Many more EV,s towing in Scotland this past Summer.

Caravans and Electric Vans or Pickups towing trailers.

3 hours ago, Dieselgate said:

TBH I don't often see EVs towing that much.

Not too difficult to see why as it seems to carry a fairly hefty range penalty 50% being typical but obviously will depend on how heavy and aerodynamic the caravan/trailer is plus obviously speed, gradient and all the other variables etc.

And with most people towing a caravan normally travelling a reasonable distance then EVs are not really the most suitable choice for most yet.

If range etc isn't an issue then there are a number of options out there that can have them retrofitted if they don't already have them.

Also bear in mind that you may need to plan your charging stops a bit more carefully than with an ICE as most charging stations are not yet designed for cars towing and you may need to unhitch the trailer before charging.

A good friend tows a large caravan with his Volvo XC40 EV (now renamed EX40 by Volvo) and doesn't have too many problems charging - but does comment on how few places have chargers that can be used without unhitching the caravan.

29 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Well then, best write to your fire department to voice your concerns and encourage them to work on solutions.

Holistically, from birth to grave, EV are better for the planet compared to ICE vehicles. Proof of this had been posted many times years ago, it would be even better for EV now as the grid is cleaner now.

What a flippant reply, it is not my fire department, or yours, or anybodies, it is fire departments anywhere around the world and fire research establishments that have not found a way to bring battery fires under control like a ICE fire. Do you seriously for a single moment believe all fire departments in the entire world are anti EV? 🙄

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@skomaz Not ever having been to Greece, I can't on this, but while you were there, did you observe what the average house was like? For instance would many people be able to actually home charge as that could be one factor I expect that could explain why you saw so few EVs.

I'd suggest that out of the cities the vast majority of houses had space off road to charge, from villas, to properties with a garden to what I would call crofting shacks with a bit of land. Some of the older villages had limited space and hence might struggle, as might those in the city where there was limited off street (generally underground) parking. However, where we were I reckon most could find a space to park and charge if needed.

Maybe they are like the wealthy 'Retired' Fishermen in the North East of Scotland who like to keep their Tesla etc out of sight in the garage. No need to flash you have cash to the tax man.

2 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Maybe they are like the wealthy 'Retired' Fishermen in the North East of Scotland who like to keep their Tesla etc out of sight in the garage. No need to flash you have cash to the tax man.

More likely they're skint - I think Greece has the oldest car fleet in Europe and the lowest EV sales (about 2% IIRC) as well as one of the lowest sales figures for 'premium' marques

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by skomaz

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What a flippant reply, it is not my fire department, or yours, or anybodies, it is fire departments anywhere around the world and fire research establishments that have not found a way to bring battery fires under control like a ICE fire. Do you seriously for a single moment believe all fire departments in the entire world are anti EV? 🙄

And complaining about a problem you've identified on forums is in any way useful... because?

I believe the problem will eventually be solved. It may not be in the same way, where the fire is bought under control, it may be new process or on the spot problem solving to secure the vehicle preventing other damages. Or risk assessment on covered car park rapid charging, as an example. Or many other ways to quantify and manage the fire risk.

End of the day, I don't have the knowledge to have any meaningful input into this problem. If you do, the most useful thing you can do is to write to your local fire department with your suggestions. Successful (and failed) cases are always used as case studies by other departments across the world.

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The source for evidence is here Review of gas emissions from lithium-ion battery thermal runaway failure — Considering toxic and flammable compounds - ScienceDirect

Thank you so much for sharing this.

I've read through it in depth. This bit on LFP is very important and probably news to a lot of people:

This will also be true for other chemistries, however, the important factor here is that due to the lower TR temperature of LFP cells it is more likely that the vent gas is emitted without combustion. This results in a greater likelihood of vapour cloud emission and accumulation, leading to an increased risk of vapour cloud explosions for LFP batteries compared to NMC. This needs to be stressed in safety and risk assessments given the general belief that LFP cells are “safe” or “the safest” in public media [107], [108], [109], [110]. This “safest” chemistry belief is based on typical abuse tests (overheat, penetration, etc [111]) due to LFP having lower maximum temperatures and heat generation or the absence of visible sparks and flames [112], [113], [114]. However, there are many instances of LFP-based EVs under TR and emitting vapour clouds [6], [10], especially in the Chinese market where LFP dominates [115]. Additional to this is the emission of toxic substances that also present a further hazard. As such, it is unwise to categorise the safety of a battery system based on the abuse test of cells that do not account for the explosion of the off-gas (and its toxicity) or the influence of the battery system design on failure behaviour. Therefore, there should be a focus within the battery community to provide a holistic assessment of battery safety considering stability and thermal, fire/explosion and toxicity hazards.

