EV car tax

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Gmac983 said:

I wouldn’t say tracking your whereabouts or miles clocked up is necessary. Or indeed barring after market modifications. Just taxing the kilowatts used to charge your vehicle and a rebate on that if vehicle 2 home or vehicle 2 load is used and/or a higher rate of tax on fast charging. At the end of the day current fuel duty makes a far greater contribution to government purse than road tax. 

This will work, not sure about app-to-unlock or any straight forward way to implement it. But happy to be taxed on energy usage as long as other uses for EV battery will not incur this tax.

 

FWIW, here's my thoughts on possible addition sources of EV taxation that are easy to implement and sends the right message:

I think 20% or even higher on rapid charging makes a lot of sense. It's not meant to be used for majority of EV's source of energy. It puts excess demand on the grid (or require another battery made for buffering).

To counter that, a tax on giant battery is needed. Works the same as expensive car tax: first few years. I've mentioned this before, something like <40 kWh free; 40-55 kWh band A, 55-70 kWh band B, 70-90 kWh band C, etc. This is to incentivise more efficient cars and reduce environmental damage done by unnecessary big batteries during its manufacturing.

 

22 hours ago, VRS_White_Hatch said:

The "Specialist vehicle disposal or recycling charge" will be the next tax. Electric vehicle owners will have to pay a tax because of the environmental impact of their vehicles at end of life. 

You will find this charge will be covered by the embedded value of the battery when the car around it is destined for scrap yard.

 

 

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23 hours ago, J.R. said:

Another clue as to the way the wind is blowing is that cheaper off peak electricity is nowhere near as beneficial as it once was, to have it you pay a higher standing charge (in France at least, I'm not up to speed with the latest UK offers) and pay well over the odds for the rest of your daytime consumption, that is definitely happening in the UK, also the off peak hours have dropped from 8 to what is it now, 4 hours a night? Hardly incentivising when you look in detail.

This is why vehicle-2-home, home battery or any form of demand-side shaping will take off. I plan to move as close to 100% as possible to this 4 hours cheap period when I get vehicle-2-home installed.

There is actually Octopus Intelligent with cheaper than 4 hour pricing, 6 hours minimum (more cheap hours if your car needs it) if you allow energy company to take control of your charging and you only need to specify when you need at how much. (eg. 6am, 90%).

 

Flexibility is key here, you become one of the lever Grid can use to help control their balance. For as long as EV is parked, why do I care when it is being charged?

 

23 hours ago, J.R. said:

Because of the limited generating capacity this winter they have made a very swift law amendment allowing them to remove the 2 hour mid-day cheap rate from October through to March and its already implemented, they say it only affects immersion heaters (which is what people associate off peak tarif with) which is a complete lie and anyone with the slightest technical knowledge would realise that consumers are paying a higher price for every appliance consuming electricity during those 2 hours, more even than households on a standard tariff but it goes unchallenged and all the media even the QueChoisir the equivalent of Which Magazine are naively trotting out the same rubbish.

This is to be expected. The reason cheap 2 hour mid-day period exist is because of solar production. Solar doesn't do much during winter months, so there is no longer excess cheap electricity.

 

23 hours ago, J.R. said:

Your SmartMeters are a lot smarter than you realise and whoever runs the National Grid can cut down the maximum load you can draw at any time or cut you off remotely, with that amount of control it's highly unlikely that there would ever actually be any power cuts, just a reduction in what you can consume and when.

Again, flexibility is key. For cars that are parked over 90% of the time, it doesn't matter when it's charged as long as it can eventually be charged cheaply. So I think we'll see less and less dumb 1am-5am type tariffs, more half-hourly or even shorter tariffs that will require even smarter chargers (or other control) to take advantage.

 

[J.R.]

Can you explain or define a couple of terms for me please?

 

Vehicle 2 home? (I think I can guess this one but dont want to mislead myself)

 

Lever grid?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[wyx087]

20 hours ago, J.R. said:

Vehicle 2 home? (I think I can guess this one but dont want to mislead myself)

https://www.indra.co.uk/v2h

 

20 hours ago, J.R. said:

Lever grid?

Sorry. Bad wording on my part. Should read:

Flexibility is key here, your car battery becomes one of many variable the National Grid can use to help control their balance.

[lol-lol]

I do not mind paying road tax at the base level, on my Zoe ZE50, if we get decent roads.

