Skoda Fabia Vrs CAVE. Interference or not

[Ragadyman]

Hey there, 

 

Is the 2011 Fabia Vrs CAVE engine an interference engine or not?

 

bolt on crank came loose and it stalled.

 

checked timing and the cranks out to the cams (cam chain hasn’t moved, just the crank sprocket slipped out the crank lock) 

 

im gonna time it up again, but not sure on what potential damage might be done.

 

if it’s non interference hopefully no damage.

 

any knowledge would be appreciated.

[sepulchrave]

I believe it is an interference engine but you'll soon find out!

 

How on god's green earth did the crank pulley bolt come loose?

[thomasaspin]

It’s an interference engine driven by a chain 

[Ragadyman]

Ok thanks.

 

🤞🏼not to much damage.🤦🏼‍♂️

[sepulchrave]

13 minutes ago, Ragadyman said:

Ok thanks.

 

🤞🏼not to much damage.🤦🏼‍♂️

 

Valve train damage is a binary state I'm afraid, there either is damage or there isn't.

 

I'd still love to know how that bolt came loose, did you do something stupid?

[Ragadyman]

8 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

Valve train damage is a binary state I'm afraid, there either is damage or there isn't.

 

I'd still love to know how that bolt came loose, did you do something stupid?

not entirely sure yet, I’ll find out when I get the cam chain cover off, bolt unscrewed, belt came off and it shut down.

 

With the bolt loose the sprocket can just turn, crank /sprocket locator is 1mm, terrible design. Most cars have a key lock.

 

anyways, I’ll sort it.

 

thanks for the reply

[Ragadyman]

28 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

Valve train damage is a binary state I'm afraid, there either is damage or there isn't.

 

I'd still love to know how that bolt came loose, did you do something stupid?

Do you know if the dsg has some sort of “safe mode” as when it stalled it kicked it out of dsg and it wouldn’t engage anything, 

I span the engine(didn’t know the timing was out) and it seemed to go back into gears again.🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️

[sepulchrave]

3 minutes ago, Ragadyman said:

Do you know if the dsg has some sort of “safe mode” as when it stalled it kicked it out of dsg and it wouldn’t engage anything, 

I span the engine(didn’t know the timing was out) and it seemed to go back into gears again.🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️

 

A DSG gearbox should not allow you select gears when the engine isn't running since they can't mesh properly, it's not a true automatic, it's a dual clutch robotised manual with alternating gears on each input shaft.

[J.R.]

Twin layshafts with clutches to engage and disconnect the drive from each one, the predicted or selected next gear is pre-engaged with the clutch disconnected, the gearchange is effected by the releasing of one clutch (the current gear) simultaneous with the engagement of the other clutch for the next gear, a very clever system but which makes for a very heavy transmission and the risk of instant shrapnel if the first clutch does not release.

 

My guess is the OP has recently done or had done a cambelt change, don't ask me how I know 😳

[Ootohere]

Wrong guess.

It has a timing chain, so maybe that and tensioner.

[thomasaspin]

The Dsg wouldn’t work with engine stalled as the spinning of the engine spins the Dsg shafts which in turn creates hydraulic pressure to engage / change gears  

[Ragadyman]

I’ll find out hopefully tomorrow after taking the cam chain cover off, but realistically I might not know why it came loose. Just gotta time it up and turn the key. If it runs rough I’ll have to take head off and asses damage.

 

 

[Ootohere]

@RagadymanWhat were you actually doing with your car, was it just an oil change and letting the tensioner lose tension and the chain jump, or were you actually replacing the chain?

[Crasher]

There is a retro fit diamond disc conversion to stop this happening.

[Ragadyman]

52 minutes ago, toot said:

@RagadymanWhat were you actually doing with your car, was it just an oil change and letting the tensioner lose tension and the chain jump, or were you actually replacing the chain?

The cars new to me, came with some issues which I fixed, then this randomly happened.

21 minutes ago, Crasher said:

There is a retro fit diamond disc conversion to stop this happening.

Oh…do you have a link please?

[Ragadyman]

33 minutes ago, Ragadyman said:

The cars new to me, came with some issues which I fixed, then this randomly happened.

Oh…do you have a link please?

54 minutes ago, Crasher said:

There is a retro fit diamond disc conversion to stop this happening.

