2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Petrol retailers doubling their margin on diesel and petrol sales it seems.

Oil has been around $65 a barrel, which is 159 litres from memory, for many months.

Maybe petrol retailers upping their margin as they sell less as more and more go over to EVs ?

Maybe upping it so UK Chancellor less likely to remove the 5p Covid reduction or raise Excise duty on fuel by inflation ?

More VAT collected on the higher price for the retail sale of course which will help the government coffers.

Interesting market dynamics. For EVs drivers the overnight charging cost stayed fixed on Octopus GO and IOG (I presume) ie 8.5p per kwh making energy costs still around 2p per mile so one can see the increasing attraction of going EV as well as the several other incentives......

Petrol stations have been accused of overcharging drivers after the competition watchdog reported a sharp rise in fuel profit margins. The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) stated that retailers are now taking a significantly larger share of fuel spending than in the past, with profits on every £1 spent more than doubling at some supermarkets and rising substantially at other forecourts. Luke Bosdet of the AA said drivers are “still being ripped off at the pumps” while struggling with tight household budgets. He pointed to a “postcode lottery” in fuel prices, where neighbouring towns often see large differences, with many areas paying far more than others. According to the CMA, supermarket fuel margins averaged between 8% and 9.1% in the three months to June. That is up from 4% in 2017 and slightly higher than the 7.9% to 8.3% seen in the first three months of this year. Non-supermarket petrol stations made profits of 9.9% to 10.6% on fuel sales in the three months to June, compared with 6.4% in 2017. This means drivers are now paying about 10p from every £1 spent on fuel directly to retailers, up from just 4p eight years ago.

Share Talk

UK Petrol stations under fire for ‘ripping off’ drivers

Share via: Facebook X LinkedIn WhatsApp Pocket Messenger Copy Link Telegram Email More Petrol stations have been accused of overcharging drivers after the competition watchdog reported a sharp rise...

Hmm, interesting, but actually not true either, according to Volume of petrol and diesel consumed in the UK by month.

The figures show that the amount of petrol being used in June this year was up by 15% over June 2022, and diesel was up by 1.4% as the graph of fuel consumed in the UK by month and year in the article shows. What is also true is that there is a slight drop in diesel now, but that is actually compensated for by the increase in petrol being consumed, and I think that the real reason for that is the growth of hybrids, which are predominantly petrol engines.

Also a while I said that as engineers come up with more ways to further increase the yield of energy and efficiency of fossil fuels that they would get progressively cleaner in emissions. This is happening at an alarming rate, and from the introduction of the Euro 1 standard to the Euro 6, diesel particulates have actually fallen by some 96% and the same is also true for Carbon Monoxide, so ICE vehicles of the modern era are far better and cleaner with their tailpipe emissions, so is the air quality in the UK as a direct result. Spending a little time looking at the air quality map will show that it is the poorest countries of the world that are the culprits, as their vehicle standards are far below what they should be.

Diesel sulfur content impacts

Air Pollution in World: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map

Edited 2 October, 20252 Oct by Graham Butcher

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, interesting, but actually not true either, according to Volume of petrol and diesel consumed in the UK by month.

The figures show that the amount of petrol being used in June this year was up by 15% over June 2022, and diesel was up by 1.4% as the graph of fuel consumed in the UK by month and year in the article shows. What is also true is that there is a slight drop in diesel now, but that is actually compensated for by the increase in petrol being consumed, and I think that the real reason for that is the growth of hybrids, which are predominantly petrol engines.

Also a while I said that as engineers come up with more ways to further increase the yield of energy and efficiency of fossil fuels that they would get progressively cleaner in emissions. This is happening at an alarming rate, and from the introduction of the Euro 1 standard to the Euro 6, diesel particulates have actually fallen by some 96% and the same is also true for Carbon Monoxide, so ICE vehicles of the modern era are far better and cleaner with their tailpipe emissions, so is the air quality in the UK as a direct result. Spending a little time looking at the air quality map will show that it is the poorest countries of the world that are the culprits, as their vehicle standards are far below what they should be.

Diesel sulfur content impacts

Air Pollution in World: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map

Importantly the revenue from diesel and petrol has stayed fairly flat. 2022 was Covid time so not a normal time for fuel usage, particularly petrol which passenger cars are increasingly using and reducing diesel usage form trucks is only starting to get going with Electric Trucks starting to make inroads on which fuel type used.

