Ever since I bought my car, the fronts spin up on attempted quick exits from t junctions or entering roundabouts. This resulted in a new set of tyres at 10k miles!!! Two services at supplying dealer indicated no problem other than my right foot, and an offer to sell me some tyres. Yesterday, third service at different main dealer, and technician drove car and agreed a problem, found out of date software for traction control and updated. Like driving a different car, now. Also fixed the clunky first gear uptake, as well! Nice to find a dealer that cares (Rainworth Skoda of Mansfield, Notts).

My 1.5 TSI wheelspins like mad. I put it down to the tyres - Michelin Cinturato P7s - as you hardly get loads of power in first gear (I've got to rev the guts out of it to get it away quickly and then all the power is delivered in 3rd gear when I don't actually need it). Might contact the dealer.

10 minutes ago, gm73 said:

My 1.5 TSI wheelspins like mad. I put it down to the tyres - Michelin Cinturato P7s - as you hardly get loads of power in first gear (I've got to rev the guts out of it to get it away quickly and then all the power is delivered in 3rd gear when I don't actually need it). Might contact the dealer.

Pirelli?

9 minutes ago, gm73 said:

Michelin Cinturato P7s

Cinturato P7's are Pirelli Tyres.

 

 

Thanks, AG Falco

Just now, MarkyG82 said:

Pirelli?

Sorry Pirellis of course. It has Michelins on the back which I mixed up with the Pirellis.

 

1 minute ago, AGFalco said:

Cinturato P7's are Pirelli Tyres.

 

 

Thanks, AG Falco

Yip. What an eejit I am.

My original tyres were Bridgestone, and I blamed them, but the replacement Goodyear’s started spinning soon after fitting. So annoying that something as simple as lack of loading a software update can cause so much hassle. Sure it damaged the wheel rims as well, with the car appearing to jump up and down as traction control tried to control it (low profile tyres).

Common and frequent problem across my 1.4 Octavia, 2.0vRS Octavia, 1.5 Karoq, on Michelin, Goodyear, and Bridgestone.   Largely (IMHO) due to lack of weight on the front.  But I managed at last 18k on front Michelins on the VRS.

 

 

Thirty years ago my Peugeot 309 1.9 GTi would eat Goodyear Eagle NCTs in under 7k without trying.

10 minutes ago, FlyingGecko said:

Largely (IMHO) due to lack of weight on the front.

 

Mk1 Fabia is the same, being a piddly little 1.2. Running on Matador Hectorra 3's, was on Toledo T100s before IIRC.

My 1.5 Octavia can be like that if you try to make a quick exit too.

14 hours ago, FlyingGecko said:

Common and frequent problem across my 1.4 Octavia, 2.0vRS Octavia, 1.5 Karoq, on Michelin, Goodyear, and Bridgestone.   Largely (IMHO) due to lack of weight on the front. 

 

 

Are you having a laugh?

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

Are you having a laugh?

 

No.  Are you?

 

Almost invariably happens across 61,500 miles in the three Skodas.  Almost invariably never happened in the previous Saab 9-5 2.3t, putting 220bhp through the front wheels over twice the Skodas' mileage.  The Saab weighed around 300 Kg more than the Octavia vRS or the Karoq.

It is due to the DQ200 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG's mapping / softwear / gearing & the driver obviously, but then a light touch get away is required.  

(You can put the TC off and get as shift on and less palaver of nipped brakes, power cut etc but the wheels will spin...)

 

a 1.0, 1.2,1.4,1.5,1.8 TSI and DQ200 or a 1.2, 1.4 or 1.6 TDI and a DQ200 are heavy enough at the front of a vehicle.

They can spin wheels on vehicles from 70 ps to 192 ps.

Crappy tyres are an issue as well with a DQ200, or just low traction surfaces. 

 

VW said the DQ200 was heavier than the Manual.

The 2015 VW Polo GTI 1.8 TSI 192 ps had 320 Nm with the manual and 250 Nm with the DQ200 DSG.

Surprisingly the supposedly heavier DSG car with less Nm was as quick off the line as the supposedly lighter from end (lighter kerb weight) manual car.