Ah…..penny dropped.🤦🏼‍♂️

[Crasher]

Sorry for the late reply, Thinking about it yours should already have the Diamond washers but they must not be reused so the kit 03C 198 159 A is a little cheaper at £67.44 than all three parts separately (the bush is often worn on the seal point) plus you need a new O ring although these come in many chain kits such as Febi and FAI. You must use a new bolt which is 21mm now instead of 19mm and critically the pulley must be counter held against turning using tool T30004 with the crank blocking peg T10340 still fitted and the bolt torqued to 150 Nm + a further 180° (1/2 turn).

 

1) Bolt N 910 486 01

2) Pulley

3) Diamond washer WHT 001 877

4) Teflon seal (must be installed dry

5) Bush 03C 105 159 H

6) O ring  N 909 032 01

7) Diamond washer WHT 005 162

 

 

 

 

 

[Ragadyman]

3 hours ago, Crasher said:

Sorry for the late reply, Thinking about it yours should already have the Diamond washers but they must not be reused so the kit 03C 198 159 A is a little cheaper at £67.44 than all three parts separately (the bush is often worn on the seal point) plus you need a new O ring although these come in many chain kits such as Febi and FAI. You must use a new bolt which is 21mm now instead of 19mm and critically the pulley must be counter held against turning using tool T30004 with the crank blocking peg T10340 still fitted and the bolt torqued to 150 Nm + a further 180° (1/2 turn).

 

1) Bolt N 910 486 01

2) Pulley

3) Diamond washer WHT 001 877

4) Teflon seal (must be installed dry

5) Bush 03C 105 159 H

6) O ring  N 909 032 01

7) Diamond washer WHT 005 162

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this info.

 

engine comes out this weekend, it’s done 100,000 miles so are going to do rebuild and see if any damage on the valves.

so difficult to remove timing chain cover with the space in engine compartment, not impossible but I’m going to inspect all working parts anyway.

[Crasher]

I refuse to rebuild them after the misery the last one caused me.

[Ragadyman]

1 hour ago, Crasher said:

I refuse to rebuild them after the misery the last one caused me.

Do tell. Any knowledge on this engine is appreciated.

[Ootohere]

@thomasaspinor @Mickmartinmight be able to help answer anything that you need answering.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/478545-fabia-mk2-vrs-the-red-baron

 

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/489286-question

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/466202-cave-14-twincharger-piston-help

 

[Crasher]

20 minutes ago, Ragadyman said:

Do tell. Any knowledge on this engine is appreciated.

 

Take a seat, this is a long one! In February 2020 we had a Scirocco come in with the CAVD version, it was smoking and misfiring so I gave it to one of my lads to do a compression test which showed two cylinders down so he dropped the sump, chain cover and chain system off and pulled the head, when the cam carrier was off we found one of the fingers out of position and it had mangled the inlet cam and the carrier, it was clear it had been apart before. He flipped it over and filled the chambers with brake cleaner and all the exhaust valves leaked so he stripped it and took it to the engineers for exhaust guides, vales, skim and pressure test. I noticed the bores were so shiny you could do your makeup in them so whilst the head was away we got permission to pull them and hone the bores plus fit new rings and shells but when we put the pistons on the bench our mobile visiting engineer noticed the ring land of two had gone, and I mean gone, no trace of the missing metal!

 

So, I ordered a set of Nural pistons, KS bearings, Elring gaskets, head and rod bolts, Febi lifters, fingers, oil cooler, FAI timing chain kit, oil pump and inlet cam plus second hand cam carrier (I know, I know) and he built the engine back up. Plugs out primed and then started, it sounded like a skeleton masturbating in a biscuit tin and a quick check showed barely 2 Bar oil pressure when revved, sod all at idle. Yes it had a new VVT hub, solenoid and oil tube as well!

 

The only thing we could think of was the oil jets as we had removed them for honing and reused them, sump off, new jets (difficult to do with the crank in the way and ran it up... no difference, so we dropped the sump AGAIN and decided the KS bearings felt sloppy so we fitted Glyco, built it up, no difference...FFS! We put the original pump on, again, no difference. Then the world went into meltdown and everyone except me and my business partner went on a three month holiday on full pay as we topped it up out of our own pockets.

 

As there wasn't much work in (thank God for our eBay shops) I pulled the whole engine out and gutted it on the bench, I found the block was badly warped so our engineers decked and hot tanked it, then I meticulously inspected it, core plugs out, and smoke tested for leaks. I built it back up with a genuine new oil pump, Glyco bearings, the new jets, new bolts, the new pistons, engineer checked and polished crank which I Plastigauge checked the clearances on and brand new FULL genuine head with new lifters and fingers again plus a new genuine cam carrier with the pervious cam setup and basically built it as I always do, no compromises except I didn't paint the block as normal... even a new Febi rear crank oil seal; literally the only original parts of the base unit were the cam chain cover, bare block, crank and rods but all meticulously cleaned and checked.