The circa £25B being collected on fuel duty per year will need replacing eventually. As I have said the EU and UK are probably both happy that hybrids, particularly Plug in ones, are proving popular as well as BEVs with the VAT on those sales and leases as they are expensive and still will consume petrol and pay taxes on that too.

Not sure plug in hybrid drivers know that the new Emissions regs will treble the taxes on them ie Euro 6e BIS....

These ridiculous figures of 700 mpg and 10 gm/km CO2 will be swept away and PHEVs which use on average 350% more fuel than adverts say. See attached.......

Legislation to reduce impact of...

Legislation to reduce impact of new emissions test on PHE...

The legislation will reduce the impact of a new, stricter emissions test for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles from 2026-28.

PHEV-report-May-2024.pdf

Edited 2 October, 20252 Oct by lol-lol

Hopefully any loss in petrocarbon taxes will be recouped through EV usage taxes or similar for equity and not through another stealth tax on us all

23 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Hopefully any loss in petrocarbon taxes will be recouped through EV usage taxes or similar for equity and not through another stealth tax on us all

Pay by the mile appears to be the best option.

18 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Hopefully any loss in petrocarbon taxes will be recouped through EV usage taxes or similar for equity and not through another stealth tax on us all

We are due to start paying road tax same as ICE cars but taxing "usage" is going to be a tough one to implement. More EVs using country roads rather than motorways could be a consequence of pay per mile. Have not heard any detailed rumblings of policy on pay pet mile for all cars as I expect government will not want to derail its move to cleaner transport.

I will be interested to see if fuel duty rises with inflation. I already know my Night time charging rate is unlikely to change this year and it has been the 8.5p per kwh for a couple of years now and even opened up from 4 hours to 5 hours with Octopus. VAT at 5% from tge wallboxes same as the household supply of course.

A few extra billion need for the government but the Fiscal Drag of not upping the tax bands as well as new taxes such as CBAM should bring in extra revenue. Not car related but the starting level for paying tax should be raised to £13k pa i reckon though I gather it is possible to get £5k of savings interest tax free if one income is under £12.57k pa, all so complex !

15 minutes ago, moley said:

Pay by the mile appears to be the best option.

If, as I predict, there would be much more use of A, B, C, D and even E class roads rather than motorways the death and injuries would go up a lot due to that policy as these roads are less safe than motorways.

Having been in these sorts of government meetings I am sure they are considering lots of the angles. Just jacking up VED to £200, £220 pa or so is much simpler i reckon.

14 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Just jacking up VED to £200, £220 pa or so is much simpler i reckon.

The £600 a year for five years will help

6 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

The £600 a year for five years will help

Times how many vehicles, about 40M is it ?

Some vehicles pay thousands in road tax, cars and trucks !

EV trucks starting to pay road tax as well I presume.

32 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

If, as I predict, there would be much more use of A, B, C, D and even E class roads rather than motorways the death and injuries would go up a lot due to that policy as these roads are less safe than motorways.

Having been in these sorts of government meetings I am sure they are considering lots of the angles. Just jacking up VED to £200, £220 pa or so is much simpler i reckon.

VED brings in around £8bn. Fuel duty brings in over £24bn, also factor in VAT on fuel. VED would have to go up considerably to balance the books.

5 minutes ago, moley said:

VED brings in around £8bn. Fuel duty brings in over £24bn, also factor in VAT on fuel. VED would have to go up considerably to balance the books.

With Plug in Hybrids being a popular choice currently it is looking like Fuel Duty has got a couple of decades of significant uk government income stream.

With our Clio hybrid, non Plug in, it was great in some circumstances ie lightly throttle, using EV mode even at motorway speeds and doing up to 80 mpg. In colder conditions, these hybrids rarely have Heat Pumps it seems so have to rely on getting jacket water up to temp i think it's mpg was actually worse than the one litre pure ICE variant.

Will be interesting to hear the backlash when PHEVs starting getting stung from next year, could ge similar to the Diesel backlash of a few years ago.

But more revenue for tge government when PHEVs start paying a more accurate figure for their level of pollution based on the Euro 6e BIS standard, plus an inflation matching hike for all of us, including EV VED and an inflationary rise in Fuel Duty may well be on the cards it would be logical to assume.

