29 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

why the ongoing fascination with "cheap home/destination charging?
The Government is not pushing EVs via legislation  for the benefit of being cheaper to run that ICE vehicles.
Yes if you can afford the initial outlay and you do limited local driving then EVs can be cheap to run but guess what, the bubble is going to burst. One way or another as the sales of hydrocarbon fuels go down and the number of EVs go up (presuming the Govt doesn't move its goalposts again)  then they will find new and inventive ways to make up the shortfall

 

EVs are naturally cheaper to run because their energy source can be much cheaper and the servicing is much cheaper and I like cheap as it gives me more money to spend on my family.  What initial outlay ?  ONe just gets in PCP like most cars are put on the drive, less than £300 a month for my Zoe but I did catch the end of the Government subsidies for the car, and for the home charger install as well as Renault UK and local Renault dealer putting in quite a bit as well a bit of equity from an old Skoda I had.

 

I do not do just local driving, Worcester to Manchester and back without charging is a regular journey, I think it is 205 miles roughly, summer or winter the Zoe copes as it has a heat pump.  Took the Zoe to Gatwick airport, or actually close by in Crawley as where I was visiting had banks of free to use 7 kw chargers, forward thinking Nordic company.   It is a had choice for me as the Arkana is more comfortable than the Zoe and I have a fuel card for the Arkana so motion potion is around 2p per mile whether it is fuel or electricity and I may get as little as 10p a miles from my Self Assessment tax return fo business miles.       

 

Uk Government, presumably Labour by April 2025, will apply the Vehicle Excise Duty to EV, which I think is fair enough, just hope it actually goes on road improvement as not much seems to these days so will be extra revenue from that, we will see if Labour keep the tax thresholds down at such low levels as that brings in much more tax and UK is in so much debt of course.  Fuel is going up anyways due to its sourcing from such unstable areas mostly. At least EURO 7 is going to force the hybridification of cars and I do love driving the Clio e-tech as well as the Arkana and Zoe, all efficient, fun and environmentally heading in the right direction IMO.  Hopefully change the Zoe for a Renault 5 next year when PCP up.    

Edited 21 April, 20242 yr by lol-lol

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But would you want to be in a Zoe for something 3 to 4 hours, or would you rather be in something a bit bigger and with more comfort?

 

The Zoe is not the best for long long journeys. I find it OK for a couple of hours and then I wish I was in the Arkana.

It is/was a car of its time.  Massive half tonne battery back, not a blade design to literally a block, have no upward/downward seat adjustment is a pain after a couple of hours.

 

But Arkana is typically comfy Renault seats so I would cross continents in that, 7 speed EDC/DSG it purs along, 60 mpg in the summer, big boot, all good. look to charge it for a Rafela maybe in couple of years, it can run in EV mode at 130 kph, man from Renault HQ informed me but would not let me test out, son's Clio e-tech pops in to EV mode certainly up to 70 mph and can do 70 or 80 mpg if carefully. 

 

We just need to get the old cars off the streets which are polluting the air we breath.  Another scrappage scheme needed I thinks. 

 

Interesting conclusions to this video.

 

 

Lets do man maths.

 

There was the 3,500 miles. 

  Well lets say it does 3 miles to the kWh for 3,000 miles of public charging @ MFG. 75 pence a kWh. =1,000 kWh, £750.

 

84.4 kWh,  usable 81.2 kWh   x 3 = 253.2 miles.      81.2 x 3.5 = 284.2 miles. 

 

Winter range tests have been saying 3.1 miles a kWh. 

 

*only 215 miles.  2.6 miles to a kWh.     & 80 kWh charging and paying 75 pence a kWh is £60.00 *

 

 

Edited 21 April, 20242 yr by Rooted

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

not a blade design to literally a block

 

Translation please!

I think he means it's not a battery pack made of blade cells (new tech from BYD I believe) so literally a block shaped battery.

 

I could be wrong though as half his posts make little sense due to all the spelling and typographical errors and lack of punctuation - so I understand your difficulties given you now effectively think in French.

23 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Lets do man maths.

 

There was the 3,500 miles. 

  Well lets say it does 3 miles to the kWh for 3,000 miles of public charging @ MFG. 75 pence a kWh. =1,000 kWh, £750.

 

84.4 kWh,  usable 81.2 kWh   x 3 = 253.2 miles.      81.2 x 3.5 = 284.2 miles. 

 

Winter range tests have been saying 3.1 miles a kWh. 

 

*only 215 miles.  2.6 miles to a kWh.     & 80 kWh charging and paying 75 pence a kWh is £60.00 *

 

 

3000 miles  in a petrol car doing 40mpg would consume approx 340 litres which at say £1.40 per litre is around £477 winter or summer ;o)

8 minutes ago, skomaz said:

so I understand your difficulties given you now effectively think in French.