 

The UK charge network is still a disgrace, except for the GridServe stations of which there is only a few, looking forward to the one in Plymouth.

 

Happy not to see government bungs on buying electric cars any more but please consider dropping VAT to 5% from 20% so we at least make some proper attempt to keep moving toward net zero for cars.

 

EV cars are making incremental progress but I rejected the Megane-e, not a bad car, as Bjorn Nyland called it, a fat Zoe, would like to try and Ariya 87 kw but the price is currently way too much.

 

There is just about no hope for much of the human race but having kids I do hope we fall in to oblivion as slowly as possible or we find another way to reverse climate change.

 

[Ttaskmaster]

On 18/11/2022 at 20:15, wyx087 said:

Again, you are forgetting EV are part of energy solution: demand shaping. The storage buffer capability they provide will make cheap renewable actually viable and overall energy much cheaper for everyone. Taxing this or dis-incentivise use of EV battery for other uses will push up cost of other form of energy storage (due to unnecessary higher demand for duplicated function hardware), push up cost of energy, and push up cost of EVERYTHING.

 

No, smart meter does not know what is being charged. It only reports overall home usage. If it tries to guess what is being used, how can it distinguish between EV charging, home battery charging, Zero Emission Boiler charging or just immersion heater?

 

Sure, you can do all that (from thousands of unnecessary charger re-install, to getting manufacturers on board to update cars that are long out of warranty) all for bring in a dogmatic tax based purely on previous liquid fuel ideology. Just because horses can feed off grass, doesn't mean motor vehicles can re-energise from a grass field. Just because steam trains were on tracks, doesn't mean cars couldn't go off road. Just because liquid fuel were taxed per litre, doesn't mean EV must be taxed per kWh.

 

The solution:demand has already been shaped. Once EVs replace ICEs almost entirely, the demand shape will be complete... ie, you'll have no choice but to use EVs, at which point they will charge whatever they like. They don't care if you store the energy or not, as you'll be charged for what is delivered to your battery.

Electric smart meters can be made to know what they're charging, if the government so chooses. The electronic device you're currently using to view this post has long had the ability to identify the exact make and model of any components connected to it, along with various other data about it. The two products talk to each other. This is so easily implemented in a charger-battery setup, I'm surprised it's not already widespread.

 

As for charger upgrades being unnecessary - It's easily done, especially under the auspices of a standardisation policy. Updating cars out of warranty is as easy as sending an email, essentially, as it's a remote software update - You don't need to bring the car in, they don't need to get a mechanic to open it up, it just gets sent to the car.

 

And you're very wrong about EVs not being taxed per kWh - Water, gas, electricity, food, personal services and millions of other things in life are all charged at unit rates, regardless of end use. Any taxation is a percentage of that unit rate, which is what makes it a fair taxation based on usage - You use more, you pay more.

 

 

On 18/11/2022 at 20:15, wyx087 said:

Again, you are forgetting EV are part of energy solution: demand shaping. The storage buffer capability they provide will make cheap renewable actually viable and overall energy much cheaper for everyone. Taxing this or dis-incentivise use of EV battery for other uses will push up cost of other form of energy storage (due to unnecessary higher demand for duplicated function hardware), push up cost of energy, and push up cost of EVERYTHING.

 

No, smart meter does not know what is being charged. It only reports overall home usage. If it tries to guess what is being used, how can it distinguish between EV charging, home battery charging, Zero Emission Boiler charging or just immersion heater?

 

Sure, you can do all that (from thousands of unnecessary charger re-install, to getting manufacturers on board to update cars that are long out of warranty) all for bring in a dogmatic tax based purely on previous liquid fuel ideology. Just because horses can feed off grass, doesn't mean motor vehicles can re-energise from a grass field. Just because steam trains were on tracks, doesn't mean cars couldn't go off road. Just because liquid fuel were taxed per litre, doesn't mean EV must be taxed per kWh.

 

The solution:demand has already been shaped. Once EVs replace ICEs almost entirely, the demand shape will be complete... ie, you'll have no choice but to use EVs, at which point they will charge whatever they like. They don't care if you store the energy or not, as you'll be charged for what is delivered to your battery.

