Pls. listen to my 1.2 tsi cold start - Chain elongation

[mikkelvitus]

Hi All!

I have this O2 1.2 tsi 2010 with the EA111 chain engine.
The engine did have a complete chain and sprocket renewal in 2017, 80.000 km ago.

Im nervous the chain again is elongated, but perhaps Im worried for no reason. I know that this engine is supposed to rattle, until oilpressure builds up, and it does only rattle when cold started (1-2 days since last start), and never rattles when driving. Im aware of the issue with oilfilter seals, and there is not a forgotten seal in my engine.

Do you think it sounds un healthy ? At the start on the video it has'nt had a start in 5 days.
 

Even though the chain tensioner is hydraulic, do you think a tensioner can be tired, and become less good over time ? Would it be pointless to try to replace the tensioner only, hoping for less ratlle at startup ?

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ANWCQ9MKvQvRoEFbe6yJnan8IPsE7Lq2/view?usp=sharing

 

[mikkelvitus]

It would be much appreciated if someone with engine knowledge would take a short listen to the video, and the rattle at the startup ?

BR
Mikkel

[Golf-Fiend]

Sounds to me more like a hydraulic tappet noise.  It seems to disappear very quickly. A lot of my Golfs sounded like that at start-up but also a lot worse.

[mikkelvitus]

14 hours ago, Golf-Fiend said:

Sounds to me more like a hydraulic tappet noise.  It seems to disappear very quickly. A lot of my Golfs sounded like that at start-up but also a lot worse.

Hi Golf-Friend,
And thanks for your answer.

Is hydraulic tappet noise also a result of the missing oil-pressure in the process of starting the engine ?
Is it only on these types of engines (EA111) that the oil pressure takes 2-3 seconds to build up in the engine, or is that a common thing with all engines ?

BR
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

I have a 2015 VW Polo with the same engine (1.2 TSI CBZB) - when cold starting, it also makes the same rattling sound you have posted (albeit, it does not rattle on cold start every day, only during some days)

 

I showed this to my mechanic and he suggested to try replacing the chain tensioner (inexpensive) before thinking about a timing chain kit (expensive)

 

The chain tensioner has been ordered - I also have a few other jobs (rear shocks & water pump) planned for this car, so I'll get the tensioner done once all the other parts come in.

 

Hopefully the tensioner fixes the issue.

[mikkelvitus]

1 hour ago, GamesGoblin said:

I have a 2015 VW Polo with the same engine (1.2 TSI CBZB) - when cold starting, it also makes the same rattling sound you have posted (albeit, it does not rattle on cold start every day, only during some days)

 

I showed this to my mechanic and he suggested to try replacing the chain tensioner (inexpensive) before thinking about a timing chain kit (expensive)

 

The chain tensioner has been ordered - I also have a few other jobs (rear shocks & water pump) planned for this car, so I'll get the tensioner done once all the other parts come in.

 

Hopefully the tensioner fixes the issue.

That is really interresting!

Please kindly update your experience changing the tensioner , and if it makes any difference comparing to how Your engine sounds at startup now.

 

BR
Mikkel

[mikkelvitus]

On 19/05/2022 at 17:37, GamesGoblin said:

I have a 2015 VW Polo with the same engine (1.2 TSI CBZB) - when cold starting, it also makes the same rattling sound you have posted (albeit, it does not rattle on cold start every day, only during some days)

 

I showed this to my mechanic and he suggested to try replacing the chain tensioner (inexpensive) before thinking about a timing chain kit (expensive)

 

The chain tensioner has been ordered - I also have a few other jobs (rear shocks & water pump) planned for this car, so I'll get the tensioner done once all the other parts come in.

 

Hopefully the tensioner fixes the issue.

Hi GamesGoblin,

 

Have You been able to try to replace the chain-tensioner only, and see if that helped the rattle at cold startup ? Or it did'nt make a difference ?
I would really like to know ?

BR
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

23 minutes ago, mikkelvitus said:

Hi GamesGoblin,

 

Have You been able to try to replace the chain-tensioner only, and see if that helped the rattle at cold startup ? Or it did'nt make a difference ?
I would really like to know ?

BR
Mikkel

 

Hi

 

I have ordered the chain tensioner with the part number 03F109507F on the16th of May, but unfortunately it has not reached me yet. I'm guessing the part needs to be flown in from Europe that's why the delay.

 

I have already received my water pump, rear shock absorbers and rear shock stop buffers - only the tensioner needs to arrive for the work to start.

 

I'll surely post the results here once I install it.