As with all things, it's a case of pros and cons. The LFP manufacturers have been saying they are safer based on abuses, but have not holistically evaluated their behaviour in a thermal runaway fire event.

My takeaway from the paper is that, well as with most paper, more research is needed, more data is needed to better understand. With so many different variations within broad chemistries, would be good if battery manufacturers publish white papers providing data to feed into independent university papers.

Also, it's that word again, risk. With critical research paper like these and more research/data, better risk management can be done.

8 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

A good friend tows a large caravan with his Volvo XC40 EV (now renamed EX40 by Volvo) and doesn't have too many problems charging - but does comment on how few places have chargers that can be used without unhitching the caravan.

As I said, it will depend on your usage. If you're rarely going far from home it's unlikely to be an issue. If you regularly take trips to the Alps or Spain etc then you're likely to regret it.

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Thank you so much for sharing this.

I've read through it in depth. This bit on LFP is very important and probably news to a lot of people:

As with all things, it's a case of pros and cons. The LFP manufacturers have been saying they are safer based on abuses, but have not holistically evaluated their behaviour in a thermal runaway fire event.

My takeaway from the paper is that, well as with most paper, more research is needed, more data is needed to better understand. With so many different variations within broad chemistries, would be good if battery manufacturers publish white papers providing data to feed into independent university papers.

Also, it's that word again, risk. With critical research paper like these and more research/data, better risk management can be done.

Never smelt any gases from any of the numerous lithium or lithium iron phosphate batteries I have. Never had any problem with any of the BMSs which all seem to work well without any overheating. I have little lithium batteries of 5 wh righ up to ones of 2 kwh. All have worked faultlessly over the upto to 5 years I have had them include the ultra large car ones.

Charging lead acid batteries I have detected the smell of the gases produced when charging and they are most unpleasant. It is shame most EVs still have lead acid 12v batteries. I gather Tesla have gone to lithium batteries for their 12v system and even plan to go to 48v architecture for their ancillary services. I concerted my Yamaha R3 bike to a lithium battery from the lead acid and i expect this is what most race and high performance vehicles do.

12v lead acid batteries is one of the weakest links in EVs as it is with ICE cars. Hopefully we will be able to banish lead acid batteries as we also do with ICE engines (maybe a small single cylinder range extended engine there is a bit of a case for) si it is lithium, LFP, Sodium batteries for both traction and ancillaries systems and get rid of this 19th century tech of internal combustion and lead batteries in favour of 21 st century tech which is safer, reliable and cleaner.

@lol-lol you shouldn't have ever been able to smell gases from your batteries, under normal use. If you had watched some of the videos I have posted before you'd have known that much at least. It is only when they are in thermal runaway that they produce gas and the gas builds up under pressure within the battery casing. This pressure then manages to break the seals around the sides of that case and escapes. The friction created adds extra heat into the gas which then self ignites (petrol and diesel do not self ignite, they require external ignition sources), and produces the blow torch jets of fire emitted low down around doorsill level and can be a metre or 2 long, hence why charging bays are marked out very wide, extra fire gap. In the case of EV batteries, the BMS systems are located in the battery casing beneath the car so again, you don't know if they are getting hot or not.

Like you and all of us, I have many Li-ion batteries myself in various power tools etc and never had any issues.

The lead acid battery is not a major problem, yes the gas when charging is explosive (hydrogen) but these days the batteries are sealed and because most are of the SS type gel replaces the acid, are not a problem, when did you last have to top the levels in your battery with distilled water?

The problem with EV batteries is that they contain 100s of times greater energy than even the largest 24v batteries fitted to trucks. Not only that, but they can deliver that energy over a sustained period of time, lead acid cannot.

By the time you smell gases given off by a EV battery, it is already too late, the battery is in runaway mode and can burst into fire in a split second.

The higher the voltage of a battery, the greater risk there is. Like, there is a higher risk of a leak with a high pressure hydraulic pipe then an unpressurised pipe. You need to understand that voltage is the pressure that forces the electrons to move, hence a flat battery has next to or zero volts, so unable to power anything.

Tesla went to 48V in order to reduce the size of the cable thickness and hence use less copper, thus lower the weight as well. I also suspect that the change to 48V was also because there is so much cable required in an EV that physical space was also a major problem as there are so many other things to accommodate like battery cooling systems, pipes etc. EVs are not less complicated than ICE, just a different type of complexity.

Edited 1 November, 20251 Nov by Graham Butcher

19 hours ago, Dieselgate said:

TBH I don't often see EVs towing that much.

Not too difficult to see why as it seems to carry a fairly hefty range penalty 50% being typical but obviously will depend on how heavy and aerodynamic the caravan/trailer is plus obviously speed, gradient and all the other variables etc.

And with most people towing a caravan normally travelling a reasonable distance then EVs are not really the most suitable choice for most yet.