Electric smart meters can be made to know what they're charging, if the government so chooses. The electronic device you're currently using to view this post has long had the ability to identify the exact make and model of any components connected to it, along with various other data about it. The two products talk to each other. This is so easily implemented in a charger-battery setup, I'm surprised it's not already widespread.

 

As for charger upgrades being unnecessary - It's easily done, especially under the auspices of a standardisation policy. Updating cars out of warranty is as easy as sending an email, essentially, as it's a remote software update - You don't need to bring the car in, they don't need to get a mechanic to open it up, it just gets sent to the car.

 

And you're very wrong about EVs not being taxed per kWh - Water, gas, electricity, food, personal services and millions of other things in life are all charged at unit rates, regardless of end use. Any taxation is a percentage of that unit rate, which is what makes it a fair taxation based on usage - You use more, you pay more.

 

 

[wyx087]

3 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Electric smart meters can be made to know what they're charging, if the government so chooses. The electronic device you're currently using to view this post has long had the ability to identify the exact make and model of any components connected to it, along with various other data about it. The two products talk to each other. This is so easily implemented in a charger-battery setup, I'm surprised it's not already widespread.

Your understanding of electronics is shockingly bad. Even though electronic device have the ability to identify connected devices, it does not mean all connected devices make the effort to identify themselves. Same with smart meter, to roll this out, first need a robust open standard (nothing exist for mains powered), then ANOTHER national campaign to replace all meter with new smart meter (we know how well current campaign is going), finally everyone must create mountains of e-waste by replace all perfectly working devices with identifier capability. 

 

I admire your ability to over estimate the level of cooperation competing companies can have. Let's look at how long it took USB -C to became the charging standard...... oh, it hasn't yet, and it will never be even after this has been made into law. Apple will just go completely wireless with a middle finger. But yes, government mandate can made it happen eventually, but even if this work gets started today, it wouldn't be implemented with enough market penetration for tax purposes by 2035. 

 

3 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

The solution:demand has already been shaped. Once EVs replace ICEs almost entirely, the demand shape will be complete... ie, you'll have no choice but to use EVs, at which point they will charge whatever they like. They don't care if you store the energy or not, as you'll be charged for what is delivered to your battery.

Demand shaping is not about what type of vehicle is in demand. I'm sorry, but you've completely misunderstood. 

 

EV charging can happen at any point when it is parked. This flexibility creates a massive opportunity to support things like this: https://www.nationalgrideso.com/industry-information/balancing-services/power-responsive 

 

3 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Updating cars out of warranty is as easy as sending an email, essentially, as it's a remote software update - You don't need to bring the car in, they don't need to get a mechanic to open it up, it just gets sent to the car.

Does Skoda know how to contact you to make changes to your Mk1 Octavia? 

There are tens thousands of EV's out there without over-the-air update capability. Just as many no longer has relationship with main dealers due to EV powertrain don't need servicing. 

 

3 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

And you're very wrong about EVs not being taxed per kWh - Water, gas, electricity, food, personal services and millions of other things in life are all charged at unit rates, regardless of end use. Any taxation is a percentage of that unit rate, which is what makes it a fair taxation based on usage - You use more, you pay more.

On the same train of thought: per-mile tax is the fairest type of road-usage tax. You drive more, you pay more. 

You seems to be really struggling with the idea that energy going into EV battery can be taken out for other things that are often associated with low taxes (home energy) or zero tax (grid stability support). Both of those examples are needed to bring more renwables into the grid. 

[Ttaskmaster]

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Your understanding of electronics is shockingly bad. Even though electronic device have the ability to identify connected devices, it does not mean all connected devices make the effort to identify themselves. Same with smart meter, to roll this out, first need a robust open standard (nothing exist for mains powered), then ANOTHER national campaign to replace all meter with new smart meter (we know how well current campaign is going), finally everyone must create mountains of e-waste by replace all perfectly working devices with identifier capability. 

 

I admire your ability to over estimate the level of cooperation competing companies can have. Let's look at how long it took USB -C to became the charging standard...... oh, it hasn't yet, and it will never be even after this has been made into law. Apple will just go completely wireless with a middle finger. But yes, government mandate can made it happen eventually, but even if this work gets started today, it wouldn't be implemented with enough market penetration for tax purposes by 2035. 

 

 

Let me rephrase - Electronic devices can be made to handshake very easily if the manufacturer so chooses... or if a regulation demands it.