 

a 2.0 TSI or TDI with a wet Clutch 6 or 7 speed DSG is hardly light at the front.

Edited 9 December, 20214 yr by roottoot

2 hours ago, FlyingGecko said:

 

No.  Are you?

 

Almost invariably happens across 61,500 miles in the three Skodas.  Almost invariably never happened in the previous Saab 9-5 2.3t, putting 220bhp through the front wheels over twice the Skodas' mileage.  The Saab weighed around 300 Kg more than the Octavia vRS or the Karoq.

Not joking, the vehicles have far too much mass in general and concentrated over the front axle as it is.

 

You cannot expect to put 220hp through any FWD vehicle drivetrain from a standstill let alonea heavy one in anything but perfect traction conditions, modulation of the throttle is necessary in the first instance and not a reliance on traction control systems. its a necessary driving skill that anyone who has driven any previous generation of FWD vehicle without electronic aids no matter how underpowered would either have mastered or have a history of crashes in snow & ice conditions.

A hundred and fifty extra kilos over each axle - over 23 stone in old money at each end - will have given the Saab something to fight against, even with the 350 Nm at its disposal through the auto box, (same as the vRS) traction control on or off, but I repeat, memories of wheelspin are few. Unlike the two previous Octavias, a petrol 1.4 DSG before the petrol DSG vRS, and the current petrol 1.5 DSG Karoq.

 

Yes, I know it's not an exact 50/50 weight distribution, but we're not talking about a four litre flat six hanging off the back like a Porsche 911, truly distorting things.

 

I'm sure some of the over 100 FWD cars I drove over half a million miles in the previous 38 years will have had wheelspin issues.  But here I'm just stating what I've experienced over the past sixteen years, nearly 200,000 miles, and four specific FWD cars, with (very)  broadly similar performance envelopes and physical dimensions but three of them weighing a lot less than the fourth.

 

 

 

 

Later - BTW, I've held IAM membership since 1982 and been re-assessed since, so also have some theoretical driving skills knowledge as well as experience.  And no history of crashing in smow or ice.

Edited 9 December, 20214 yr by FlyingGecko

@FlyingGeckojust  how many of the small capacity engines with an automatic / semi automatic box had 7 gears with the 1st gear and 2nd gear being just right for the turbo spinning up.   Did you have any 150 ps / 250 Nm or under cars with 7 gears other than the VW Group ones?

"Not an exact 50/50 weight distribution" 🤣🤣🤣

 

Have you ever jacked your car up by the front or rear to work on it? Any more weight on the front and the things would be lethal on a 2 post vehicle lift, they are pretty bad as they are.

 

I do however understand that with a DSG gearbox modulation can only be carried out with the right foot, on a manual gearbox you balance the inputs and rate of change of two pedals and have some feedback from the left one.

 

My MK1 Octavia had an ABS module that would brake the spinning wheel and it made a horrible graunching noise when it did so, I take pride in being able to deliver the maximum power when its needed and no more (I raced for 3 decades) it only ever occured if I had misjudged the speed of an oncoming vehicle when joining a main road from a side junction or the friction of the road surface, it happened and I would immediately modulate the throttle input but because of the fiddle brake type traction control I had to learn to back off less then I would without the assistance, for an involved driver this learning happens on the fly, for a top flight racing driver its several times a second.

 

Critically that vehicle would not cut the engine power unless the driver kept the throttle planted, it was a good system that would transmit the maximum of power when it was needed and could do it better than I could were it switched off.

 

The MK2 Octavia was rubbish by comparison, there was no indication of it ever braking the wheel losing traction, it would simply cut 90% of the power for the duration of the manœuvre so bad that in snow & ice conditions I would have to switch it off at a junction when there was traffic.

 

In 2 years in the Yeti I have never once broken traction even after it was remapped to 184hp so I dont know how the system would react.

 

I was always tempted by a DSG vehicle but your comments have put me off, the mechanical problems also, a shame because people whos opinions I trusted raved about the first generation DSG vehicles.

Is it also down to the older vehicles without a turbo not having as much torque low end. Is that what you are talking about root? The torque curve on modern engines is much stronger than older NA engines even if the peak power is not as high. Makes spinning the front wheels much easier.

