@lol-lol Let's get some things perfectly straight instead of scoring points with claim and counter-claim all the time?

Is it perfectly agreed that apart from the method of propulsion and fuel, the rest of the cars are the same, plastics, fabric, wire, copper, leather, foam, rubber, metal, glass, oil, grease, etc.?

Very few car fires involve the fuel, be it petrol or diesel, in the tank; the fuel that is in the tank does not generally become part of the fire. Is the same not true for EV cars? The battery does not normally become part of the fire?

Most car fires involve the actual construction of the car and something that the owner/driver is/was doing with the car? Like, smoking or using a dodgy phone charging lead, such as the time my son nearly set my car on fire with a dodgy phone lead that got trapped between his seat and the centre console, and the lead was glowing red hot and scorched the leather seat and melted the plastic on the console?

Those things could happen to ANY car type, ICE/EV; they are the same and carry the identical fire risk as the interiors of both are the same.

Where the difference comes in is WHEN the fuel in the tank or the fuel in the battery gets to be part of the fire. Liquid fossil fuel: we have had many decades of dealing with that kind of fire, and the fuel tanks are designed to prevent that stored fuel being involved in the fire, just as HV batteries are designed to try and prevent them being part of the fire. That is also one of the benefits of them being mounted below the car and beneath the metal floor. Flames and the heat naturally rise upwards and away from the fuels, so the chances of them being part of the fire are thus greatly reduced.

Now comes the undeniable real truths of the matter and anyone who understands chemistry, engineering, and fire should be able to grasp and accept the following concepts, etc.

With an ICE car, there is normally only 1 tank, maybe like in some Jags, 2 tanks; with EVs, there is normally only one battery (some cars have a part under the floor and another part under the rear seat, for instance).

If an ICE fuel tank develops a leak and lets fuel escape, unless there is a spark or flame in that area, the fuel will not burn, and in the case of petrol, it will just evaporate.

If a single cell inside a battery is compromised (either by way of a mechanical means or a manufacturing defect), then that cell creates a short circuit within itself and becomes glowing red hot, and that will be the ignition point and cause the cells next to it also to overheat, and so it goes on.

Now Tesla's for example, often use 18650-type cells to make up their batteries, and depending on which model in the range, they have between 5,040 and 8,256 of these cells; thus, that number increases the chances of the equivalent of ICE fuel tank developing a leak per car, so there are between 5,040 and 8,256 chances of a problem happening.

I have a Ring-type video doorbell which uses 2 x 18650 lithium-ion cells, and in the last 3 years of owning it, I have had to purchase more cells, as so far 3 of them have failed and never ever become fully charged and also get pretty toasty when being charged, a giveaway sign that they are useless. Thankfully they are not likely to go into thermal runaway, as they are only charged via a normal phone charger, so they are never seeing large currents or voltages, unlike those in an EV, where they would be subjected to both during normal operation.

The next real fact is that both petrol and diesel fires are pretty easy to deal with and in most cases the fire brigades can put them out for good within a few minutes, that is not true with EV batteries (note) I said batteries, not EV cars; there is a difference.

Currently there is not a properly safe and easily transported and deployable method of dealing with EV batteries, that have gone into thermal runaway following a problem, due to an RTA or an internal cell failure where you have seconds to respond, without the added problem of getting the fire appliances to the scene in time.

It has affected insurance premiums, and it is going to increase them even more so in the coming few months. If you are looking for a massive spike in EV premiums as evidence of that, you will be disappointed, as premiums of all cars are increasing to spread that rise about. Can you ever be 100% certain that all RTAs will be EV vs EV, for example? Of course not, so all ICE car owners are also facing increased premiums.

Lets face it, if EV premiums were increased on their own and made insuring one cost prohibitive, would anyone buy an EV? Such a move would go against the global narrative of Net Zero, would it not? So that clearly is never going to happen.

Oh, and one more thing, which has been totally ignored: nobody is denying that there are more ICE fires than EV, stands to reason, seeing as there are so many more of them around and also far older ones as well, which will not have the same standard of car and attention lavished on them as they age and their value drops, so does that maintenance drop.