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

Hopefully any loss in petrocarbon taxes will be recouped through EV usage taxes or similar for equity and not through another stealth tax on us all

What I want to know is where will be the "stick" (tax) for emissions from burning of hydrocarbon?

The per-mile idea works (not withstanding rural vs urban differences) as long as all vehicle receive the same treatment. We should see fossil fuel duty reduced but remain an element at the pumps to remind people to STOP BURNING STUFF.

42 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

The £600 a year for five years will help

One of reason i choose the smaller battery Scenic that it was under the £40k luxury car tax band.

EV RRP have been falling like stones and now so many EVs are under the £40k and even the £37K RRP and with Blue Light type discount and the EV Grants can be well under £30k to actually buy !

I have no problem paying £200 a year Road Tax from next year when it kicks in for EVs after many EV owners did the "retaxing" in Q1 2025 which pushed the relaxing date to Q1 2026.

Quite a few caught out with the luxury car tax it sounds. Thought they got a few grand off and brought it under £40k only to find out it was the RRP that counted not the price they paid.

Tesla soon to launch stripped out 3s and Ys to get under the £40k RRP. They looked stripped out already so one wonders how basic they are ongoing to be and how small batteries. LFP batteries certainly, maybe even some Sodium ones at some point ?

6 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

What I want to know is where will be the "stick" (tax) for emissions from burning of hydrocarbon?

Isn't the running costs that you keep saying are so much higher for an ICE enough of a 'stick' already?

6 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Isn't the running costs that you keep saying are so much higher for an ICE enough of a 'stick' already?

I got the impression that you want to tax EV usage (only on EV) and that the double whammy fossil fuel duty + VAT is a form of stealth tax.

Have I wrongly assumed you were suggesting some form of tax so that operating EV would end up cost the same as fossil cars?

EV are cheaper because it is both cleaner and more efficient. Both should be recognised by any taxation system.

If taxing electricity usage (instead of per-mile) I fully support taxing through some sort of grid-carbon-credit based system. Where:

• the faster the charging, the higher the tax because grid strain

• charging when grid is dirty has highest tax

• charging when grid is clean has minimal tax

• discharging when grid is dirty produces tax credit

• charging when the grid has surplus produces minimal tax credit

• etc

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I got the impression that you want to tax EV usage (only on EV) and that the double whammy fossil fuel duty + VAT is a form of stealth tax.

Have I wrongly assumed you were suggesting some form of tax so that operating EV would end up cost the same as fossil cars?

EV are cheaper because it is both cleaner and more efficient. Both should be recognised by any taxation system.

If taxing electricity usage (instead of per-mile) I fully support taxing through some sort of grid-carbon-credit based system. Where:

• the faster the charging, the higher the tax because grid strain

• charging when grid is dirty has highest tax

• charging when grid is clean has minimal tax

• discharging when grid is dirty produces tax credit

• charging when the grid has surplus produces minimal tax credit

• etc

Absolutely on point 2, whack an extra charge on electricity used in the 1600 to 1900 time on weekdays and upon everyone whilst charging or at Home, when expensive Peaker plants are being used to reflect their true cost.

Difficulty is for families with young children who are goung to have tea time then, may older folk too, might need some sort of special rate for them or increased Child Benefit I suppose.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Importantly the revenue from diesel and petrol has stayed fairly flat. 2022 was Covid time so not a normal time for fuel usage, particularly petrol which passenger cars are increasingly using and reducing diesel usage form trucks is only starting to get going with Electric Trucks starting to make inroads on which fuel type used.

The circa £25B being collected on fuel duty per year will need replacing eventually. As I have said the EU and UK are probably both happy that hybrids, particularly Plug in ones, are proving popular as well as BEVs with the VAT on those sales and leases as they are expensive and still will consume petrol and pay taxes on that too.

Not sure plug in hybrid drivers know that the new Emissions regs will treble the taxes on them ie Euro 6e BIS....

These ridiculous figures of 700 mpg and 10 gm/km CO2 will be swept away and PHEVs which use on average 350% more fuel than adverts say. See attached.......

Legislation to reduce impact of...

Legislation to reduce impact of new emissions test on PHE...

The legislation will reduce the impact of a new, stricter emissions test for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles from 2026-28.

PHEV-report-May-2024.pdf

You're seeing things much differently to the actual results, revenue as we all know, did infact rise during that period with the all the windfall profits that all the energy companies had, do you recall that?