 

Edit:

Even that 2.3t will have gentle curve with "only" 220horses.

Edited 10 December, 20214 yr by MarkyG82

5 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

Is it also down to the older vehicles without a turbo not having as much torque low end. Is that what you are talking about root? The torque curve on modern engines is much stronger than older NA engines even if the peak power is not as high. Makes spinning the front wheels much easier.

 

Edit:

Even that 2.3t will have gentle curve with "only" 220horses.

 

 

 

Apologies if the graph is a bit "in yer face".  Don't mean to shout.  I couldnt shrink it.

Solid black line.  Is that a gentle torque curve?  I think it's fair to say the BHP/PS curve could possibly be described as gentle.

 

This is a quote from Hirsch performance, who were the factory approved after-market tuners  for Saab -

"The ample low-rpm torque and instant turbo response of the 2.3t engine makes it a favourite among buyers who want a little more than the entry-level 2.0t can offer. These properties are maintained with the Hirsch Performance software upgrade, and further enhanced to provide as much torque as the drivetrain can handle over a wide rpm range, while also adding a clear power improvement in the higher rpm range."

 

6 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

 Makes spinning the front wheels much easier.

 

When I was younger it we were totally consumed by the desire to make the wheels spin on our vehicles, it took a lot of effort and technique = abuse to break traction in an 1100 Escort, older vehicles like my A35 were much more fun especially with knackered spring shackle bushes, shock absorbers etc. So when I see a Kevin doing the same I know whats going through his immature mind.

 

Now I look on it as a failing if ever I lose traction or the TCS were to intervene, I'm sure at one time I could have identified with comments like "it will happily spin the wheels at 80mph in 3rd gear" but not any more, 3 decades of motorsport were spent perfecting the art of transmitting the maximum of power to but not beyond the point of breaking traction and unbalancing the vehicle. OK I get drifting and showboating, I have done enough of it myself but thats with an LSD, being proud to spin one wheel (because it wont be plural) at 80mph is as pointless as I was  doing a 3 pedal nose dive weight transfer burnout in a MK2 tincorner just a lot more dangerous to others.

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

When I was younger it we were totally consumed by the desire to make the wheels spin on our vehicles, it took a lot of effort and technique = abuse to break traction in an 1100 Escort, older vehicles like my A35 were much more fun especially with knackered spring shackle bushes, shock absorbers etc. So when I see a Kevin doing the same I know whats going through his immature mind.

 

 

Just as I could do in my HA Viva with about 35 BHP (it only fired properly on three cylinders) and a highly unsophisticated cartsprung rear end.  The folly of youth.

I also still remember 50 years after the event the difference when I changed from Dunlop cardboard crossplies on my Mini 850 (Oselli tuned, but only stage 1) to Michelin ZXs.  It started driving round corners instead of drifting.

 

 

23 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Now I look on it as a failing if ever I lose traction or the TCS were to intervene, I'm sure at one time I could have identified with comments like "it will happily spin the wheels at 80mph in 3rd gear" but not any more, 3 decades of motorsport were spent perfecting the art of transmitting the maximum of power to but not beyond the point of breaking traction and unbalancing the vehicle. OK I get drifting and showboating, I have done enough of it myself but thats with an LSD, being proud to spin one wheel (because it wont be plural) at 80mph is as pointless as I was  doing a 3 pedal nose dive weight transfer burnout in a MK2 tincorner just a lot more dangerous to others.

 

My personal motorsport experience is limited to the occasional visit to karting centres and spectating many times at Oulton Park, but yes, I agree, losing traction is usually a failing and especially so in the likes of F1.  

 

 

19 hours ago, J.R. said:

"Not an exact 50/50 weight distribution" 🤣🤣🤣

 

Have you ever jacked your car up by the front or rear to work on it? Any more weight on the front and the things would be lethal on a 2 post vehicle lift, they are pretty bad as they are.