Edited 6 March6 Mar by Graham Butcher

'Breaking news'. Or just fact, There is no plan or date for the discontinuation of the sale or registration on Battery Electric Vehicles in the UK. But maybe one day there will be. Maybe they will just be totally uneconomic because of the cost of insurance or electricity, Sometime, maybe when we are all departed this world.

12 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

'Breaking news'. Or just fact, There is no plan or date for the discontinuation of the sale or registration on Battery Electric Vehicles in the UK. But maybe one day there will be. Maybe they will just be totally uneconomic because of the cost of insurance or electricity, Sometime, maybe when we are all departed this world.

Eh? A bit early for April fools jokes 😉. TBH I cannot ever see that happening. However, I can see the relaxation of the ICE ban happening, though.

After 2035 You can continue to maintain, repair, and replace engines in petrol or diesel cars that were sold before the deadlines to keep them roadworthy. So engines will still be produced?

Yes I knew that, I was talking about the ban on manuefacturers producing new ICE-powered cars.

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes I knew that, I was talking about the ban on manuefacturers producing new ICE-powered cars.

It will be watered down by the time we get to 2035 if not before. Senior EU lawmakers have already stated that a technology ban on combustion engines is now "off the table," with no 100% target planned even for 2040.

But where they will be allowed to drive them could become problematic

Is there an actual ban on manufacturing them at some point? Is it not just a case that it would not be worth building cars that can not be registered for the road, other than possibly track cars.

3 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Is there an actual ban on manufacturing them at some point? Is it not just a case that it would not be worth building cars that can not be registered for the road, other than possibly track cars.

I think the UK and Norway have the target for none being "sold or newly registered" Manufacture isn't covered.

We can sttll make them for export.

I know that, the question was really for @Graham Butcher, i should have said. The future is not ours to see, and i cvan not understand why anyone with maybe less than 2 decades of driving is worried and no more new ICE cars for them to buy. Just get a new car if you want a new car while they are still available. Last of the last.

18 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

It will be watered down by the time we get to 2035 if not before. Senior EU lawmakers have already stated that a technology ban on combustion engines is now "off the table," with no 100% target planned even for 2040.

But where they will be allowed to drive them could become problematic

As long as they produce less than 50 mg/km of CO2, and not with electric help, with the ICE engine on it own working.

Very tough target and maybe only possible with a little range extender engine, 1 cylinder, 2 cylinder, a few hundred cc capacity. If only needs to be about 20 KWs or less for cruising at motorway speed, the electric power will get the car up to that speed then the little ICE will hold it there. Sounds like the new F1 cars.

44 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

I know that, the question was really for @Graham Butcher, i should have said. The future is not ours to see, and i cvan not understand why anyone with maybe less than 2 decades of driving is worried and no more new ICE cars for them to buy. Just get a new car if you want a new car while they are still available. Last of the last.

I understand all of that, but that does not diminish the reason behind my statement and the feeling that it is removing decades of freedom where we can all choose the type of car that best fits our individual needs.

It has not been proved that ICE cars are the devil that that they are being made into. I mean is it not a fact that life expectancy today is considerably longer than it was 100 years ago?

Check out this government site. ONS How has life expectancy changed over time? - Office for National Statistics

This graph is lifted directly from the above site, so if the air quality and the pollution from ICE vehicles were actually as bad as we are being led to believe, then why is the graph not showing a downward trend instead of a continuing upward trend?

We are being told that people are living longer and adding to the huge deficits in public finances because people living longer is placing increased burdens on the funds and the government are not able to cope with that.

Healthy Life expectancy is down in Scotland & RoUK. That is for many more important than Life Expectancy. Lets see just how long life expectancy and actual average life of those turns out to be from born in the 1970,s. I would put money on them not living healthy or their lives being as long as women born WW2 time or just after the war. SEARCH. Healthy Life Expectancy 2026. Plenty articles published in the past weeks.

Edited 7 March7 Mar by Evolution13

Well, these are recent figures, 2011, and they must be based on actual live data, and I also have noticed that during my time on this planet I've observed that people do seem to be living longer. When I first started work, after leaving school, I always thought that it was tragic that lots of people who I worked with popped their clogs within 2 to 3 years of retiring. Back then it was retirement at 60 years as well, and very few people bucked that trend.

