10 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Do you know what cells those batteries are using?

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Originally Lead acid but they were incredibly heavy so changed them to lithium iron phosphate which reduced the weight by about 10 kgs.

Thanks, but I meant, what is the cell model number so that proper calculations can be made? So this is an old e-scooter which you have yourself modified, which, as it happens, also seems to worry the fire and emergency services the most because the scooter was not designed for the batteries that you have fitted and also few people actually have the required skill set to modify things correctly.

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Let's be realistic here, shall we?

Firstly, those fireman ports are only good if the fireman is actually standing there by the car when the battery enters thermal runaway. It also assumes that he has all the equipment ready, prepared to gain access to that port which is located directly on top of the battery pack, which presumably means it is located beneath the rear seat squab. It also assumes that the hose is already there and the pump is running.

Meaning that he has to get into the car first and then remove the seat squab and puncture the sealed port.

That is never going to happen anywhere other than in typical demonstrations of what could be done.

The following is an extract from a Renault document.

The "Fireman Access" port on a Renault Scenic is a specialized safety feature on the electric versions of the car (such as the E-Tech) designed to allow firefighters to flood the battery compartment and stop thermal runaway in minutes.

It is typically integrated directly into the top of the high-voltage battery casing. Under normal circumstances, it is completely sealed and hidden. In the event of an emergency, firefighters use the pressure of a high-power water hose to rupture a specialized disc on the casing, which gives them direct access to spray water onto the battery cells.

A video made by Renault follows lower down, which shows water and not foam. Water cools down the thermal runaway (assuming the points I raise above; in reality, it is going to take the firefighters, at best, many minutes to arrive at the scene of an EV in thermal runaway, at which point the entire car will be engulfed in flames, so there is no way they are going to be able to do what they show in the video. Fire blankets also do not put out the fire; they help prevent it spreading to surrounding cars, etc. That is all. And this again relies on the firefighters already being present at the moment the battery becomes a problem.

Currently, at this moment in time, anything else is just not possible, and anyone believing anything else is burying their head in the sand and denying the truth.

Yes its quite an ask for firemen to utilise the input port to the battery pack.

Renault did this on their own, presumably with Nissan and Alpine.

It of course needs several organisations to get this better, the EU, fire fighting organisation and manufacturers.

I can see that eventually there will be an onboard fire surpression system on BEVs and PHEVs.

13 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Yes its quite an ask for firemen to utilise the input port to the battery pack.

Renault did this on their own, presumably with Nissan and Alpine.

It of course needs several organisations to get this better, the EU, fire fighting organisation and manufacturers.

I can see that eventually there will be an onboard fire surpression system on BEVs and PHEVs.

I do as well, but before that can happen, they have still to find that mythical magic bullet. While LFP does help, they can and do burn but need a higher temp first. They do however emit more deadly gasses apparently.

What, £33,000 for a replacement battery?

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

What, £33,000 for a replacement battery?

Is not the Explorer a VW MEB platformed car ?

Dont know if it modular like many EVs that can just have one or so the offending packs replaced.

Renault UK has about a dozen specialist places that can do this and then there are independents like Cleverly.

@lol-lol I think you are right about it being a VW platform, just as the new Capri is as well.

It is not anything to do with cells or packs if the cooling system is below them and the bottom skin.

39 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

It is not anything to do with cells or packs if the cooling system is below them and the bottom skin.

Yes, sadly though, not everyone fully understands just how these batteries work; they are even more complex than a combustion engine.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, sadly though, not everyone fully understands just how these batteries work; they are even more complex than a combustion engine.

The whole battery pack and the BMS as well as efficiently using any Regen system as well. My lad justvwantvto drive the car. More important setting up the phone and the Apps.

That's fair enough.

I charged the Scenic to 100 % couple days ago and it did the cell balancing and it seemed to give ne as much ad 10 miles extra range.

Even with a Heat Pump the 5 and Scenic love these warm temperatures but lose a big chunk in the depths of winter. ICE vehicles, due to their relatively low efficiency have masses of waste heat to keep occupants warm without suffering much lower MPG, once the cooling water is up to temp of course.