However, it doesn't need a "robust open standard". That is just your pipe dream of the ideal. The reality is that the government will just pick one based off a cursory study and go with that. The rollout will then happen quite rapidly and no-one will care about e-waste apart from a few bleating tree-huggers, because those implementing the roll-out stand to make money from it.

 

Inter-company cooperation is not a factor either, as the government will either just pick one and force everyone to use that, or will find a retro-fitted solution. Most likely those companies will come to a consensus quite rapidly, as it means they'll also be able to make money from the data this thing collects. You are a commodity and a product to them. A farmed resource of electronic meta-goodness.

As for roll-out speed - You forget, this is about making money for the government. They will be STUNNINGLY fast at implementing that.

 

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Demand shaping is not about what type of vehicle is in demand. I'm sorry, but you've completely misunderstood. 

EV charging can happen at any point when it is parked.

 

 

I never said it was about cars.

It's about electricity and controlling the demand for it. In this instance they'll want to increase the demand, as that increases taxation revenue. The more people using EVs, the more people there will be paying tax. The more places you can conveniently park up and charge your car, the more opportunities they have to make money off you.

 

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Does Skoda know how to contact you to make changes to your Mk1 Octavia? 

There are tens thousands of EV's out there without over-the-air update capability. Just as many no longer has relationship with main dealers due to EV powertrain don't need servicing. 

 

On the same train of thought: per-mile tax is the fairest type of road-usage tax. You drive more, you pay more. 

You seems to be really struggling with the idea that energy going into EV battery can be taken out for other things that are often associated with low taxes (home energy) or zero tax (grid stability support). Both of those examples are needed to bring more renwables into the grid. 

 

Is my Mk1 Octavia an EV?

Actually, it's a moot point, as the car has a registration plate and the UK has ANPR along with a number of other methods by which checks can be made and vehicles located. If it's a legal requirement to update cars without wireless connectivity, it's easily done... but unlike other reasons to collar someone (theft being the main example) this one is about making money, rather than spending it on prosecution. Making money is important for the government, y'see.  This is why crimes go unsolved, yet HMRC always catch up to you.

 

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

On the same train of thought: per-mile tax is the fairest type of road-usage tax. You drive more, you pay more. 

You seems to be really struggling with the idea that energy going into EV battery can be taken out for other things that are often associated with low taxes (home energy) or zero tax (grid stability support). Both of those examples are needed to bring more renwables into the grid. 

 

End use doesn't matter. It's the initial charge-up that is being taxed, because that is the point of useage being measured.

No-one cares if you use a million kWh to power your home, or save the whales, you're still taking a million kWh or electricity so will be charged and taxed on it.

 

For someone who likes to leverage ad-hominem assertions regarding my understanding of things, you seem quite keen on missing such things yourself.

 

[wyx087]

I just don't think Government will part seas only to tax energy going into EV's for the sole reason that other consumables are taxed this way.

There's more things to consider than "charge up for driving". National grid is acutely aware of this: 

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/net-zero-explained/electric-vehicles/evs-electricity

 

Ok, I'm done. You are welcome to disagree with me. Come back when EV usage tax happens and we'll see how usage actually get taxed. No point arguing what-if's. 

 

 

[Ttaskmaster]

You're getting bogged down in irrelevant details.

You take electricity out, you get charged for it. Simple as.

 

Miles driven is NOT a fair tax - Not only because some vehicles are more efficient than others, but because on that single battery charge you might drive a thousand miles with it, or you might use it all up sitting in your car watching films on the ICE screen, or you might run your home heating off it.... but you're still putting a taxable resource into your battery and THAT'S the part you're paying for.

 

[wyx087]

15 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Miles driven is NOT a fair tax - Not only because some vehicles are more efficient than others, but because on that single battery charge you might drive a thousand miles with it, or you might use it all up sitting in your car watching films on the ICE screen, or you might run your home heating off it.... but you're still putting a taxable resource into your battery and THAT'S the part you're paying for.

Just want to clarify: I totally agree the former, efficiency need to be taken into account.

 

But even just adding fuel-duty taxing all energy that goes into the car is not as simple as you are making out, let along the disregard for V2G/V2H.

 

We'll just have to wait and see how it actually happens.

[Ootohere]

Registration plates in the UK are the biggest joke.

Stick or screw on to any vehicle from any other vehicle.   The ANPR will read numbers at some cameras. Big deal.  It might or might not be that car.

