5 modular van base looks to be quite interesting.

On 11/10/2025 at 11:55, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol yeah that is the real difference maker, there with following the rules as in the handbook and brimming the tank, strikes me that the hire company was just out looking to make as much money from what they see as "foreigners" as the ice cream vans at well-known tourists spots in London.

Don't forget that sadly we live in rip off Brittain were everything is geared up to maximise the profits of the fat cats who will store the cash in offshore tax havens to avoid any of it ever returning into the UK economy and the fact that as you say, the price of electricity and public charging is so low over there, proves that our prices are kept at an artificially high price. It has never been hidden that we have the most expensive domestic fuel prices in Europe.

Not expensive if you sign up for dual time slot usage.

My average price per kwh works out at 12p per kwh and interesting plan to get that under 10p per kwh as many signed up for dual rate ie Day and Night rates where the Night Rate can be as low as 6, 7 or 8p per kwh.

Gas at a 12m fixed of 5.7p per kwh is good to making my bills not to pricey and that is with 3 EVs and house with 4 bedrooms etc.

Just got to be cute and energy bills can be long way under £2k a year.

This Kia PV5 modular van base looks to be quite interesting.

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Not expensive if you sign up for dual time slot usage.

My average price per kwh works out at 12p per kwh and interesting plan to get that under 10p per kwh as many signed up for dual rate ie Day and Night rates where the Night Rate can be as low as 6, 7 or 8p per kwh.

Gas at a 12m fixed of 5.7p per kwh is good to making my bills not to pricey and that is with 3 EVs and house with 4 bedrooms etc.

Just got to be cute and energy bills can be long way under £2k a year.

Yes, I understand about special tarrifs for those who can charge at home, but I was talking about those who can't, and of course, the conversation started about the low cost of charging your holiday rental EV, not your UK rates.

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

This Kia PV5 modular van base looks to be quite interesting.

Yes, I understand about special tarrifs for those who can charge at home, but I was talking about those who can't, and of course, the conversation started about the low cost of charging your holiday rental EV, not your UK rates.

There are deals everywhere UK, America, Europe it's just a case of tuning into the deals.

Usage is no longer limited to those with EVs, or Driveways.

Have a look at the Ecoflow Stream and millions with no driveways, or gardens, just balconies or windows and 3 pin plugs and they seek out the good electricity deals and invest a few quid in these new devices which will pay for themselves a few seasons and that time period is getting shorter and these device prices continue to plummet.

³

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by lol-lol

Ecoflow Stream plugs in to a socket and can download power when cheap ie less than a third of the price, ie 8p per kwh and tge put in back in the ring main when electricity expensive ie about 28p per kwh. System is modular so one can add additional batteries as more capacity if needed, linked to portable solar panel on balcony rails or just hanging from the window.

In UK on should put this device thru tge fusebox but in other countries, and people may in the uk and not bother to put thru fusebox and be bidirectional into the house/ flat ring main.

8 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Gas at a 12m fixed of 5.7p per kwh is good to making my bills not to pricey and that is with 3 EVs and house with 4 bedrooms etc.

Just got to be cute and energy bills can be long way under £2k a year.

Octopus tracker is around 4.7 p/kWh for quite a long time now.

I've been paying £180 per month since summer when my account was at around 0. Now have £500 credit. It's surprisingly easy to overpay.

Very quick search says medium household currently pay around £1,754.94 pa, £146.24 pm.

https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/average-gas-and-electricity-bills-in-the-uk/

I think I'm very close to that, despite powering 2 EV's from this bill. I also think I could save more if running full heat pump.

Using efficient tech saves money, who knew 🤩

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

In UK on should put this device thru tge fusebox but in other countries, and people may in the uk and not bother to put thru fusebox and be bidirectional into the house/ flat ring main.

Shame can't just plug and play in UK, legally and from safety point of view.

I think in other countries, they have a special plug type for these so there isn't the possibility of having exposed live connectors.

Along side micro e-mobility and autonomous vehicle, UK is falling further and further behind on all these aspects due to aging legislation.

I get that, BUT, I was under the impression that we were talking the cost of public charging that holiday hire car you was talking about compared to the cost of public charging here in the UK, not portable domestic power packs, hence my confusion 🤔.

And I thought we were talking about "truth about EV's", not personal preference over rental cars. Hey ho.

Not sure where PV5 fits with rental car though. ;)

I think the “Truth” was discovered quite a while ago unfortunately some people are struggling to accept it.

