To weld or not to weld

[Tomjones1995]

Hello everybody,

 

I know this isn't exactly the right section of the site to post this question but I trust your judgements.

 

My car went in for an MOT recently and to my surprise they said the sills had rotted through and needed welding, I had no car and they couldn't weld so I've got a cheap run around for now and the car is SORN.

 

My Question is, what do you guys think I should do or rather what you would do with a car that needs welding?

 

Keep or scrap? Aside from that the car is in pretty decent condition really.

 

Thanks for your time,

Tom

[AnnoyingPentium]

All down to how much you like it and how much it'd cost to gie it a whizz over with the sparkly stick.

[Tomjones1995]

16 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

All down to how much you like it and how much it'd cost to gie it a whizz over with the sparkly stick.

 

Thanks for the reply, it's not so much the money, it's more the structural side the car, I've heard they are weaker after they need welding and they may also need welding over and over again due to recurrent rusting?

 

 

[VanhireBoys]

Patching that hole will work for a while but next year will be as bad as ever and the car will surely fail again. 

 

Albeit a different vehicle but I've seen patching done to Porsche 944's and 924's and this ends up with the car needing both sills. With this done properly and properly sealed it lasts very well. As I said the last of the 944 is 10 years older than the oldest Polo/Fabia so not a good example !! 

 

I say get 2 brand new sills front to back and get a good bodyshop to weld them in and seal them properly - Otherwise patch it up test and flog or scrap altogether 

 

As Ryan alluded to if you like her, she is mechanically stable and you intend on driving her on for many more years then 2 sills it is ! 

 

[nta16]

Tom that's a lot of visible rot the old iceberg theory often holds.  You need either a mate who's good at welding or get a quote or opinion from a good professional welder/bodyshop.  I was with a mate today when he was sorting getting a rusty sill sorted on his Jag, £30 for the part but that's just the start of the work and often more is discovered after the work is started.  If the welding job is done properly you don't need worry about strength and if it's done properly it should last a reasonable time it's just that if there's rust there where else will rust be discovered and how often. 

 

Anything can be sorted, if you have enough money and perhaps time, as I said before sometimes you need to decide when to cut your losses and not throw (more) good money after bad. 

Edited 24 June, 2022 by nta16

[Tomjones1995]

17 hours ago, VanhireBoys said:

Patching that hole will work for a while but next year will be as bad as ever and the car will surely fail again. 

 

Albeit a different vehicle but I've seen patching done to Porsche 944's and 924's and this ends up with the car needing both sills. With this done properly and properly sealed it lasts very well. As I said the last of the 944 is 10 years older than the oldest Polo/Fabia so not a good example !! 

 

I say get 2 brand new sills front to back and get a good bodyshop to weld them in and seal them properly - Otherwise patch it up test and flog or scrap altogether 

 

As Ryan alluded to if you like her, she is mechanically stable and you intend on driving her on for many more years then 2 sills it is ! 

 

 

Thanks for messaging.

 

I agree with getting the sills fully replaced, I wouldn't of bothered patching them anyway. I have it booked in to a local garage who reckons he can weld in two new sills for circa £400. I'l just see what he says when he sees the damage in person. Thanks again for the advice.

 

17 hours ago, nta16 said:

Tom that's a lot of visible rot the old iceberg theory often holds.  You need either a mate who's good at welding or get a quote or opinion from a good professional welder/bodyshop.  I was with a mate today when he was sorting getting a rusty sill sorted on his Jag, £30 for the part but that's just the start of the work and often more is discovered after the work is started.  If the welding job is done properly you don't need worry about strength and if it's done properly it should last a reasonable time it's just that if there's rust there where else will rust be discovered and how often. 

 

Anything can be sorted, if you have enough money and perhaps time, as I said before sometimes you need to decide when to cut your losses and not throw (more) good money after bad. 

 

I see, I'm hoping it's not just the tip of the iceberg because when I used to go to a garage for MOT's a couple of years back, they used to spray the underneath of the car with some kind of rust inhibitor of something, probably just old oil because I don't think it was the proper underseal. But I'm hoping that may of stopped the rust from spreading out further than the sills.