I used to have really bad asthma in my late 20s, and loads of people I knew also had it and would often see them taking regular puffs from their brown and blue inhalers, as did I. Some even had spells in hospital in oxygen tents for a few days at a time; now I can't remember seeing anyone using an inhaler recently. One of my sons also used to carry one and often had to use it; that has not happened now for 20 years.

As a past sufferer and someone who worked in an extremely bad environment, a bus garage with the best part of 100+ diesel buses, all with their engines running on cold winter mornings in order to warm them up before allowing fare-paying passengers on board. It was impossible to see from one side of the garage to the other on those mornings, and your eyes would be streaming and stinging from the acrid fumes. So I actually know first-hand from my own experiences and observations that things are not as bad as we are told to believe they are.

This is why I keep on about the air quality being very good in the UK, and that is also backed up on the world live data maps of the air quality, the very thing that we are being told is so bad by the authorities.

Yes, some of the readings on the map are high, and investigating these a bit more, like the one on the attached map that reads 500, hazardous, reveals that these are either amateur monitors poorly sited or proper official ones also poorly located.

By that I mean in close proximity to commercial kitchens where loads of gas is being used for cooking, or very close vents for the London Underground, which I mentioned before about having dangerous levels of pollution.

In the case of the one on the map, it is an amateur one and is slap bang in the middle of 4 cafes and a dry cleaners and also close to a railway. It is a dead-end street and so does not have masses of passing traffic.

As you will see, other air monitors in the area are recording far lower, as shown in the second map, 1 mile away.

We have 2 choices: either believe whatever the authorities choose to tell us that we should believe or do some digging around for ourselves and take note of what our eyes are actually telling us. Personally, I like to do some checking to see if I'm being gaslighted.

Edited 7 March7 Mar by Graham Butcher

Didn't someone mention fifteen minute cities on here a couple of times? Scary stuff indeed...
NSFW

11 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Didn't someone mention fifteen minute cities on here a couple of times? Scary stuff indeed...
NSFW

Although that video is funny, it does raise a few questions. And yes, 15-minute cities are real; some do exist, and I was actually involved with designing schools for one in Oxfordshire a few years ago.

Part of them is also the LTNs (Low Traffic Neighbourhoods), and there are lots of those springing up, and the High Court has just ruled that some in London are illegal and are nothing more than cash cows for the local councils. Google for illegal LTNs, and you will find them, but this is getting way off topic now, so let's get back to electric cars.

Edited 7 March7 Mar by Graham Butcher

Back on topic again, but it is still bad news for electric vans. Its about time we got someone in power that actually knew something about the subject rather than an idealist.

13 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Back on topic again, but it is still bad news for electric vans. Its about time we got someone in power that actually knew something about the subject rather than an idealist.

Stellantis, (Vauxhall), sadly have not been making good cars or vans for years. I gather the Ellesmere Port Stellantis site is to be grown and lets hope for UK workers that the concentration on a single UK plant, one with much better logistical links, works well for them but ond needs to make market leading in performance and value to keep on going.

Renault, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and the Chinese seem to be making the "last mile" companies, including the PO, seem to be buying in the tens of thousands to drive their cost down.

Edited 9 March9 Mar by lol-lol

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Stellantis, (Vauxhall), sadly have not been making good cars or vans for years. I gather the Ellesmere Port Stellantis site is to be grown and lets hope for UK workers that the concentration on a single UK plant, one with much better logistical links, works well for them but ond needs to make market leading in performance and value to keep on going.

Renault, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and the Chinese seem to be making the "last mile" companies, including the PO, seem to be buying in the tens of thousands to drive their cost down.

Strange thing is, that the video makes the claim the Luton plant actually met it's BEV targets. It cited that the UK government made it easier for them to close it as opposed to any of their other plants worldwide.

So much for taking back control, I'd bet that it would still be operational if we had not left the club. 🤔

PS. Many of the Last mile vans that deliver to me, appear to be going back to older diesel vans, food for thought there.

Edited 9 March9 Mar by Graham Butcher

Maxus vans & Pickups. Many many many of them on the roads. As to Vauxhall Electric vans, it is the 75 kWh battery ones that there are many new ones going on the roads not the 50kWh. As it is the small battery ones are 'Much cheapness' as used vehicles. A bargain really for anyone that might not need much range without charging, and will not be towing.

