EV car tax

[Ootohere]

Ps. Vintage / classic cars will be staying exempt from VED.  Including those converted to EV,s.  

[landroverbodger]

ved car tax same thing different name. the system we use now is just crazy. when i was looking to buy my skoda superb it was find a car and see what the tax is . two cars the same model can have different rates . all cars should pay the same those with bigger cars oar doing more miles will pay more in fuel duty.

[Ootohere]

Those bigger cars might have just a driver in and 2 big cars are taking the space on gridlock roads of 3 small cars and doing more damaged to road surfaces, maybe making more brake and tyre dust.   But then big fat heavy ev,s are as bad.  Maybe just less brake dust.  Maybe more tyre wear.  But then there is VAT to pay on tyres. 

Edited 18 November, 2022 by toot

[landroverbodger]

4 minutes ago, toot said:

Those bigger cars might have just a driver in and 2 big cars are taking the space on gridlock roads of 3 small cars and doing more damaged to road surfaces, maybe making more brake and tyre dust.   But then big fat heavy ev,s are as bad.  Maybe just less brake dust.  Maybe more tyre wear.  But then there is VAT to pay on tyres. 

no system will ever make everybody happy. it will always seem unfair to some. 

[Ootohere]

Many have done well over the decades.  They think what they are buying.  They do not expect retrospective charging.     But taxing by Square foot of vehicles and weight traveling in cities with company cars and private cars with empty seats never going to happen.    There are road sensors that weigh vehicles crossing them and the tax class from anpr is known.  Taxing inappropriate vehicles or high emitters of emissions never bothers those with plenty money.   VED is of no concern to many drives. 

[cheezemonkhai]

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

the Expensive Car Supplement exemption for electric vehicles is due to end in 2025. New zero emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025 will therefore be liable for the expensive car supplement. The Expensive Car Supplement currently applies to cars with a list price exceeding £40,000 for 5 years

Ouch!

 

So £10 year 1 then £165 or £520 for any EV over £40k, which is most of them. That makes an EV expensive to own from 2025 unless electric prices drop.

 

I wonder what they’d do with hydrogen cars. Tax the car, tax the fuel or both?

 

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, littleade said:

It's not only the ved the chancellor is missing out on. The EV owners don't pay the massive amounts of tax the rest of us pay on fuel so it surely can't be long before that has to change too? 

Don't worry, that (usage based tax) will come in due course, probably 2030-2035. Question is, how it'll be implemented to make it not excessively unfair and enforceable. 

 

Tax public charging: unfair to those without private charging. Tax all electricity, unfair to non drivers. Tax EV chargers, unenforceable. So I think the solution isn't a dogmatic transpose of liquid fuel duty, where tax is applied at point of dispense. The batteries in EV are too flexible for that. 

 

9 hours ago, toot said:

But then there is as much burning of oil and gas and coal going on producing electricity now and long into the future.  

This is indeed the current trend, due to poor investment in renewables: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1107502/Energy_Trends_September_2022.pdf

 

But my energy monitor tells me my electricity is over 70% non fossil fuel year-to-date as majority of my use is overnight at 7.5p/kWh. 

Meanwhile, National Grid are prepared to pay £3/kWh during peak time for people to reduce their usage. 

Comparing the 2, it speaks volume about the cost of electricity at different times and the effect of expensive fossil fuel plants on energy pricing due to inflexible demand. 

 

59 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Ouch!

 

So £10 year 1 then £165 or £520 for any EV over £40k, which is most of them. That makes an EV expensive to own from 2025 unless electric prices drop.

 

I wonder what they’d do with hydrogen cars. Tax the car, tax the fuel or both?

I expect over next 2 years we'll see more sub-£40k cars hit the market. Or at very least ID3 style trim levels. This is a good thing and much needed. 

 

Hydrogen cars are classed as zero emission, so will be treated the same as BEV in terms of VED.

I think there must be same amount of tax on all other types of hydrogen fuel except green hydrogen. Simply because all other types of hydrogen is just fossil fuel with progressively worse level of emission when making it, from waste of effort to much worse than ICE fossil fuel cars. 