 

As I said to VanhireBoys, I have it booked in to a local garage for him to inspect the damage and give me a more accurate quote, he said on the phone roughly £400 so I'll take see what he says it from there.

 

I did message a body shop nearby but they didn't reply so I wonder if it's because they don't want to touch this kind of job due to the iceberg theory.

 

Thanks for your advice,

Tom

[J.R.]

In the late 70's and early 80's I worked most evenings and all weekends welding (mainly) sills & inner sills on Minis, 1100's Escorts etc etc, it was the only way I could continue my studys and appernticeship as my wages only just met the rent I had to pay.

 

£25 for a sill including the part and underseal was the going rate then, double bubble if the inner sill needed doing, it was before the days of restoration so unless it was a collector if the inner membrane, the part that gives the most structural strength, was rotted it was simply left like that, the sill & inner sill would cover it!

 

For Minis & 1100's they made sills that extended 3", 6" or 9" onto the rotted floorpan, they covered a multitude of sins and then even the inner sill was not replaced

 

I was earning £16 gross, my first investment was a £75 trolley jack from Halfords (£62.50 with discount from the company motor club) I'm still using it today, then a BOC Portapak for £278 including 10 year cylinder rental contract, gas was very expensive even then, IIRC started at £11 then went up and up, these costs were quickly recouped.

 

I watched an interview with Gordon Murray and he described doing exactly the same thing as me at the same age on the same vehicles and his price structure was the same!

[J.R.]

Everything, sills, inner sills, wings etc were all cut off with a club hammer and bolster chisel, the one that is still in my toolbox today and I used yesterday & will today for removing render while replacing windows.

 

No angle grinders, nibblers or air shears then, the knuckle of my left index finger used to get a beating all the time while swinging the hammer in the gloom under a jacked up car with my legs sticking out in the road.

[nta16]

If it's just the sills then replacing the sills will deal with the rust on the sills but you do need to find out exactly what sills are to be replaced, are they two part, three part, doing one side of the car or both sides.

 

Putting something on the underside of the car can be a good idea but not anything that seals in rust that has already started from the other side of the seal.

 

You also want to know why the sill rusted so badly seemingly so quickly, though it could have been there a long time building, are drain points blocked or a leak/rainwater goes to that area.  Remember they're only quoting you for the job you have asked about they're not looking for rust elsewhere, that's future work.  If they're decent if you ask they can give a quick look over the car and give their personal opinion if they've worked on enough of your model, or known about them or just generally with repairing old cars.

 

Edited 25 June, 2022 by nta16
spelling

[TMB]

Wasn't expecting to see that on your car, Tom ☹️

[Tomjones1995]

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

In the late 70's and early 80's I worked most evenings and all weekends welding (mainly) sills & inner sills on Minis, 1100's Escorts etc etc, it was the only way I could continue my studys and appernticeship as my wages only just met the rent I had to pay.

 

£25 for a sill including the part and underseal was the going rate then, double bubble if the inner sill needed doing, it was before the days of restoration so unless it was a collector if the inner membrane, the part that gives the most structural strength, was rotted it was simply left like that, the sill & inner sill would cover it!

 

For Minis & 1100's they made sills that extended 3", 6" or 9" onto the rotted floorpan, they covered a multitude of sins and then even the inner sill was not replaced

 

I was earning £16 gross, my first investment was a £75 trolley jack from Halfords (£62.50 with discount from the company motor club) I'm still using it today, then a BOC Portapak for £278 including 10 year cylinder rental contract, gas was very expensive even then, IIRC started at £11 then went up and up, these costs were quickly recouped.

 

I watched an interview with Gordon Murray and he described doing exactly the same thing as me at the same age on the same vehicles and his price structure was the same!

 

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

Everything, sills, inner sills, wings etc were all cut off with a club hammer and bolster chisel, the one that is still in my toolbox today and I used yesterday & will today for removing render while replacing windows.