You made an interesting point earlier about tax Graham. I knew the fuel cost of my petrol car was £0.15 per mile to run, I realised that a fair amount was fuel duty but until your post about tax paying I had no idea how much that was. Fuel duty is 52.95 pence per litre and then there is 20% vat on the whole cost of the fuel and the duty, so you are paying tax on tax. That’s the truth you need to worry about, not whether a lorry fire was caused by spontaneous combustion of an EV or the lorry brakes overheating and how EV hire cars will exploit holidaymakers.

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by classic

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Octopus tracker is around 4.7 p/kWh for quite a long time now.

I've been paying £180 per month since summer when my account was at around 0. Now have £500 credit. It's surprisingly easy to overpay.

Very quick search says medium household currently pay around £1,754.94 pa, £146.24 pm.

https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/average-gas-and-electricity-bills-in-the-uk/

I think I'm very close to that, despite powering 2 EV's from this bill. I also think I could save more if running full heat pump.

Using efficient tech saves money, who knew 🤩

Shame can't just plug and play in UK, legally and from safety point of view.

I think in other countries, they have a special plug type for these so there isn't the possibility of having exposed live connectors.

Along side micro e-mobility and autonomous vehicle, UK is falling further and further behind on all these aspects due to aging legislation.

Actual generation costs, especially solar abd wind, can be as low as a penny per kwh but add on all the transmission and even Octopus costs and you get to 4.7 p per kwh, a, sixth of what non pro active are paying.

Then of course there is the steam turbines that take hours to heat up and cool down and so cheaper to sell their power for a negative amount, minus 42p as we recently saw.

Then there is the clever predictive planning that Kraken and Tesla software does. Given cheap or free electricity in the middle of the day and those with batteries will use less and tea time when the real price of electricity is circa £1 a kwh as those expensive Peaker plants are called for online.

Have been paying £133 a month, but our last ICE car going to EV means more lecky usage. I like to just top up with Am Ex now and the so I get cash kick back. Don't think Octupus are too keen on me doing this though.

I wonder how long the 5, 6, 7, 8 p per kwh will stay as it is an obvious cash cow for domestic users, battery storage people small and large to take big advantage of, buy low sell or use when high.

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by lol-lol

OVO have already doubled their 7p charge anytime rate to 14p (for most users) .

In any case even 24p per kWh is around half the cost of petrol/diesel.

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by classic

11 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I wonder how long the 5, 6, 7, 8 p per kwh will stay as it is an obvious cash cow for domestic users, battery storage people small and large to take big advantage of, buy low sell or use when high.

Cheap times may change. One common message from listening to talks at Everything Electric yesterday was that the grid demand variability will always be present, there will always be ultra-cheap periods.

As always, the key is making sure one is in a position to take advantage of that.

Energy poverty is a bigger social divide than what's powering one's vehicle, that's if one owns a vehicle in the first place!

38 minutes ago, classic said:

I think the “Truth” was discovered quite a while ago unfortunately some people are struggling to accept it.

You made an interesting point earlier about tax Graham. I knew the fuel cost of my petrol car was £0.15 per mile to run, I realised that a fair amount was fuel duty but until your post about tax paying I had no idea how much that was. Fuel duty is 52.95 pence per litre and then there is 20% vat on the whole cost of the fuel and the duty, so you are paying tax on tax. That’s the truth you need to worry about, not whether a lorry fire was caused by spontaneous combustion of an EV or the lorry brakes overheating and how EV hire cars will exploit holidaymakers.

You are right about the tax angle, although I'm not sure about the actual percentage of tax, I could look it up, but the principle is correct. It really is an insult to be paying tax on tax, but that's the way it is and there is nothing I can do about it.

With all the tax hike that this government are looking at placing on the motorists, I think that you EV owners should be starting to feel the pressure increasing on you as a lot of the black hole in the nations finances are down to the concessions you have been enjoying in the past, and to some extent, still are. Grants to help buy, BIK tax rates lower, cheap vat on the electric when home charging, zero VED has also been part of it, even in some places, free parking has also been given. It would not surprise me if some of those are withdrawn or seriously reduced, it cannot be allowed to continue much longer.

I'm also not sure just what you mean by the real "Truth", but I suspect that you mean that EV's are better for the environment and that they are not a fire hazard, to that I still say, let's wait and see what the future shows up on that issue. I suspect that similar arguments took place years ago when diesel was hailed by various governments as the fuel of choice and was actively promoted like electric cars are today.