[Ootohere]

Tax drivers of private cars.    So the people as well as vehicles by miles travelled.   Or parked on the roads, public places.  A driver is only driving one vehicle at a time.    Then the same with business users / taxi / couriers.  They can only drive one vehicle at any time.    So micro chip human beings and use tech to track travel, speed of travel.   

[Ttaskmaster]

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

How are smart meters going to understand if the high usage is car, home battery, or home-battery-car? .

 

It should be pretty easy to get the car and charger to handshake, which is how they'd then know if the charger was charging a car or not. That tech has been in widespread use since the 1970s.

But the car is also smart and connected to the internet (for all yer software updates), so can report whether it was being charged from a charger or some other source, as well as simply reporting its mileage and making that directly chargeable regardless of charge source.

They won't give me any of the EVs in our work fleet, but I'm told they already have an automated mileage log on them.

[wyx087]

35 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

It should be pretty easy to get the car and charger to handshake, which is how they'd then know if the charger was charging a car or not. That tech has been in widespread use since the 1970s.

The energy going into the battery may not be used for driving though, vehicle-2-home, vehicle-2-load.

This method relies on the charger able to communicate to a central tax accounting server. Not all chargers are "smart". That is going to require many £1000 re-install of a perfectly working "dumb" charger or £650 repair bill whenever the optional "smart" feature fails (my podpoint quote to fix wifi module in my charger) Unless government is going to foot that bill like household smart meters, I can't see this will ever work as source of tax accounting. 

 

Also, in-line dumb chargers are wide spread and can still be bought now. The Tesla one can be connected up to 32 amp 1 phase or 3 phase unmetered "dumb" commando to charge at full speed.  Mandatory meter commando sockets? it's a sledge hammer to a trivial problem. 

 

35 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

But the car is also smart and connected to the internet (for all yer software updates), so can report whether it was being charged from a charger or some other source, as well as simply reporting its mileage and making that directly chargeable regardless of charge source.

This would be per-mile cost instead of tax at point of energy dispense. I think this is most probable.

 

But I'm not sure it will be through OEM equipment on older cars due to complete lack of accurate counting on all cars. How is OEM counting going to work for my Nissan Leaf that I can disable telemetric and hide certain trips from telemetrics? 

 

 

Edited 18 November, 2022 by wyx087

[classic]

Your smart meter will tell them when you have charged an ev at home and you can then be taxed accordingly.

[Ttaskmaster]

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The energy going into the battery may not be used for driving though, vehicle-2-home, vehicle-2-load.

This method relies on the charger able to communicate to a central tax accounting server. Not all chargers are "smart". That is going to require many £1000 re-install of a perfectly working "dumb" charger or £650 repair bill whenever the optional "smart" feature fails (my podpoint quote to fix wifi module in my charger) Unless government is going to foot that bill like household smart meters, I can't see this will ever work as source of tax accounting. 

 

Also, in-line dumb chargers are wide spread and can still be bought now. The Tesla one can be connected up to 32 amp 1 phase or 3 phase unmetered "dumb" commando to charge at full speed.  Mandatory meter commando sockets? it's a sledge hammer to a trivial problem. 

 

This would be per-mile cost instead of tax at point of energy dispense. I think this is most probable.

 

But I'm not sure it will be through OEM equipment on older cars due to complete lack of accurate counting on all cars. How is OEM counting going to work for my Nissan Leaf that I can disable telemetric and hide certain trips from telemetrics? 

 

 

The energy is going into a vehicle, so will be taxed. Simple as that.

What you then use it for is of no concern. It's gone into the vehicle just like fossil fuel, so will be taxed just as with fossil fuel.

Mandatory smart charger roll-out will be more easily done en-masse anyway, and yes it will cost many thousands... and yes, you will be the one to pay for it. That's just how the world works... and yes, that is generally how smart meters are funded.

 

Oh, and just so you don't get the bright idea to try and fiddle the charge source with some hairbrained dumb charger connection to an alternate source - The car itself can also report on being charged, which will be implemented by mandatory software update.