 

No angle grinders, nibblers or air shears then, the knuckle of my left index finger used to get a beating all the time while swinging the hammer in the gloom under a jacked up car with my legs sticking out in the road.

 

It's interesting to hear how much more simple it was back in the 70's and 80's and even I suppose in the 90's with maintain a car. My Dad used to work on his own cars before I was born and he used to say to me that when cars started getting more technological and electronic was when he gave up on it and just took it too a garage.

 

Things don't always change for the better.

 

Hourly rates for garages are eye watering these days too.

 

Thanks for sharing 👍

[Tomjones1995]

3 hours ago, nta16 said:

If it's just the sills then replacing the sills will deal with the rust on the sills but you do need to find out exactly what sills are to be replaced, are they two part, three part, doing one side of the car or both sides.

 

Putting something on the underside of the car can be a good idea but not anything that seals in rust that has already started from the other side of the seal.

 

You also want to know why the sill rusted so badly seemingly so quickly, though it could have been there a long time building, are drain points blocked or a leak/rainwater goes to that area.  Remember they're only quoting you for the job you have asked about they're not looking for rust elsewhere, that's future work.  If they're decent if you ask they can give a quick look over the car and give their personal opinion if they've worked on enough of your model, or known about them or just generally with repairing old cars.

 

 

I'l ask him to have a real thorough look over it and let me know the extent of the damage. The sills need doing on both sides but I'm unsure if the inner sills need doing. I'd been maintaining the car to a reasonably high standard as my budget could afford and was completely unaware as to the extent of the rot on the sills, as you can see on the picture I uploaded, the black paint would of covered all the rot and hidden it from plain sight. I also didn't have any advisories on previous MOT's either to give me a chance to sort it before now, it was such a shock to hear when the MOT place told me underneath the black sill paint was completely rotted sill and they couldn't weld it for me.

 

I've noticed the garages I go to just do the bare minimum that the car needs to be roadworthy and don't give me any real advice or 'heads up' about future problems such as perhaps suggesting an underseal before it got rusty in the first place.

 

I'l weigh up my options and not let my heart rule my head on this, this time.

 

Thanks for the advice 👍

[Tomjones1995]

4 hours ago, TMB said:

Wasn't expecting to see that on your car, Tom ☹️

I know Lee, I was so shocked as well when the garage phoned and said 'Hi Tom, We've had a look and there's not too much wrong with the car just that it's failed the MOT on the sills, the screwdriver just went straight through so they need welding but we can't weld that for you".

 

And because I live in the country and took the car to my nearest VW indy for the MOT which was 30 miles away from home I had to quickly source a cheap run around so I could decide what to do with this car. Such a shock it was.

 

As I said in a proven post, the garages don't give me any warnings of potential future headaches, you have to be mechanically minded and knowledgeable where cars are concerned yourself to tell them what you want It seems, otherwise people end up in messes like this 😞

[nta16]

7 hours ago, Tomjones1995 said:

I'm unsure if the inner sills need doing.

I and I expect others would be (very) surprised if the inner sill(s) weren't affected to some extent or other.

 

 

7 hours ago, Tomjones1995 said:

I've noticed the garages I go to just do the bare minimum that the car needs to be roadworthy and don't give me any real advice or 'heads up' about future problems such as perhaps suggesting an underseal before it got rusty in the first place.

I have absolutely no need to be fair to most in the motor trade, but most customers do just want the bare minimum done and don't appreciate warnings (bad news) and will take their business elsewhere on being told but a proper good person or place will tell you just because they are good but also if they're good they often don't need to worry about losing that sort of customer as they'll have enough customers and work already.  That's the problem, you can't get to many decent folk in the car trade as they have a waiting list.

 

As I put before it's no good telling you to put underseal on an old car as they could possibly speed the rusting.  The sills would have needed cavity rust proofing as the rust would have (mostly?) been from the inside not outside.

 

Doesn't the VW indy know of good welders or bodyshops?