 

 

 

Well of course it would be lethal.  I'm just talking about relative weights of similar sized front engined front wheel drive cars with similar outputs and performance figures, especially the vRS and the Saab.  With four wheels supporting the weight, not a couple of lifting beams under the B posts.  Which I suppose is why two pillar lifts have swing-out arms to lift under the sills near the front and back wheels, and have regulations over their use including weight limits and CoG considerations.  Very important when lifting a 911, maybe not so critical with a mainstream family saloon or hatch.

 

Whether leaving the boxes to do their own things, or using paddles and/or sport mode or using the gearlever for manual changes (all of which the Saab also had), even though the Saab gave away a second or so to the vRS in the 0-60 dash, when it comes to the very  important issue of off-the-line acceleration at roundabouts etc the Saab was far more trustworthy than the vRS was or the Karoq is during those first two or three seconds to around 30, 35 mph.   I'm not trying to reach escape velocity from traffic lights, or beat Hamilton or Verstappen to the first corner, just join normal traffic.

 

From a prompt standing start, under every condition of road, weather (except snow and ice, obviously), tyres, driver input and gearbox control, the Saab rarely had wheelspin, the Skodas almost invariably did and do.  The biggest single difference is the weight. 

 

And of course modern gearbox electronics will play a role, but shouldn't the far newer DSG box be smarter than the traditional slushbox of the Saab, dating from maybe at least 15 years previously, and be able to get the power down without spinning the wheels?

Edited 10 December, 20214 yr by FlyingGecko

I have 1.8tsi DSG which also suffers from wheelspin, i reduced it with coilovers and top tyre, at the moment driving on Michelin CC2 and these are really hard to spin, better then my Bridgestone Potenza sports in summer😁. But yes, still spins, next time 4x4😉

The EA211, 1.5lt engines have maximum torque available of either 200Nm from 1,400rpm or 250Nm from 1,500rpm

 

That will spin the tyres !!...

 

Having a set of wider 225mm (225/45R17) tyres helps mitigate it.....but you still get it on steep uphill junctions when you need to get away quickly!..

Edited 10 December, 20214 yr by fabdavrav

On 09/12/2021 at 17:43, FlyingGecko said:

A hundred and fifty extra kilos over each axle - over 23 stone in old money at each end - will have given the Saab something to fight against, even with the 350 Nm at its disposal through the auto box, (same as the vRS) traction control on or off, but I repeat, memories of wheelspin are few. Unlike the two previous Octavias, a petrol 1.4 DSG before the petrol DSG vRS, and the current petrol 1.5 DSG Karoq.

 

Yes, I know it's not an exact 50/50 weight distribution, but we're not talking about a four litre flat six hanging off the back like a Porsche 911, truly distorting things.

 

I'm sure some of the over 100 FWD cars I drove over half a million miles in the previous 38 years will have had wheelspin issues.  But here I'm just stating what I've experienced over the past sixteen years, nearly 200,000 miles, and four specific FWD cars, with (very)  broadly similar performance envelopes and physical dimensions but three of them weighing a lot less than the fourth.

 

 

 

 

Later - BTW, I've held IAM membership since 1982 and been re-assessed since, so also have some theoretical driving skills knowledge as well as experience.  And no history of crashing in smow or ice.

I have to agree here.

 

My previous car (also a Saab but a 9-3 Convertible with 240bhp, 490nm of torque and was FWD with an auto gearbox) was also much less prone to wheel spin and I could, most of the time, floor it while setting off with minimal or zero wheel spin. 

 

My current 1.4 TSI DSG will light up the tyres pretty much every time if I just floor it though.

 

But then the Saab weighed an extra 400kg!!

 

It also had wider tyres (235 Vs 205) which no doubt makes a difference too.

Edited 10 December, 20214 yr by Phil-E

But tyre wear I don't have, suspension geometry was checked couple of times just to be sure. 

I had a Fabia 1.0 DSG, man that car could spin wheels in 3rd gear😁

At what point did poor drivers start blaming their vehicles because the wheels spin when they "floor it" from a standstill with a powerfull engine? I must have missed it.

 

Saab probably realised early on that some drivers of automatic vehicles lack cerebral connection between their control inputs and the vehicle output and understanding to adapt to the conditions so the programmed the ECU to do the power modulation for them.