Maybe, but you can also substitute laden for towing, eg, tradesman will not only be carrying the materials for the days work but also a quite likely a heavy kit out of tools and standard items such as large drums of cables, etc., as well as a couple of passengers. This is why I was saying we need people making these decisions who actually have some understanding of what is actually required and the conditions that these vans have to work under.

I spent a few years working as assistant manager in an independent electrical wholesaler and had a few contractors who had national contracts for shop chains so had to frequently undertake trips of upto 500 to 600 miles in a day delivering all the items required for that particular shop. A BEV would not have even remotely suitable for that kind of work.

Edited 9 March9 Mar by Graham Butcher

****-ed. Those that are. Those that need to go miles and miles and out and about. That is one group, then there are the others in towns and cities and LEZ,s etc. Light Commercial Vehicles are of all types and for all uses. So there is the big picture to see. Then there are those that can use a car / estate car / MPV type vehicle to do the same job as the van did. @Graham Butcher If you had ever driven a BEV and charged at public chargers you would meet the van drivers, trades people with the pile of poo of a vehicle. Back a few years ago with the crap that they would not take passengers or tools and were charging several times a day. There are still people like that, and there are others that have no issues, they work around charging and their break and glory in the reduced running costs. It takes all sorts.,.

Edited 9 March9 Mar by Evolution13

4 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

****-ed. Those that are. Those that need to go miles and miles and out and about. That is one group, then there are the others in towns and cities and LEZ,s etc. Light Commercial Vehicles are off all types and for all uses. So there is the big picture to see. Then there are those that can use a car / estate car / MPV type vehicle to do the same job as the van did.

Like the Evri last mile drivers, who have to use their own mode of transport along with many other courier companies who just rent a small warehouse and when the trunk truck arrives, the cages with parcels for that area are unloaded.

The last mile drivers spend the morning sifting through the cages looking for postcodes for their routes and then spend time loading them into their cars etc in the order of drops. Most of their cars / vans are old beat up things as they can't afford to buy anything new, they only get paid peanuts per item and hence you hear of some drivers chucking packages over garden gates etc in order to deliver a few more parcels for that extra income. Less than ideal.

^^^ Indeed, gig economy, we live in this real world. So as in the many parts of The Real World UK, the van arrives into a town and swaps at the roadside, car park, charging hub into the delivery drivers car. Like with my 2 local delivery guys. The Depot is in the City near by. The van drivers are not wanting the runs up farm tracks, into glens etc when they have drops to do ever 6 minutes.

^^^ None of the places here where Evri etc. do their transferring have any form of charging available. As to the van arriving into the town, nope, we have huge articulated lorries that run from the national hubs in the Midlands out to the various towns dotted across the country and these lorries are powered by diesel. The same is also true for Royal Mail and Parcel Force.
Even Amazon Prime, the driver who used to come to me had at one time a 100% electric van, now that van has gone back to being a diesel.

Edited 9 March9 Mar by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, Evolution13 said:

Maxus vans & Pickups. Many many many of them on the roads. As to Vauxhall Electric vans, it is the 75 kWh battery ones that there are many new ones going on the roads not the 50kWh. As it is the small battery ones are 'Much cheapness' as used vehicles. A bargain really for anyone that might not need much range without charging, and will not be towing.

Absolutely. Procurement managers bought EV vans with little understanding of what was needed and what these EV vans would do under working conditions and their management of the running of these EV vans. We all have been learning and are still learning.

What is clear is EV vehicles are improving in performance exponentially and the cost is dropping Year on Year whilst ICE vehicle spec has stagnated and operating costs continue to rise in real terms.

I suspect DPD got an incredible deal with the Maxus E vans and Amazon are smart people and they will get it right for their fleet of 10k vans which they are moving to. Yes we have challenges ie winter range performance particularly but those who understand how EVs are moving ahead know that the solution is being rolled out with Sodium batteries being used in packs along with LFP versions which solves that issue.

I think Donald Trump deserves a mention for helping to accelerate the demise of ICE over EVs !!