 

Best Regards

Edited 1 June, 2022 by GamesGoblin

[mikkelvitus]

On 01/06/2022 at 06:45, GamesGoblin said:

 

Hi

 

I have ordered the chain tensioner with the part number 03F109507F on the16th of May, but unfortunately it has not reached me yet. I'm guessing the part needs to be flown in from Europe that's why the delay.

 

I have already received my water pump, rear shock absorbers and rear shock stop buffers - only the tensioner needs to arrive for the work to start.

 

I'll surely post the results here once I install it.

 

Best Regards

Im soooo curious... Have'nt you got the tensioner yet ?

 

BR
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

On 15/06/2022 at 02:34, mikkelvitus said:

Im soooo curious... Have'nt you got the tensioner yet ?

 

BR
Mikkel

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Unfortunately not, I still have not got it and I don't think the website I ordered from is going to source it for me. The status of the item even after a month is still "processing" and I have received all the other items from this order.

 

 

I decided to buy this from the UK and have it shipped to me - I have placed the order today and will wait for it to arrive (shipping is through PostNL)

 

I'll update this thread as soon as I get the item and have it replaced.

 

Funnily enough, I haven't heard the rattle on cold starts for the last few days.

 

Best Regards

 

[mikkelvitus]

On 16/06/2022 at 19:30, GamesGoblin said:

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Unfortunately not, I still have not got it and I don't think the website I ordered from is going to source it for me. The status of the item even after a month is still "processing" and I have received all the other items from this order.

 

 

I decided to buy this from the UK and have it shipped to me - I have placed the order today and will wait for it to arrive (shipping is through PostNL)

 

I'll update this thread as soon as I get the item and have it replaced.

 

Funnily enough, I haven't heard the rattle on cold starts for the last few days.

 

Best Regards

 

 

[mikkelvitus]

Hi GamesGoblin,

Still haven't found what You are looking for ?

 

BR
Mikkel

[TheClient]

To me the op video does possibly sound like a bit of timing chain noise.

 

If it wasn't there after you replaced last time I'd get it looked at again..

 

A lot of the vw tsi engines have used hydraulic tensioner with a ratchet lock when engine turned off. Lots of those tensioner esp early revisions were prone to failure. Eg ea888 gen 2.

 

I haven't worked on an ea111 but looked at this video out of interest.

 

The main tensioner looks like a print loaded tensioner bolt, not hydraulic.

 

The key cause of a problem and noise (apart from the tensioner spring compressing over time) is timing chain stretch. Once the chain stretches beyond the point the tensioner can cope you end up with noise from chain, possibly rubbing and a risk of skipping teeth. The bolt tensioner on ea888 gen 3 is used an one of the other chain I.e. balance shafts pr oil pumps can't rember which off hand.

 

This is a decent video of the issues and tear down. If the chain is stretched tensioner bolt replacement will do nothing really to solve. 

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DsuJk4u0yS4U&ved=2ahUKEwiajPjfp9z4AhWGQkEAHbVuDFsQo7QBegQIChAF&usg=AOvVaw1Wqo2rgr8OIC9DCCgDiG66

 

 

[mikkelvitus]

1 hour ago, TheClient said:

 

 

The main tensioner looks like a print loaded tensioner bolt, not hydraulic.

 

The key cause of a problem and noise (apart from the tensioner spring compressing over time) is timing chain stretch. Once the chain stretches beyond the point the tensioner can cope you end up with noise from chain, possibly rubbing and a risk of skipping teeth. The bolt tensioner on ea888 gen 3 is used an one of the other chain I.e. balance shafts pr oil pumps can't rember which off hand.

 

 

Hi TheClient, 

 

And thanks for Your input.
Just as a comment the chain tensioner does not look like in the prev. post, it looks like this in the EA111 1.2 tsi.
Its a hydraulic tensioner, but the is a traditionel spring in it as well, to maintain pressure until oil pressure builds up.
You dont think this spring could get "tired" as all of us with this type of engine, all at some point suffers from chain rattle at cold startup ?

[TheClient]

Springs can compress of course. But more likely the chain is worn stretched again.

 

How frequent are oil changes? That's one contributing factor. 

 

So the one hole shown is fed by an oil gallery in the block wall? 

[TheClient]

Must be fed by that hole and an oil gallery then.

 

See image on the Self Study Guide.  Still I think you're more than likely to find an accompanying chain stretch problem than just the tensioner.

 

You could try an tensioner replacement I guess.  It wouldn't be the normal diagnostic process just replacing and not checking root cause.  Can you remove and replace without removing covers? Looks like it may be possible.