 

I fitted and primed it and when I started it it sounded awful and STILL had no oil pressure, I was baffled, never experienced anything like it in 42 year of building VAG engines. I just gave up, ordered a new base unit from TPS and ****ed it off, I calculated that cockup cost us £25k and just at the worst possible time.

 

What REALLY hurt is to get the exchange the engine had to go back but we did put the original head and cam carrier on plus the old oil pump. One interesting point with the new engine was it cam with a brand new block and recon head but also a new timing chain cover and this had been a suspect during build but I could not see a fault.

[Ootohere]

Base engines in a crate were selling at £3,600 or less 7 years back. 

Edited 3 March, 2023 by toot

[Ragadyman]

1 hour ago, Crasher said:

 

Take a seat, this is a long one! In February 2020 we had a Scirocco come in with the CAVD version, it was smoking and misfiring so I gave it to one of my lads to do a compression test which showed two cylinders down so he dropped the sump, chain cover and chain system off and pulled the head, when the cam carrier was off we found one of the fingers out of position and it had mangled the inlet cam and the carrier, it was clear it had been apart before. He flipped it over and filled the chambers with brake cleaner and all the exhaust valves leaked so he stripped it and took it to the engineers for exhaust guides, vales, skim and pressure test. I noticed the bores were so shiny you could do your makeup in them so whilst the head was away we got permission to pull them and hone the bores plus fit new rings and shells but when we put the pistons on the bench our mobile visiting engineer noticed the ring land of two had gone, and I mean gone, no trace of the missing metal!

 

So, I ordered a set of Nural pistons, KS bearings, Elring gaskets, head and rod bolts, Febi lifters, fingers, oil cooler, FAI timing chain kit, oil pump and inlet cam plus second hand cam carrier (I know, I know) and he built the engine back up. Plugs out primed and then started, it sounded like a skeleton masturbating in a biscuit tin and a quick check showed barely 2 Bar oil pressure when revved, sod all at idle. Yes it had a new VVT hub, solenoid and oil tube as well!

 

The only thing we could think of was the oil jets as we had removed them for honing and reused them, sump off, new jets (difficult to do with the crank in the way and ran it up... no difference, so we dropped the sump AGAIN and decided the KS bearings felt sloppy so we fitted Glyco, built it up, no difference...FFS! We put the original pump on, again, no difference. Then the world went into meltdown and everyone except me and my business partner went on a three month holiday on full pay as we topped it up out of our own pockets.

 

As there wasn't much work in (thank God for our eBay shops) I pulled the whole engine out and gutted it on the bench, I found the block was badly warped so our engineers decked and hot tanked it, then I meticulously inspected it, core plugs out, and smoke tested for leaks. I built it back up with a genuine new oil pump, Glyco bearings, the new jets, new bolts, the new pistons, engineer checked and polished crank which I Plastigauge checked the clearances on and brand new FULL genuine head with new lifters and fingers again plus a new genuine cam carrier with the pervious cam setup and basically built it as I always do, no compromises except I didn't paint the block as normal... even a new Febi rear crank oil seal; literally the only original parts of the base unit were the cam chain cover, bare block, crank and rods but all meticulously cleaned and checked.

 

I fitted and primed it and when I started it it sounded awful and STILL had no oil pressure, I was baffled, never experienced anything like it in 42 year of building VAG engines. I just gave up, ordered a new base unit from TPS and ****ed it off, I calculated that cockup cost us £25k and just at the worst possible time.

 

What REALLY hurt is to get the exchange the engine had to go back but we did put the original head and cam carrier on plus the old oil pump. One interesting point with the new engine was it cam with a brand new block and recon head but also a new timing chain cover and this had been a suspect during build but I could not see a fault.

Sounds like quite a journey.

 

when mine was running, top end was noisy,

Didn’t sound like mains/big ends. Could be cam chain I guess but defo came from top.

 

is there some sort of valve adjustment in these heads??

20 minutes ago, toot said:

Base engines in a crate were selling at £3,600 or less 7 years back. 

Won’t be going down that road then.🤞🏼

[Ootohere]

There are always a variety of used and refurbed going about from under £1000 to whatever price.

Very much a lottery just as buying a Twincharger car is..