With all the heat waves due we can probably expect another even bigger push for EVs. I would notvbe surprised to see 100k extra deaths attributed to climate change, much more than the 2003 death toll sadly.

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The whole battery pack and the BMS as well as efficiently using any Regen system as well. My lad justvwantvto drive the car. More important setting up the phone and the Apps.

That's fair enough.

I charged the Scenic to 100 % couple days ago and it did the cell balancing and it seemed to give ne as much ad 10 miles extra range.

Even with a Heat Pump the 5 and Scenic love these warm temperatures but lose a big chunk in the depths of winter. ICE vehicles, due to their relatively low efficiency have masses of waste heat to keep occupants warm without suffering much lower MPG, once the cooling water is up to temp of course.

With all the heat waves due we can probably expect another even bigger push for EVs. I would notvbe surprised to see 100k extra deaths attributed to climate change, much more than the 2003 death toll sadly.

What, 100k deaths in the UK? My, you're a doom-and-gloom merchant 😉.

So far we have, I think, 18 dead, but we always get some deaths during the summer months of the elderly who suffer with heat anyway; that's a given, sadly. The 18, as far as I can tell, are not elderly but teenagers who have been swimming in open water and are more likely to have been diving and struck submerged objects. MSM have been issuing warnings not to go swimming in open water anyway. So you're predicting over another 99,982 in the rest of summer; I can't see that personally.

The difference with an ICE car in winter is that like the BEVs, there will be drop in range but nowhere near the 30 to 40% drop that BEVs suffer and the waste product of combustion will heat the cabin at no extra cost or loss of range, unlike BEVs who must decide between maximising range or being warm and comfortable.

My diesel is actually improving its range as I'm currently using additives to clean the fuel lines and injectors which has added another 30 to 40 miles to each full tank of diesel and more if I do long runs, even with the AC on full.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What, 100k deaths in the UK? My, you're a doom-and-gloom merchant 😉.

So far we have, I think, 18 dead, but we always get some deaths during the summer months of the elderly who suffer with heat anyway; that's a given, sadly. The 18, as far as I can tell, are not elderly but teenagers who have been swimming in open water and are more likely to have been diving and struck submerged objects. MSM have been issuing warnings not to go swimming in open water anyway. So you're predicting over another 99,982 in the rest of summer; I can't see that personally.

The difference with an ICE car in winter is that like the BEVs, there will be drop in range but nowhere near the 30 to 40% drop that BEVs suffer and the waste product of combustion will heat the cabin at no extra cost or loss of range, unlike BEVs who must decide between maximising range or being warm and comfortable.

My diesel is actually improving its range as I'm currently using additives to clean the fuel lines and injectors which has added another 30 to 40 miles to each full tank of diesel and more if I do long runs, even with the AC on full.

100k extra deaths across Europe i reckon. There were 70k extra deaths in the 2003 of which 2k were UK butvibthink that will be much higher tgan then as the Heat Dome is larger this time.

BEVs are improving their range ie not so much dip as battery cehistry improves and its looking like sodium cells will help here. Maybe all sodium or maybe a mixture of lithium and sodium. Even my two smaller battery choices with the R5 and Scenic the range had not really effected my journeys times much at all and the big fall in charging costs mean if I have to add 5 or 10 minutes to the journey I am comforted by the super liwcrunning cost to what I use to pay and that was when i had a company fuel card and the EVs are still way cheaper, home charging benefit accepted is a fortunate situation eben more so that my wallboxes were subsided for one and a freebie with the car with the other.

Still dont know the full real range of either car but i will explore that in the coming months.

More drowning very likely. As to the heatwave, very very much in the southern UK at present as far as very high temps. More like into the 20,s and higher 20,s for a few days as you get further north. @lol-lol Are people really inclined to go shopping for cars where it is really hot as it is some places at the moment?