The option to disable telemetrics can easily be locked down, I'm sure. IT departments can already remotely access your PC and lock down a plethora of settings, from USB access to file management and even the clock.

 

Going electric and having all this fancy electronical gubbins in yer motor has basically enabled remote access and control for most of your motoring experience, now.

[Ootohere]

So as things are supposed to be going the EV,s charging or plugged in at homes or businesses or any placed are supposed to become part of the UK,s energy security.   Vehicles taking in and storing electricity off peak for the National Grid or more local usage.   This being because of the lack of investment in storing electricity from renewables.    Presently wind farms are paid when their electricity is not required. 

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, Ttaskmaster said:

The energy is going into a vehicle, so will be taxed. Simple as that.

What you then use it for is of no concern. It's gone into the vehicle just like fossil fuel, so will be taxed just as with fossil fuel.

Mandatory smart charger roll-out will be more easily done en-masse anyway, and yes it will cost many thousands... and yes, you will be the one to pay for it. That's just how the world works... and yes, that is generally how smart meters are funded.

 

Oh, and just so you don't get the bright idea to try and fiddle the charge source with some hairbrained dumb charger connection to an alternate source - The car itself can also report on being charged, which will be implemented by mandatory software update.

The option to disable telemetrics can easily be locked down, I'm sure. IT departments can already remotely access your PC and lock down a plethora of settings, from USB access to file management and even the clock.

 

Going electric and having all this fancy electronical gubbins in yer motor has basically enabled remote access and control for most of your motoring experience, now.

Again, you are forgetting EV are part of energy solution: demand shaping. The storage buffer capability they provide will make cheap renewable actually viable and overall energy much cheaper for everyone. Taxing this or dis-incentivise use of EV battery for other uses will push up cost of other form of energy storage (due to unnecessary higher demand for duplicated function hardware), push up cost of energy, and push up cost of EVERYTHING.

 

No, smart meter does not know what is being charged. It only reports overall home usage. If it tries to guess what is being used, how can it distinguish between EV charging, home battery charging, Zero Emission Boiler charging or just immersion heater?

 

Sure, you can do all that (from thousands of unnecessary charger re-install, to getting manufacturers on board to update cars that are long out of warranty) all for bring in a dogmatic tax based purely on previous liquid fuel ideology. Just because horses can feed off grass, doesn't mean motor vehicles can re-energise from a grass field. Just because steam trains were on tracks, doesn't mean cars couldn't go off road. Just because liquid fuel were taxed per litre, doesn't mean EV must be taxed per kWh.

[J.R.]

I admire your optimism, you only need to look back one or two decades to see unleaded fuels or diesel being initially incentivised and then heavily taxed, same deal with CO2 ratings and road tax.

 

Another clue as to the way the wind is blowing is that cheaper off peak electricity is nowhere near as beneficial as it once was, to have it you pay a higher standing charge (in France at least, I'm not up to speed with the latest UK offers) and pay well over the odds for the rest of your daytime consumption, that is definitely happening in the UK, also the off peak hours have dropped from 8 to what is it now, 4 hours a night? Hardly incentivising when you look in detail.

 

Here in France its 8 hours off peak, the start and finish times are staggered to reduce the changeover load, many people have a plage d'horaires where they get 6 hours off peak at night and another 2 hours at mid-day, that was excellent for people cooking lunch, putting the washing machine, drier or dishwasher on etc, also very good for storage heaters.

 

Because of the limited generating capacity this winter they have made a very swift law amendment allowing them to remove the 2 hour mid-day cheap rate from October through to March and its already implemented, they say it only affects immersion heaters (which is what people associate off peak tarif with) which is a complete lie and anyone with the slightest technical knowledge would realise that consumers are paying a higher price for every appliance consuming electricity during those 2 hours, more even than households on a standard tariff but it goes unchallenged and all the media even the QueChoisir the equivalent of Which Magazine are naively trotting out the same rubbish.

 

Your SmartMeters are a lot smarter than you realise and whoever runs the National Grid can cut down the maximum load you can draw at any time or cut you off remotely, with that amount of control it's highly unlikely that there would ever actually be any power cuts, just a reduction in what you can consume and when.