What I find interesting is that the peak demand for petrol was in 1990 with some 32770 million litres being used as opposed to just 12891 million litres of diesel with the peak usage being in 2018 with 16600 million litres of petrol and a massive 30510 million litres of diesel, which is pretty damming on the governments as they were hailing diesel as the fuel of the future and encouraging the switch to diesel, sounds familiar doesn't it?

As to 2022 being a Covid year, are you claiming that it makes my figures wrong? All travel restrictions anywhere within the UK were lifted as of March 18, in 2022, and had been partial lifted before that as well, so 2022 should be seen as a normal year. The figures taken from the graph in the earlier article I linked to show, in 2018 (pre Covid) peak diesel demand was 2742 million litres in Nov 2018 and just 1389 million litres for petrol. Now very interestingly, in October 2022 diesel was exactly the same at 2742 million litres and petrol was at 1423 million litres.

A little more digging also produced that petrol engines also produce particle matter, the same as diesel but was never ever taken into account, instead all the blame has wrongly dumped at the feet of the diesel engine. It was not until the Euro 5 standard was produced that PM was actually quoted for petrol, at just 0.005gm/km for both fuels and will be the same in the Euro 6 standard and if you look at the following article produced by the RAC, you can discover this there, so the real truth is that the modern ICE vehicle really is pretty clean in its own right.

Euro 1 to Euro 7 – Vehicle Emissions Standards | RAC Drive

It all makes one stop and ponder if there are not other forces at play here with the push towards electric, the phasing out of cash and going to a digital based currency system, the massive growth of digital cameras for the various LE zones, collection of parking charges and tolls are now nearly all backed up by ANPR cameras, and the forth coming digital ID app on your phone and or a digital card, and of course, electric vehicles have to be plugged in to get charged, so they can also report that fact to the authorities, reporting the amount of energy being put into them and also of course a means of reporting back where and when you were driving the vehicle along with the relevant GPS data so, they will know which roads you took and when PPM is introduced (when, not if) they can automatically deduct the relevant amount direct from your bank account. Online sales platforms are reporting back on the amount of income you generate that way to ensure that you do not get away without paying income tax on it.

To think that many folk were actively poking fun at many of the YouTubers who saw all of this coming a long time ago and were brace enough to put their heads above the parapet and report it to us.

Edited 2 October, 20252 Oct by Graham Butcher

39 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

One of reason i choose the smaller battery Scenic that it was under the £40k luxury car tax band.

That statement alone is sending a massive red signal to anyone with the ability to acknowledge it, since when has a luxury car been valued as low as £40k? I would hardly call a Scenic a luxury car.

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That statement alone is sending a massive red signal to anyone with the ability to acknowledge it, since when has a luxury car been valued as low as £40k? I would hardly call a Scenic a luxury car.

Only the top of the range Scenic now in the Expensive Car band and that is down to gimmicks like the Photocromatic roof, very clever but a bit unnecessary in UK which is dark and dull for large parts of the Autumn, Winter and Spring. Its other features got it voted European Car of the Year last year and owning one i can see why. Not so sure about the Renault 5 being European Car of the Year his year. I struggled to get in the back at 6'1" so I think you probably would not even attempt it.

Would expect the £40k to nudge up by a grand or two soon but with EV batteries dropping from about $50 per kwh down to half of that in tge next year or two, with the move to LFP and sodium chemistry even the mega expensive Audis, BMWs and Mercs might get closer on their smaller models.

Edited 2 October, 20252 Oct by lol-lol

50 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I got the impression that you want to tax EV usage (only on EV) and that the double whammy fossil fuel duty + VAT is a form of stealth tax.

Have I wrongly assumed you were suggesting some form of tax so that operating EV would end up cost the same as fossil cars?

EV are cheaper because it is both cleaner and more efficient. Both should be recognised by any taxation system.

If taxing electricity usage (instead of per-mile) I fully support taxing through some sort of grid-carbon-credit based system. Where:

• the faster the charging, the higher the tax because grid strain

• charging when grid is dirty has highest tax

• charging when grid is clean has minimal tax

• discharging when grid is dirty produces tax credit

• charging when the grid has surplus produces minimal tax credit

• etc

What I was saying is that the shortfall from loss of taxes on ICE vehicles, such as that from fuel, should be clawed back in a way that includes EVs and thier use.