15 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

More drowning very likely. As to the heatwave, very very much in the southern UK at present as far as very high temps. More like into the 20,s and higher 20,s for a few days as you get further north. @lol-lol Are people really inclined to go shopping for cars where it is really hot as it is some places at the moment?

Most deaths are old and young who don't regulate their core temp.

Seen a few cars , who should gace air con driving along with 4 windows open so presumably their air-conditioning gas level etc not working.

Maybe a few car sales as people ditch cars with no or poor ac for cars with good ac and I expect you remember most cars did not have AC. Horrendous time for those stuck in the M25 road closure and ten needed rescuing. Recall similar happening to me and I was in the middle of the Thames crossing bridge, 40c showing on the car thermometer. Scarry, like a scene from Falling Down.

On other news I see oil price for August delivery is below the pre ME war price so perhaps the EV honeymoon will pause, at least until EV incentives are further enhanced to further progress the transition to low carbon transport to slow climate change ?

^^^ Doomed all doomed. I have fully working AC (Maybe 14*oC is the coolest the air comes out at.) and still had the windows open when it was 29*oC. Because fresh flowing air is nice. Wind deflectors fitted. But sometimes in town i have my window all the way down.

Edited 25 June25 Jun by Evolution13

2 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

^^^ Doomed all doomed. I have fully working AC and still had the windows open when it was 29*oC. Because fresh flowing air is nice. Wind deflectors fitted. But sometimes in town i have my window all the way down.

I wish I was living close to the sea like I use to but Worcestershire had over 33C yesterday and 34 predicted for today.

Bought one of those £200 mobile air con units, 7000 BTU, and that is working well but the window kits are not great with windows that open on the side rather than from the bottom which would work better.

Trips abroad down to South Wales are nice in the Scenic and I thought energy consumption wax brilliant. Clearly heat pump / air con works better in heat than cold. Did the usual 68 miles to South Wales and still had well over 200 miles range showing in a car with WLTP of 267 miles. Same sized battery pack in the new Megane up to 67 KWh I see as the pace of battery improvement goes at pace.

6 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

^^^ Doomed all doomed. I have fully working AC and still had the windows open when it was 29*oC. Because fresh flowing air is nice. Wind deflectors fitted. But sometimes in town i have my window all the way down.

In truth, however, cars are far more efficient with the windows closed and the AC cranked all the way up. Having windows open while driving imposes a far higher amount of drag on the car and hence higher consumption, regardless of what type of powerplant it has.

I think that some people just can't believe that, regardless of their age, etc. I know of people far younger than me, with a university education, who have their windows open, rather than use the aircon because they believe the misinformation that it robs engine power so must cost more.

I remember back in the 70s and 80s, when many cars would have their back windows forced out with the pressure inside coming from being driven too fast with windows open.

11 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I wish I was living close to the sea like I use to but Worcestershire had over 33C yesterday and 34 predicted for today.

Distance from the sea does not equate to higher temperatures; the hottest spot in the UK yesterday was Gosport.

Edited 25 June25 Jun by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher Pickup truck doing 27 mpg and really windows up or down or AC at coolest makes no difference for cost of running. And for an EV i have done 170 miles yesterday for £9 and still have 30 miles left. If i want the windows open or the dogs do to smell what ever smells there are then i could not care about efficiency. Hot road surfaces, all season tyres fitted. If hypermilling is the mission then yes it matters. As it is EV chargers seem to be getting even more plentiful and pretty devoid of users. Likely because of the ridiculous cost to charge at many of them.

Edited 25 June25 Jun by Evolution13

'Many cars with rear windows forced out in the 1970,s & 80,s because of the pressure inside!' Love it, must be a south thing and motorways. I worked in garages in the 1970,s and 80,s and forced out rear windows was never an issue.

4 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

'Many cars with rear windows forced out in the 1970,s & 80,s because of the pressure inside!' Love it, must be a south thing and motorways. I worked in garages in the 1970,s and 80,s and forced out rear windows was never an issue.

Well it was a thing. I think it started with Vauxhall Vivas in the early days when started glueing the back window and windscreens on rather than using rubber with wedging bead that been used for years. It happened more on motorways, which of course you probably never had up North at the time this was happening.