 

[VanhireBoys]

Unfortunately we all have to face the fact now that our cars will suffer this due to age. This is now the point in time where a massive cull takes place and once popular makes and models suffer a big decline leaving the Mk1 Fabia somewhat endangered. 

 

Maybe now is the time we all get together and compile a list of where exactly bodywork rot trouble starts and put it in a sticky on the forum, then we will all have an awareness and will be able to spot rot problem areas early. Anybody that has broken up a Mk1 Fabia will know exactly where to target ! 

 

As nta16 alluded to, panels rot from the inside out and once you see it its already advanced - Has anyone ever seen the back arches on a Mk3 Cavalier ..?

Once the back arches are bubbling the complete back section of the rear chassis legs are like cream crackers. This was the biggest single factor in the Mk3 Cavvys demise.

 

I'm hoping that things go OK at the bodyshop and that they dont take the proverbial quoting an unrealistic price to put you off !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 June, 2022 by VanhireBoys

[totoro]

 

Having owned a succesion of Lancia Betas in various flavours, coupes and an HPE, I would not be too worried about a patch over that rust.

 

Any Lancia fan would consider that a mere blemish.

[J.R.]

Were it mine and of course I would then be repairing it not giving it to a garage I would not replace the entire sill, I would cut progressively further forward until no more rust then replace all the rusted metal including the membrane, if the vehicle warranted it I would do a flush joint using my Joddler and Avdel pins.

 

The reason for not doing any more than necessary is any welding will destroy the factory seam sealing and internal cavity protection causing accelerated further rusting, also its a lot less finishing and paintwork to do.

 

The factory spot welding will be stronger than any repair plug or seam welding.

[Tomjones1995]

16 hours ago, nta16 said:

I and I expect others would be (very) surprised if the inner sill(s) weren't affected to some extent or other.

 

 

I have absolutely no need to be fair to most in the motor trade, but most customers do just want the bare minimum done and don't appreciate warnings (bad news) and will take their business elsewhere on being told but a proper good person or place will tell you just because they are good but also if they're good they often don't need to worry about losing that sort of customer as they'll have enough customers and work already.  That's the problem, you can't get to many decent folk in the car trade as they have a waiting list.

 

As I put before it's no good telling you to put underseal on an old car as they could possibly speed the rusting.  The sills would have needed cavity rust proofing as the rust would have (mostly?) been from the inside not outside.

 

Doesn't the VW indy know of good welders or bodyshops?

 

 

I understand what you mean, that's a good point.

 

Yeah VW indy knew of a welder but I lived too far away and they didn't have a courtesy car which I wouldn't of really expected anyway and it would of been much easier for me to have the VW indy weld the car and then I continued to use their courtesy car until the work had finished.

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

Were it mine and of course I would then be repairing it not giving it to a garage I would not replace the entire sill, I would cut progressively further forward until no more rust then replace all the rusted metal including the membrane, if the vehicle warranted it I would do a flush joint using my Joddler and Avdel pins.

 

The reason for not doing any more than necessary is any welding will destroy the factory seam sealing and internal cavity protection causing accelerated further rusting, also its a lot less finishing and paintwork to do.

 

The factory spot welding will be stronger than any repair plug or seam welding.

 

So seam welding a full sill onto the car would effectively weaken the car?

[nta16]

19 hours ago, Tomjones1995 said:

So seam welding a full sill onto the car would effectively weaken the car?

I've no idea about welding, ask the person who's quoting the job.  Nothing wrong with a patch if it's done well but if later more patches are needed it can get more awkward and perhaps proportionally more expensive.

Edited 27 June, 2022 by nta16

[Tomjones1995]

Just an update on this thread.

 

I've been to the garage this afternoon and they reckon that they can patch it on the ends of the sill for £200-£300 and the inner sill is unaffected and the centre of the outer sill is still sound.

 

He reckoned that to replace the whole sill would therefore be excessive and unnecessary.

 

Just need to decide what to do now I guess.

 

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice 👍