 

Je veux dire que c'est bien ça!

I want to say that it is well that!

34 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

3000 miles  in a petrol car doing 40mpg would consume approx 340 litres which at say £1.40 per litre is around £477 winter or summer ;o)

No, an ICE will consume more in winter, although not as bad as BEV.

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

No, an ICE will consume more in winter, although not as bad as BEV.

It’s almost insignificant. You don’t lose double digit percentages of your tank range. 
 

mind you it’s not an issue if you do cos there are plenty of fuel stations around and it only takes a few minutes to fill up

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

But would you want to be in a Zoe for something 3 to 4 hours, or would you rather be in something a bit bigger and with more comfort?

Never been in a Zoey, but I have been in my neighbour's Nissan Leave (sic), and hard pass on being in that for its 2 hour unrefuelled extra-urban range.

@Winston_Woof @Graham Butcher  He was comparing with a M5 and it's mpg.

He was just a bit low on the guestimate of the electricity cost even if he had done 1,000 miles of home charging.

& if he had Home Charged 1,000 miles worth on a 7 kW charger that would hae been about 50 hours charging.

 

3,500 miles with 30 mpg Super Unleaded 117 gallons. (4.546 litre to a gallon) 532 litres @ 151 pence.  £833. 

 

He said 25-27 mpg, etc etc

 

In a 520 D Estate i am getting 45-55 mpg. Diesel price a bit more than Unleaded or Super Unleaded. 

In a MINI Electric i am getting 3.1 - 3.6 miles a kWh and mostly Home Charging. 

But Public Charging it is cheaper in the Diesel.   That is because i only get 100 miles of my cheap electricity when heading further and doing 300 - 450 miles.

 

MFG Chargers is just 60 pence a kWh rather than 75 would be fantastic, but then maybe busier and then that is an issue. 

The 20% VAT that private users can not claim back makes quite a difference.

Edited 22 April, 20242 yr by Rooted

13 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Winston_Woof @Graham Butcher  He was comparing with a M5 and it's mpg.

He was just a bit low on the guestimate of the electricity cost even if he had done 1,000 miles of home charging.

& if he had Home Charged 1,000 miles worth on a 7 kW charger that would hae been about 50 hours charging.

 

3,500 miles with 30 mpg Super Unleaded 117 gallons. (4.546 litre to a gallon) 532 litres @ 151 pence.  £833. 

my bad for some reason I thought it was 3000 miles, corrected that so compared to my 1.4TSi Superb Estate

3000 miles  in a petrol car doing 40mpg (I actually average closer to 43mpg)  would consume approx 397 (370) litres which at say £1.40 per litre is around £557 (518) winter or summer(with a small variation as discussed)

Edited 22 April, 20242 yr by Winston_Woof

16 minutes ago, Rooted said:

 

 

MFG Chargers is just 60 pence a kWh rather than 75 would be fantastic, but then maybe busier and then that is an issue. 

The 20% VAT that private users can not claim back makes quite a difference.

Private users can't claim the VAT back on anything including standard fossil fuels so what's the difference?

For any comparisons on consumption/running cost ect you need to exclude edge cases (such as home charging) and instead only use figures for charging scenarios that are available to every future  EV owner not just the "privileged" early adopters who have off road parking.

There are comparisons aplenty on running BEV,s and ICE vehicles.    But i was doing Man Maths based on the Video that was posted. 

 

Early Adopters were often Taxi,s and those getting a Nissan Leaf from Motability and then Business Users.

They were getting BEV,s 10 years ago.   Some still have those vehicles. 

Not off road parking,  Work Place parking, so yes at a workplace, or free charging.

 

I did 60,000 miles in 3 years for £1,200 and never got that car until August 2020.    But there was Free Rapid charging for lots of Scotland for the first 2 years.

 

England can keep putting in chargers, but maybe start generating enough electricity and not needing to import as much.

 

 

 

Edited 22 April, 20242 yr by Rooted

4 minutes ago, Rooted said:

There are comparisons aplenty on running BEV,s and ICE vehicles.    But i was doing Man Maths based on the Video that was posted. 

 

Early Adopters were often Taxi,s and those getting a Nissan Leaf from Motability and then Business Users.

They were getting BEV,s 10 years ago.   Some still have those vehicles. 

Not off road parking,  Work Place parking, so yes at a workplace, or free charging.

 

I did 60,000 miles in 3 years for £1,200 and never got that car until August 2020.    But there was Free Rapid charging for lots of Scotland for the first 2 years.

ahh the old drug dealer approach .