I still stand by your rights to have whatever type of car you want, be it petrol, diesel or electric, LPG etc and that given time any issues will be resolved with any of them. I mean petrol, used to kill from the carbon monoxide fumes in a confined space, that is no more with the advent of catalytic convertor. Diesel, used to be a really dirty fuel, you could see the black soot particles belching from the tailpipe, DPFs and EGR systems have now reduced that by 96% and is within 1 or 2% of the emissions from a modern petrol engine, so huge strides have been made and I see no reason why the same steps should not be made with battery technology over the years.

My only real gripe with battery vehicles is that I totally disagree with the push towards going all new vehicles having to be electric by law, where is the personal choice in that and I just can't help but wonder, if there was zero incentives given an electric cars in any format, just how many of them would be on the roads today? Guess is just a few, in a similar fashion to vehicles converted to run on LPG. We know that there was a push towards diesel years ago and is one reason for the popularity of it today, so just maybe without governments interference in the markets over the years, petrol would still be the major fuel today?

At the end of the day who knows, only the fullness of time and results will prove one-way or the other.

The thing is, with these tariffs where you have solar and or storage batteries, is that you also must take into the equation the purchase costs and the installation costs of them along with the inconvenience during the installation? How long will it be before those costs are repaid and you then honestly hand on heart can say that it is a stable revenue source to you?

What if the panels, or the invertor, the batteries or their controllers fail before the initial cost is recovered, you might be better off if that happens to have stayed as you was?

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by Graham Butcher

To match the fuel duty would probably need around 20p per Kwh?

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The thing is, with these tariffs where you have solar and or storage batteries, is that you also must take into the equation the purchase costs and the installation costs of them along with the inconvenience during the installation? How long will it be before those costs are repaid and you then honestly hand on heart can say that it is a stable revenue source to you?

What if the panels, or the invertor, the batteries or their controllers fail before the initial cost is recovered, you might be better off if that happens to have stayed as you was?

Didn't you say you have solar? Have you done the maths?

But very good question:

It's been 10 years since my solar PV install, I receive FIT. By my calculation it had paid back initial investment around 9 years. Initial estimate was just over 10 years but accelerated due to 2023 energy price increase in combination with me able to bank those with V2H/battery, plus my early crypto mining profits using excess solar.

For V2H, payback was calculated to be 2 years. on time-shifting my energy load alone. Not counting storing "free" solar. But after 1 year I got battery installed. So that's £800 difficult to account, but then for £2200 I got 2 new charge point installed, so paying £1400 for 2 brand new charge points is more than reasonable.

Battery storage was calculated payback of 8 years, again using only time-shifting energy load. Reality will be sooner due to solar and getting more daytime load (AC system).

AC system install probably wouldn't see any ROI. It might if we rely upon it for heating. But so far wife doesn't like the dry feeling and amount of air movement as result of the AC fan. So now only use it in the morning before getting up to make bedrooms toasty warm. It's purely a comfort addition.

One question I always ask, why don't people do the same sums for a new kitchen or for a new extension? Or even a new boiler, a new car, new computer? Why must some thing justify the expense whilst others don't?

Also, a few weeks ago, I DIY swapped the solar inverter from the 10 year old one to a new one to minimise downtime. Took me ~1 hour including getting tools out and packing up. The new inverter cost £330, could be around £200 if it were single string. It's all super cheap these days.

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by wyx087

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

It's been 10 years since my solar PV install, I receive FIT. By my calculation it had paid back initial investment around 9 years. Initial estimate was just over 10 years but accelerated due to 2023 energy price increase in combination with me able to bank those with V2H/battery, plus my early crypto mining profits using excess solar.

For V2H, payback was calculated to be 2 years. on time-shifting my energy load alone. Not counting storing "free" solar. But after 1 year I got battery installed. So that's £800 difficult to account, but then for £2200 I got 2 new charge point installed, so paying £1400 for 2 brand new charge points is more than reasonable.

Battery storage was calculated payback of 8 years, again using only time-shifting energy load. Reality will be sooner due to solar and getting more daytime load (AC system).

AC system install probably wouldn't see any ROI. It might if we rely upon it for heating. But so far wife doesn't like the dry feeling and amount of air movement as result of the AC fan. So now only use it in the morning before getting up to make bedrooms toasty warm. It's purely a comfort addition.

One question I always ask, why don't people do the same sums for a new kitchen or for a new extension? Or even a new boiler, a new car, new computer? Why must some thing justify the expense whilst others don't?