If range etc isn't an issue then there are a number of options out there that can have them retrofitted if they don't already have them.

Also bear in mind that you may need to plan your charging stops a bit more carefully than with an ICE as most charging stations are not yet designed for cars towing and you may need to unhitch the trailer before charging.

I’ve had a look at a couple of electric hgv tractor units and they seem to have at least a 3 speed auto gearbox .

I presume that is to help get them moving more efficiently.

I wonder if a similar system on some larger EV cars would make them slightly more useful for towing ?

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

And complaining about a problem you've identified on forums is in any way useful... because?

I believe the problem will eventually be solved. It may not be in the same way, where the fire is bought under control, it may be new process or on the spot problem solving to secure the vehicle preventing other damages. Or risk assessment on covered car park rapid charging, as an example. Or many other ways to quantify and manage the fire risk.

End of the day, I don't have the knowledge to have any meaningful input into this problem. If you do, the most useful thing you can do is to write to your local fire department with your suggestions. Successful (and failed) cases are always used as case studies by other departments across the world.

If you chose to bury your head in the sand, that is up to you, all I'm attempting to do is for those that are interested, is show that I believe that this policy of banning the sale of new ICE cars before the known issues with electric options are fully resolved is a dangerous pathway to take.

Yes, I understand that these problems will, in the fullness of time, be solved, again this is something that I have indicated before, but we are not there yet.

2 minutes ago, classic said:

I’ve had a look at a couple of electric hgv tractor units and they seem to have at least a 3 speed auto gearbox .

I presume that is to help get them moving more efficiently.

I wonder if a similar system on some larger EV cars would make them slightly more useful for towing ?

Indeed, and on some of the classic cars that have been converted to electric, they have also retained the original gearboxes, presumedly to maximise the range / pulling power from smaller batteries?

As shown in this conversion.

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Thank you so much for sharing this.

I've read through it in depth. This bit on LFP is very important and probably news to a lot of people:

As with all things, it's a case of pros and cons. The LFP manufacturers have been saying they are safer based on abuses, but have not holistically evaluated their behaviour in a thermal runaway fire event.

My takeaway from the paper is that, well as with most paper, more research is needed, more data is needed to better understand. With so many different variations within broad chemistries, would be good if battery manufacturers publish white papers providing data to feed into independent university papers.

Also, it's that word again, risk. With critical research paper like these and more research/data, better risk management can be done.

Exactly my point, I can produce papers to show something, you can and have done before, produce papers that take the opposite view and this is why it is so difficult currently to actually tell fact from fiction and hence why I also say, do I not, that only time will be able to show us which was fact and which was not?

Edited 1 November, 20251 Nov by Graham Butcher

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If you chose to bury your head in the sand, that is up to you, all I'm attempting to do is for those that are interested, is show that I believe that this policy of banning the sale of new ICE cars before the known issues with electric options are fully resolved is a dangerous pathway to take.

Yes, I understand that these problems will, in the fullness of time, be solved, again this is something that I have indicated before, but we are not there yet.

At same time, continue selling ICE presents a real problem for the climate due to them lasting 10+ years and emission from them are constant (per mile). This problem had been talked about many times on here and please refer to the thread in my signature.

By the time every single ICE sold this year are phased out, it would have emitted way more damage than a few burning EV could ever do over same period. Remembering fire events are rarer than mass fleet of ICE going about their business every day. So based on that, banning sale of new ICE cars is absolutely the right thing to do, as quickly as possible.

As EV adoption are ramped up, risk assessments and fire fighting processes will catch up to solve problems you've identified. As I don't have the knowledge, I don't comment on possible solutions, this is in no way burying head in the sand. It is knowing when to shut up.

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Exactly my point, I can produce papers to show something, you can and have done before, produce papers that take the opposite view and this is why it is so difficult currently to actually tell fact from fiction and hence why I also say, do I not, that only time will be able to us which was fact and which was not?

Science is always evolving. Having a paper say one thing does not make it fact as new research data and tech emerge. It is not for likes of you and I (as in, not in scientific community) to judge what is true or not.

What we should do, however, is to take critical papers as summary of research data so far and try to learn from it. It is most probably the truth as far as humanity know at time of its writing.

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

So based on that, banning sale of new ICE cars is absolutely the right thing to do, as quickly as possible.

I think we need to also take account of the negative effects on the economy of banning ICE sooner than many owners can make the change to EV (both for financial and practical reasons such as no driveway parking).

It's a trade off between damaging the economy and creating hardships due to financial reasons, or damaging the climate and creating hardships due to health reasons - neither are particularly attractive options, which is why I agree with @Graham Butcher that the timescale of the ICE ban needs to be continually monitored and possibly pushed back.