I'm not concerned about how, and some of your suggestions are good ones, but it needs to be equitable and the shortfall should not be clawed back by yet another blanket tax on everyone, such as an increase in VAT, or by yet another tax, or increased taxes, on ICE vehicles only.

Pay per mile is probably fair with a reduced fuel tax as it reflects total usage.

Edited 2 October, 20252 Oct by skomaz

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Only the top of the range Scenic now in the Expensive Car band and that is down to gimmicks like the Photocromatic roof, very clever but a bit unnecessary in UK which is dark and dull for large parts of the Autumn, Winter and Spring. Its other features got it voted European Car of the Year last year and owning one i can see why. Not so sure about the Renault 5 being European Car of the Year his year. I struggled to get in the back at 6'1" so I think you probably would not even attempt it.

Would expect the £40k to nudge up by a grand or two soon but with EV batteries dropping from about $50 per kwh down to half of that in tge next year or two, with the move to LFP and sodium chemistry even the mega expensive Audis, BMWs and Mercs might get closer on their smaller models.

Even so, the Scenic is not any more a luxury than a Skoda Superb, or Kodiaq is. What I call a luxury car would be something like a BMW 7 series, Audi A8, Mercedes S Class, and higher cars like Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Bentley, Range Rovers etc.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Even so, the Scenic is not any more a luxury than a Skoda Superb, or Kodiaq is. What I call a luxury car would be something like a BMW 7 series, Audi A8, Mercedes S Class, and higher cars like Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Bentley, Range Rovers etc.

Like most, if not all taxes, they have to be collectable in that they have to be levied with an expectation they will be paid so setting the Expensive car tax which the Con party did in 2017, and by the Bank of England Inflation calculator 40k in 2017 is £54k such was inflation in the second half of the reign of the Con party in government so £54k would be the Expensive Car tax if at the 2017 level. Sounds more like it.

But then the UK Balance of Payments were in such a mess from then and even now are out of kilter between Spending and Tax collection so all tweaks have to be considered in that light. The effect of the Expensive car tax has been to put RRP prices lower. One could generally haggle several percent of the new price of a car and I still think one can even after manufacturers pushed many prices down to come in under the Expensive Car tax and again further to come within the EV grant criteria. I am amazed one can get even more huge chunks off these massively downward moved prices with Blue Light type discounts but if the RRP is over £40k then extra £2k in those first 6 years has to be paid.

Renault have been providing Presidential cars for over a decade. Skoda,, and especially Laurin and Klement had some very luxuries cars back pre WW1 and I loved my L&K Octavias I had, better than the VRSs I reckon.

Renault Group

More than one hundred years of history for Renault vehicl...

Over the past hundred years and more, many Renault flagship vehicles have served as the official car of the French presidency.

Inflation calculator | Bank of E...

Inflation calculator

Use our inflation calculator to check how prices in the UK have changed over time, from 1209 to now.

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Renault have been providing Presidential cars for over a decade. Skoda,, and especially Laurin and Klement had some very luxuries cars back pre WW1 and I loved my L&K Octavias I had, better than the VRSs I reckon.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing it, I can understand poorer nations having to use normal family cars from the top model, but France is not one of those countries, it is a wealthy and powerful nation and as such the president should have something a bit more fitting. I mean a 4.7 metre Renault Rafale has no room for the extra security fittings that such a VIP would want to require in today's world. Surely the cars have some special features that set them apart, such as body protection, double glazing, bigger and more powerful engines, partition between the front and rear seats as well as extra legroom in the rear?

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Sorry, but I'm not seeing it, I can understand poorer nations having to use normal family cars from the top model, but France is not one of those countries, it is a wealthy and powerful nation and as such the president should have something a bit more fitting. I mean a 4.7 metre Renault Rafale has no room for the extra security fittings that such a VIP would want to require in today's world. Surely the cars have some special features that set them apart, such as body protection, double glazing, bigger and more powerful engines, partition between the front and rear seats as well as extra legroom in the rear?

Macron's Rafale is 4.85m as it has been stretched by 130 mm to give room for all the toys.

Peugeot do a 325 hp 5008 which was not chosen but Rafale was for whatever reasons and French Presidents have had PSA cars, including DSs of course which many say is the coolest car ever made.....

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/citroen/101998/citroen-ds-worlds-coolest-cars

The Macmaster has got another EV 😂.

Nottingham Porsche come out of this really well.

Edited 3 October, 20253 Oct by classic