Edited 18 November, 2022 by J.R.

[VRS_White_Hatch]

The "Specialist vehicle disposal or recycling charge" will be the next tax. Electric vehicle owners will have to pay a tax because of the environmental impact of their vehicles at end of life. 

[J.R.]

Good point!

[Ootohere]

I have never known a poor Scrappy in my life.   There is value on the dismantling and salvage and recycling and the industry is geared up for the disposal of EV.s.  Their issue is that the batteries and motors are in such high demand for the 2nd life use just now that they are not scrap.  Or requiring 'extermenation'. 

[Gmac983]

The vehicles themselves need to be taxed equally as they are all taking up space on the road and causing wear and tear on the road network. Traditionally as others have said if you are a high miler then you use more fuel and therefore pay more tax  if you use less you pay less tax. Why not introduce a card or an app that basically is required to “un-lock” the vehicle and allow it to be charged (or an add on to the myriad charging apps already out there) so when charging the vehicle, tax is applied respectively and this would be at home/private charging or public equally. If charge-2-home or charge-2-load is being done then same card or app would be used to refund some of tax. As far as retrospective is concerned, a line would need to be drawn and just move forward from there. As far as I can see it would be far to complex/expensive and unfair to apply retrospectively to the early adopters of the tech as they have already payed more (for the vehicle) than comparible ICE.

In any event we can speculate til dooms day, it while be those we elect who make all the wrong decisions in the end anyway.

Edited 19 November, 2022 by Gmac983

[Ootohere]

^^^^ great idea.  Tax the cars by the miles driven or parked on road by the use of GPS.  And also by how much. Electricity they use annually and miles covered.      Once the UK can have full GPS and mobile coverage it can work.   Also when the Non Tamper legislation is in place.    Also the UK can have the DVLA database showing all registers keepers and cars being insured.   That means they could block cars illegally on the roads getting charged on the national grid. Or just shut them down over the air.  

[cheezemonkhai]

19 hours ago, toot said:

^^^^ great idea.  Tax the cars by the miles driven or parked on road by the use of GPS.  And also by how much. Electricity they use annually and miles covered.      Once the UK can have full GPS and mobile coverage it can work.   Also when the Non Tamper legislation is in place.    Also the UK can have the DVLA database showing all registers keepers and cars being insured.   That means they could block cars illegally on the roads getting charged on the national grid. Or just shut them down over the air.  

Sounds truly soul destroying. Not allowed to tamper with the white good car and being tracked everywhere.

 

No thanks.

just increase VED, leave VAT on fast charging at 20% and add a weight/efficiency element for EV..

Edited 20 November, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Ootohere]

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/15715  You can watch the smart people with vested interests and politicians who are clueless. 

 

Well the Anti-tampering is coming in.

They have to.

http://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards

 

And in the UK where you do not even need an ID card because the Politicians are crapping themselves that the Government might get caught out that they do not know who is where or when.

So for now actually ID and tracking generally is not on the cards.   We might know what people are up to. 

 

Well other than if Voting....

 

 

Edited 19 November, 2022 by toot

[cheezemonkhai]

Killing the modification industry in one fell swoop….

 

The car manufacturers absolutely wouldn’t love that to happen so that they can charge £10k for a new plastic badge and a mild remap.🙄

Edited 20 November, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[Gmac983]

I wouldn’t say tracking your whereabouts or miles clocked up is necessary. Or indeed barring after market modifications. Just taxing the kilowatts used to charge your vehicle and a rebate on that if vehicle 2 home or vehicle 2 load is used and/or a higher rate of tax on fast charging. At the end of the day current fuel duty makes a far greater contribution to government purse than road tax. 

[Ootohere]

Tracking business users is exactly what needs doing with EV's or ICE fleets when so much financial assistance is given including claiming back VAT on public charging.

 

Lots of big fat EV's are trucking about just as with ICE vehicles not being that efficient and the drivers really do not care even if BIK does help financially, 

they have the car for their wants more than needs.