1 hour ago, classic said:

I’ve had a look at a couple of electric hgv tractor units and they seem to have at least a 3 speed auto gearbox .

I presume that is to help get them moving more efficiently.

I wonder if a similar system on some larger EV cars would make them slightly more useful for towing ?

There is no shortage of torque on electric motors abd it is more at the top end that is the reason to have 2 or 3 gears to avoid overspeeding.

In most EVs one gear is fine. Massive torque from 5 mph up to a typical 100 mph when the single geared vehicle is quite suited to the massive torque at 5 mph and then the torque will typical be backed off in the upper half of the rev range.

Only really for German Autobahns where one might want to drive at 125 mph, 155 mph on needs a second gear to stop that electric motor going past 12,000 ram and bring in a second gear to drop the motor revs by half or so to allow the electric motor to drop the revs back to 6k revs or so and go again up to 150 mph and beyond.

My company uses lots of electric trucks, mainly BYDs I think. My old company provided some of the tech for Mercedes EV buses and trucks, still have the patents I think.

Of course EV motors have none of the reciprocating losses of ICE cars, ****el engines aside, so spinning at high revs is not exponentially rising the losses. All the low down torque on would ever want and much easier to get the power to individual wheel than ice cars with all the differentials and transfer boxes. Easier to control power / torque allocation i expect too.

I wonder if the use of a gearbox would be a way of extending the range as the electric motor would be spinning slower?

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol you shouldn't have ever been able to smell gases from your batteries, under normal use. If you had watched some of the videos I have posted before you'd have known that much at least. It is only when they are in thermal runaway that they produce gas and the gas builds up under pressure within the battery casing. This pressure then manages to break the seals around the sides of that case and escapes. The friction created adds extra heat into the gas which then self ignites (petrol and diesel do not self ignite, they require external ignition sources), and produces the blow torch jets of fire emitted low down around doorsill level and can be a metre or 2 long, hence why charging bays are marked out very wide, extra fire gap. In the case of EV batteries, the BMS systems are located in the battery casing beneath the car so again, you don't know if they are getting hot or not.

Like you and all of us, I have many Li-ion batteries myself in various power tools etc and never had any issues.

The lead acid battery is not a major problem, yes the gas when charging is explosive (hydrogen) but these days the batteries are sealed and because most are of the SS type gel replaces the acid, are not a problem, when did you last have to top the levels in your battery with distilled water?

The problem with EV batteries is that they contain 100s of times greater energy than even the largest 24v batteries fitted to trucks. Not only that, but they can deliver that energy over a sustained period of time, lead acid cannot.

By the time you smell gases given off by a EV battery, it is already too late, the battery is in runaway mode and can burst into fire in a split second.

The higher the voltage of a battery, the greater risk there is. Like, there is a higher risk of a leak with a high pressure hydraulic pipe then an unpressurised pipe. You need to understand that voltage is the pressure that forces the electrons to move, hence a flat battery has next to or zero volts, so unable to power anything.

Tesla went to 48V in order to reduce the size of the cable thickness and hence use less copper, thus lower the weight as well. I also suspect that the change to 48V was also because there is so much cable required in an EV that physical space was also a major problem as there are so many other things to accommodate like battery cooling systems, pipes etc. EVs are not less complicated than ICE, just a different type of complexity.

Also glad to say my allIgator defence system is working as I have not seen any alligators around here at all !

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Also glad to say my allIgator defence system is working as I have not seen any alligators around here at all !

Very good, my elephant repellant is also working 😂😂

I am not the biggest fan of Dave Takes it on but some salient points here for people to plan for the future.

The decline in fossil fuels, at least for motive power rather than plastic etc, could be more like a very steep slope rather than a gradual one. 2025 appears to be peak oil, gas, coal production and looking like quickly downwards from here. China leading the way of course and expect to see even more shadowy ways Russian oil makes its way to European markets.

Aberdeen showing the way as EV charging company Fasned get approval for indoor charging and location with facilities...... https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/raining-champ-fastned-plans-first-indoor-charging-hub#:~:text=Fastned%20could%20become%20the%20raining,that%20found%20in%20petrol%20stations.

Of course could not really do this with an ICE vehicle refuelling station as it has to be outdoors to waft waft away the foul smelling, carsogenic gases released when refuelling as well as a much increased fire risk doing such refuelling inside.

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Very good, my elephant repellant is also working 😂😂

I like elephants, and Laura Brannigan

18 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Of course could not really do this with an ICE vehicle refuelling station as it has to be outdoors to waft waft away the foul smelling, carsogenic gases released when refuelling

Those gases aren't actually released into the atmosphere... they area recirculated back to the storage tanks via a vacuum system incorporated into the filler nozzle.

You really need to stop making things up, or at least do some research.