 

Plug an EV into charge and it could be known where it is or was.

The tech could be easily installed and 'tamper proof'.   Well as far as anything is tamper proof, which it is not.

 

My car thinks it knows where it is an where it is parked, and where and when charging.

Well that never worked, it is my phone that it knows where it was last with.  I can leave the car in the UK and leave the country with my phone and it shows the car as where i am.

 

It also did OTA updates and went back to factory settings and lost miles off the Digital Dashboard, ECU and Phone App. 

 

The thing with Tech in the UK and RoW is some is pretty crap, thankfully. 

Edited 22 November, 2022 by toot

[Ttaskmaster]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just want to clarify: I totally agree the former, efficiency need to be taken into account.

 

But even just adding fuel-duty taxing all energy that goes into the car is not as simple as you are making out, let along the disregard for V2G/V2H.

 

We'll just have to wait and see how it actually happens.

 

It's a total disregard for V2G/H because that is about how you, the individual, specifically chooses to use it, not a straightforward and equal taxation on all users.

EVs are not the resource, here, electricity is and the simplest, fairest way, as with fuel, water, gas and so many other such resources is to charge and tax at point of delivery. What happens after that is not the taxman's concern.

 

[Ootohere]

Sounds simple. It should be with Electricity.

 

Cheapest public EV charging i can get now that is not free is 16 pence a kWh for low charging anytime and most expensive is now at £1 which some might pay. 

Quicker charging locally is 23 pence to 79 pence.

That is quite a difference as far as i see it.

 

 

So even Super Markets are currently overcharging for Petrol & Diesel by what the market price is and what they bought it at and the HMRC / Treasury is taking the Duty and VAT (Tax) on the higher price.   It is all a **** Up in a Brewery.   Actually Tax on that is also a total Horlicks. 

 

Then people are taxed and as a business claim back VAT, even on buying Electric for their vehicles sold to them at Public Chargers. 

Edited 22 November, 2022 by toot

[wyx087]

24 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

It's a total disregard for V2G/H because that is about how you, the individual, specifically chooses to use it, not a straightforward and equal taxation on all users.

EVs are not the resource, here, electricity is and the simplest, fairest way, as with fuel, water, gas and so many other such resources is to charge and tax at point of delivery. What happens after that is not the taxman's concern.

 

I'm sorry, but that's where we disagree.

 

The batteries in EV are the most valuable resources that can be used to reduce cost of electricity for everyone. The massive fleet of EV's that are not being driven can be used to help match demand to supply. If tax were to applied to all energy that goes into EV and not deducted for home or grid use, no one will sign up for V2H/V2G. This would mean more use of expensive peaker plants needed and in turn EVERYONE's electricity cost increase.

 

What happens after energy goes into the car IS National Grid and government's concern if they don't want rolling blackouts and meeting the Paris agreement. Government sets the tax, taxman only collects.

[Ootohere]

Thank goodness that the top half of the UK can easily produce electricity.

Obviously not all EV's are as inefficient as mine when it is cold, but in the last few days i would be lucky on local short trips to get 90 miles out of a 45 kW usable battery.

 

Storing electricity in my battery would be hopeless.  There must be many more like mine that are not happy when cold. 

 

Thank goodness i am charging at no cost to me still. 

[Ttaskmaster]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I'm sorry, but that's where we disagree.

 

The batteries in EV are the most valuable resources that can be used to reduce cost of electricity for everyone. The massive fleet of EV's that are not being driven can be used to help match demand to supply. If tax were to applied to all energy that goes into EV and not deducted for home or grid use, no one will sign up for V2H/V2G. This would mean more use of expensive peaker plants needed and in turn EVERYONE's electricity cost increase.

 

What happens after energy goes into the car IS National Grid and government's concern if they don't want rolling blackouts and meeting the Paris agreement. Government sets the tax, taxman only collects.

 

Deductions can come later if, and when, you are able to provide documented proof of return-use scenarios and the quantities therein. But until you are able to do that, again likely through smart technology, you will be stiuck with the basic taxation at point of delivery.

It's like asking for seeds to be cheaper because you'll be selling the fruit to feed starving children, who will grow up to be farmers that eventually produce more seeds.... but you still need to use the seeds first, which is why they'd be paid for and taxed up front.