 

What have your oil change frequency been since 80k replacement? By the time you pull off the covers and dismantle for access you may as well replace anyway.  The parts are not huge cost. Labour probably higher.

 

 

[mikkelvitus]

On 16/06/2022 at 19:30, GamesGoblin said:

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Unfortunately not, I still have not got it and I don't think the website I ordered from is going to source it for me. The status of the item even after a month is still "processing" and I have received all the other items from this order.

 

I'll update this thread as soon as I get the item and have it replaced.

 

 

 

Hi Games Goblin,

You still havent changed the tensioner ?

 

BR
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

5 hours ago, mikkelvitus said:

 

Hi Games Goblin,

You still havent changed the tensioner ?

 

BR
Mikkel

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry, I don't have any updates for you,

 

The item has been shipped to me from Germany through Deutsche Post - last status update was on 25th June

 

 

I remember many years ago getting an item from Deutsche Post (DHL Paket International) and I remember it being quite slow to arrive - so I'm guessing this package too will take a lot of time to reach me.

 

Will surely post an update here once I receive it

 

Best Regards

Edited 14 July, 2022 by GamesGoblin
typo

[mikkelvitus]

On 14/07/2022 at 19:39, GamesGoblin said:

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry, I don't have any updates for you,

 

The item has been shipped to me from Germany through Deutsche Post - last status update was on 25th June

 

 

Best Regards

 

Hi,

I wondered - have You installed the tensioner ?
Any better on the startup sound ?

Best Regards
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

On 11/09/2022 at 01:47, mikkelvitus said:

 

Hi,

I wondered - have You installed the tensioner ?
Any better on the startup sound ?

Best Regards
Mikkel

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Sorry for the late reply. I finally got the tensioner replaced yesterday - along with the water pump (it was leaking) and the regular oil change.

 

I started the car today morning and there was no noise and it started up smoothly. Will have to test more cold starts if the problem has indeed been solved.

 

Thanks

[mikkelvitus]

9 minutes ago, GamesGoblin said:

 

 

I started the car today morning and there was no noise and it started up smoothly. Will have to test more cold starts if the problem has indeed been solved.

 

 

Hi

 

No worries - I reallly aapreciate Your input anf find it really helpfull if You will update in a couple of weeks or so, if it really has helped.

Cheers

[mikkelvitus]

On 15/11/2022 at 08:04, GamesGoblin said:

 

Hi Mikkel

 

I started the car today morning and there was no noise and it started up smoothly. Will have to test more cold starts if the problem has indeed been solved.

Hi GamesGoblin

 

Im very coriuous about Your experience with changing the chain tensioner - did it do any improvement on rattling on coldstarts, or is is to early to say ?

BR
Mikkel

[GamesGoblin]

On 24/11/2022 at 15:02, mikkelvitus said:

Im very coriuous about Your experience with changing the chain tensioner - did it do any improvement on rattling on coldstarts, or is is to early to say ?

 

Hi Mikkel

 

Replacing the chain tensioner seems to have solved my issue of rattling at startup - it's been at least 2 weeks since I had it changed and I have not got the rattle on cold starts since. This includes cold starts where the car was sitting un-used for multiple days. So I think the new tensioner has solved the issue.

 

An interesting thing to note - the tensioner that was removed from my car had a part number of 03F109507D (this is the part that was installed from the factory) and the replacement tensioner had the part number 03F109507F  - so I'm guessing VW has changed the design of the tensioner?

 

Best Regards

Edited 28 November, 2022 by GamesGoblin

[mikkelvitus]

10 minutes ago, GamesGoblin said:

Replacing the chain tensioner seems to have solved my issue of rattling at startup - it's been at least 2 weeks since I had it changed and I have not got the rattle on cold starts since. This includes cold starts where the car was sitting un-used for multiple days. So I think the new tensioner has solved the issue.

 

An interesting thing to note - the tensioner that was removed from my car had a part number of 03F109507D (this is the part that was installed from the factory) and the replacement tensioner had the part number 03F109507F  - so I'm guessing VW has changed the design of the tensioner?

Hi GamesGoblin

 

Thanks for the update - I'm very pleased that changing the tensioner have a positive effect on the rattle!
I will also try to change the tensioner in my car  with the F version.

Did you lock the camshafts with locking tool, before the replace, or did you just loosen the old one and replaced it, without any prep. ?
I think it should be possible to do it, without locking the camshafts - wich I would much prefer, as it is a lot easier then,

BR
Mikkel