Interesting - so basically a ten year return on investment... which is probably why a lot of people haven't taken it up and a good reason why all new builds or refurbs should have it as a mandatory requirement of Planning Approvals and Building Regs.

As for "why people don't do the same sums for a new kitchen or for a new extension" they probably do in some form - but the return on investment and justification is usually non-monetary and hence not readily quantifiable.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Didn't you say you have solar? Have you done the maths?

Yes, I did say I had solar, and no I didn't do the sums as if you could actually remember, in my case it was a 100% no brainer as they never cost me a single penny, they were supplied and installed by a company looking to sell any unused power back to the grid. Therefore, I don't have to worry about payback periods, or the question I asked about what if they don't last long enough to put you in profit, before you have pay out again fitting replacements, which just kicks the can even further down the road.

26 minutes ago, skomaz said:

so basically a ten year return on investment

Is that estimation based on buying outright or buying on finance.

I understand the logic in using savings to buy them because it is probably a better return than interest on the cash.

If you had to borrow £15,000 over ten years

A £15,000 loan over 10 years will have monthly payments of around £129.78 with a specific interest rate, though the exact amount will vary depending on the lender's Annual Percentage Rate (APR). For a £15,000 loan over 10 years, the monthly payment is roughly £129.78, leading to a total repayment of £15,573.06

Even if it led to no cost for electricity used , I pay £95 a month but would still have to pay £15 standing charge it would need £49.78 a month FIT as well to still only break even

56 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Interesting - so basically a ten year return on investment...

The 10 years estimate is for my install and I'm happy to shoulder the upfront cost for my enjoyment just like a new kitchen for other people. It's in no way indicative of everyone's cost.

For other people, who does not have any older panels already installed, it will take less time if their roof is suitable. Key, as always, it's the roof, my one isn't most suitable. Installer chasing FIT payments, like Graham's install contract, deemed my roof not suitable.

There's no more FIT though, only SEG export tariff.

There's other incentives: 0% loans, 0% VAT.

Is this another social divide? People who can get profitable solar and people who has to be a slave on the gird.

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Cheap times may change. One common message from listening to talks at Everything Electric yesterday was that the grid demand variability will always be present, there will always be ultra-cheap periods.

As always, the key is making sure one is in a position to take advantage of that.

Energy poverty is a bigger social divide than what's powering one's vehicle, that's if one owns a vehicle in the first place!

And expensive times are likely to change also for everyone unless on is daft enough to only choose to pay the single rate across the whole 24 hours.

Some places pay about a 50 % premium for using electricity 1600 to 1900 hours. Octopus Cosy Heat Pump do, just need to remember to get ones system toastie between 1400 and 1600, let it cruise lightly in the Expensive period and the have it kick in again on higher power later in the evening.

All about paying the fair market price for the real time. Exploit the cheap lecky, avoid it when pricey.

Device can be ad cheap as £14 i have found and that is for a little battery, little balcony solar panel and two LED bulbs.

Like Boxt boilers there a devices which you can get that just pay for themselves, high efficiency ie 90 % replacing a less than 70% efficient ones and one is better off even paying the £11 a month buying plan.

Heat Geeks are doing some incredible Thermodynamics work which is now removing the need for large water tanks for Heat Pumps and tge Leggionares cycle. Game change foe Heat Pumps.

Edited 13 October, 202513 Oct by lol-lol

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The 10 years estimate is for my install and I'm happy to shoulder the upfront cost for my enjoyment just like a new kitchen for other people. It's in no way indicative of everyone's cost.

For other people, who does not have any older panels already installed, it will take less time if their roof is suitable. Key, as always, it's the roof, my one isn't most suitable. Installer chasing FIT payments, like Graham's install contract, deemed my roof not suitable.

There's no more FIT though, only SEG export tariff.

There's other incentives: 0% loans, 0% VAT.

Is this another social divide? People who can get profitable solar and people who has to be a slave on the gird.

With the plunging prices it is difficult to know when is the optimum time to buy though scared mongering keeps saying China will look to increase the margin it makes and EU, rather than UK, Anti Dumping Duty can add quite a bit to the landed cost.

I am buying 100w solar panels at sub £33 and as they are on self adjusting in 2 axis solar trackers they are more effective.

Batteries, mounted within solar generators so they have solar to battery charging and built in invertors which can do AC supply as well as the multiple Type C and A outputs for laptops etc.

Aim has to be no mains electricity used during the day time so all electrical power is from. Solar or cheap Nightime electricity downloaded abd used during the high priced time.

Next EV will have V2L ie almost definitely a Megane e MY 26.