Edited 25 June25 Jun by Graham Butcher

Have to close my windows. What a smell of BS.

33 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

@Graham Butcher Pickup truck doing 27 mpg and really windows up or down or AC at coolest makes no difference for cost of running. And for an EV i have done 170 miles yesterday for £9 and still have 30 miles left. If i want the windows open or the dogs do to smell what ever smells there are then i could not care about efficiency. Hot road surfaces, all season tyres fitted. If hypermilling is the mission then yes it matters. As it is EV chargers seem to be getting even more plentiful and pretty devoid of users. Likely because of the ridiculous cost to charge at many of them.

Please don't think I was referring to you in that post, I was not. I said younger, much younger. One such person is a family friend, a well known TV football commentator who swears that he is doing the right thing, even though it has been proven.

49 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Distance from the sea does equate to higher temperatures; the hottest spot in the UK yesterday was Gosport.

I know, weird, still has to be verified but that seemed strange.

We are nestled here with the Welsh mountains to the West. I remember the physical geography saying about the sea moderating temperatures.

Much more severe in places like central Asia and of course Canada and the US where the Rockies abd the Apalacha mountains create a corridor for low winter temps and high summer temps.

Midlands has the second lowest regional temps after northern Scotland. Wr got down to nearly minus 20 in 2010 whilst we get 35c plus so a 55c temperature rangecis probably the biggest margin in the UK.

Edited 25 June25 Jun by lol-lol

24 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Have to close my windows. What a smell of BS.

Well, just because you never had it happen in Scotland does not mean it was not a thing. I have tried to Google it but have not found any real answer to that. But it has been happening to McLaren 765LTs apparently and been the subject of a recall, so it is not an unknown thing, even with today's modern cars.

McLaren recalls 765LT because the rear window could fly off | Driving

I did find this AI answer, though.

AI Overview

In the 1970s and 1980s, as automakers transitioned from traditional rubber gaskets to glued-in (bonded) glass, early adhesives frequently failed to hold. When the cabin was sealed and doors were slammed, air pressure and twisting body flex would force rear windows (and windshields) to pop out completely.

Some famous vehicles—and specific manufacturing issues—highlight this transition:

• Rover SD1 (1976): Widely celebrated as one of the first production cars to adopt bonded windscreens in the UK. Early models were plagued by structural flexing, poor-quality early urethane adhesives, and improperly primed bonding surfaces. This combination often resulted in the screens simply popping out under pressure or stress. [1, 2]

• TVR Tasmin (1980): Known as one of the first production cars in the world to heavily incorporate a bonded glass design (both windshield and rear heating element). The early bonding techniques used on its fiberglass chassis resulted in infamous issues where the glass would lose adhesion. [1]

• Malaise Era "Pop-Out" Issues (Late 70s/Early 80s): During the era of expanding body panels and experimental urethane formulas, several General Motors and Chrysler coupes with massive, radical wraparound back glass suffered blowout issues if the adhesive hadn't cured properly. [1, 2]

• The Hatchback/Door Slam Pressure: This phenomenon wasn't always a defect; it was frequently caused by the sudden increase in internal cabin air pressure when doors were slammed or hatchbacks were dropped while the windows were rolled up. Without an adequate escape route for the air, the pressure would push outward directly on the glass.

Also, it seems according to the Toyota Owners Club that on some Aygo and Aygo X club models, the rear side windows have been known to blow out; see photo.

So it is less BS than you thought, and it is true; this also happened to a bus driver when I was doing my apprenticeship in the late 60s/early 70s, so I actually know this to be a fact. His car was a Vauxhall Victor as shown in photo 2.

This is a possible big blow to the continuing rooftop solar installations, particularly on industrial buildings.

There has been a massive medical distribution centre destroyed by fire and now a huge frozen food distribution centre is on fire, and in both cases it looks like the solar installations are playing a major part in the fire as well as hampering efforts in fighting the fire.