Get em hooked for free then kidney punch them with the real costs  ;o)

Exactly.  As Dundee did.     with EV,s.     Free parking and charging at Council Car parks, and elsewhere.  Those days are gone. 

 

Also happens to be seemingly Drug Death Capital of Europe.     Maybe some of those with Money to Launder put money in Taxi Businesses and Night Clubs, Football Clubs and Karting Tracks, Care Homes etc.

 

After all the Tyre & Exhaust Centres and Car Dealerships were where they had done it for decades.     Scotland leads the way in Organised Crime & Drugs.

Scotland wide that is.  Maybe just Dundee learns fast then gets on with things....

 

Not that those at the top drive EV,s.  , well not unless that are under a the Coat of Invisibility. 

Too easily tracked remotely.   

But then just move stuff about in the commercial Cars & Vans.  Fast Food, Home Deliveries, Boiler Servicing etc.  House to House deliveries.

 

Local Authorities should lead the way.

Government Agencies should be the first to be Greener. 

Edited 22 April, 20242 yr by Rooted

12 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

It’s almost insignificant. You don’t lose double digit percentages of your tank range. 
 

mind you it’s not an issue if you do cos there are plenty of fuel stations around and it only takes a few minutes to fill up

 

And even more de minimus on a diesel engine where there is no enrichment as soon as the compression ignition cycle is self sustaining, that is why diesels were always massively more economical than petrol engines on short urban journeys especially winter ones, EU5 and DPF's put the boot into that though, the extra fuel economy remains but the consequential costs of an obstructed DPF matrix well outweigh it.

24 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

And even more de minimus on a diesel engine where there is no enrichment as soon as the compression ignition cycle is self sustaining, that is why diesels were always massively more economical than petrol engines on short urban journeys especially winter ones, EU5 and DPF's put the boot into that though, the extra fuel economy remains but the consequential costs of an obstructed DPF matrix well outweigh it.

 

Actually it's down to compression ratios and max temperature and ambient, in Kelvin of course rather than C or F.  Assuming perfect or semi perfect gas, not too much water vapour if I remember my BSc Thermodynamics of long ago.

 

With public EV charge points double every dozen of months, people think sometime in 2025 we will see 1000 rapid charging hubs around UK.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/when-will-we-see-1000-ev-rapid-charging-hubs-in-uk.184481/

 

According to this crowd sourced maps, we've already got over 500 rapid charging hubs (need 5 or more charger to count):

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1DOswN-GODssM2XmKV4oQ9r-mkGcbGno&ll=52.183213135981326%2C-0.863469044656453&z=8

 

The golden age of EV travelling might be upon us, with general public slowing down adoption whilst hub building is full steam ahead. I think this is the right way to do it, build it and they will come.

yup, a reliable and robust infrastructure is a great benefit. 

Next they just have to figure out the best way to refuel/recharge in single digit minutes ;o)

3 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

yup, a reliable and robust infrastructure is a great benefit. 

Next they just have to figure out the best way to refuel/recharge in single digit minutes ;o)

 

It's coming.  As battery packs get cheaper and can be bigger capacity to less money plus increase use of super and ultra capacitors, my company been doing it for years as have F1, formula e and increasingly regen brakes use capacitors. Half Meg and full megawatt chargers are coming around in several countries.

 

37 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

It's coming.  As battery packs get cheaper and can be bigger capacity to less money plus increase use of super and ultra capacitors, my company been doing it for years as have F1, formula e and increasingly regen brakes use capacitors. Half Meg and full megawatt chargers are coming around in several countries.

 

or hydrogen....................

They can run Bin Lorries and Busses and Vans up in Aberdeen & in Fife because there is lots of electricity from wind farms not getting used into the National Grid and Hydrogen can be produced, same on the Northern Islands for shipping, and soon at the Green Freeport @ Nigg.

 

If England was to have the infrastructures in place then there will be plenty of Hydrogen.  Then Baron Bamford and JCB will be laughing even more than now as will his son and his Hydrogen Company and Hydrogen Bus builders. 

13 minutes ago, Rooted said:

They can run Bin Lorries and Busses and Vans up in Aberdeen & in Fife because there is lots of electricity from wind farms not getting used into the National Grid and Hydrogen can be produced, same on the Northern Islands for shipping, and soon at the Green Freeport @ Nigg.

 

If England was to have the infrastructures in place then there will be plenty of Hydrogen.  Then Baron Bamford and JCB will be laughing even more than now as will his son and his Hydrogen Company and Hydrogen Bus builders. 

If is only a small word, but with a massive meaning in this context, don't know about you, but I can't see England ever doing that when they see Scotland as part of the union and can grab your surplus.