Towing at a crawl with the DSG Auto?

[reliantreviver]

Weighing up the possible options for replacing my old Mitsubishi Pajero, which is a great tow vehicle but no longer suiting our overall needs.  

 

Very much like the idea of a 2.0l TDI Yeti 4x4  but would have to be an auto. I have no prior experience of DSG gearboxes. Are they content with being put under hefty load at low speed? I ask as my (400kg empty) trailer is stored down a perilous access road, and getting it out requires going up a very severe slope and round a corner - a manoeuvre that is best done at a crawl.  

 

thoughts and input welcome, am i barking up the wrong tree on this one?

[Ootohere]

The Yeti will be fine with a 6 speed wet clutch DSG & good tyres, just put it in D and off you go up that hill and round those corners. 

Is your old Pajero a manual or Auto?

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/434939-towing-with-a-yeti

 

Edited 29 March, 2023 by toot

[reliantreviver]

Welllll I said Pajero, but really it's a Delica although that's usually met with blank stares. Much the same though mechanically, 3.0L V6 Petrol, 4spd auto, hi/lo range but I just use it in 4H to tow up the slope, which it manages very well, even if stopping and starting off again on the incline. I don't even hate it for having averaged 17mpg in it's time with me! But the kids have outgrown the middle row seating and the back row is redundant. 

 

I've found a few good old threads commending the Yeti for it's manoeuvrability and also relating to the 140 and 170 being very capable with the DSG as a towcar. But i have to admit to a lacking a total understanding of the DSG clutch system. Am I going to harm it if I do stop off and start again under heavy load  up a slope? 

 

 

 

 

[reliantreviver]

Hadn't found that thread though toot, so thanks for the link! Interesting to see your experiences with the Jimny aswell. I was all set to get a later auto for the purpose for shifting the trailer and using locally, but ended up discounting it on the basis I'd have to effectively run it with the front axle de-activated to enable it to pull up in 4 Low but only driving the rear wheels for fear of wrecking the centre diff. 

 

Dug up a pic of the "situation" here. Even this doesn't give a true appreciation of how ridiculously steep it is! 

 

 

[Ootohere]

I would think a Yeti 2.0 TDI DSG will be perfect for there & anyplace else.

Just be sure any you are thinking on have had the DSG serviced every 40,000 miles and the Haldex on a 4x4 is at 3 years / 30,000 miles or sooner. 

 

PS

My automatic Jimny's were from when they came with a shifter for the transfer box, so pre switch / electrics, has no ABS, & also had the vacuum system done away with and ran in AWD in 4 low or 4 high, different locked front hubs fitted.

The Orange auto one had Axles off a manual Jimny, Detroit lockers fitted and the gearing was very low.

Edited 29 March, 2023 by toot

[J.R.]

I would definitely go for the DSG and actively avoid a manual gearbox with the 2.0TDi engine if I were in your shoes.

 

Mine is a superb tow vehicle but hill starts towing fully laden with the very high first gear really burn the clutch and the smell is vomit inducing and hangs around for days.

 

Mine really could do with a hi-lo range transfer gearbox like a proper 4x4.

[J.R.]

That said 400kg is nothing compared to its towing capacity and ten times nothing compared to what it can actually tow and still manage hill starts.

 

Your issue is the need to go very slowly and i completely understand, DSG is the way to go but it would be good to hear from someone that has had to regularly abuse theirs in a similar situation to yours.

[reliantreviver]

Yeah, it's a light enough tug with an empty trailer (Ifor Williams single axle transporter, listed at a net weight of just 350kg!)
I've long since resigned myself to the fact I have to load it "up top", although it would be nice to find a combination that allows me to pull up in one precise movement, with the Delica and it's oil-tanker like turning circle, I actually have to stop half way, drop a pair of additional jockey wheels, and shunt the trailer sideways.

 

There's just no getting away from the hill being a bit of a nightmare for most vehicles, and 2wd things faced with it in the wet will soon start spinning a wheel, there's no doing it slow and steady in a manual, you just have to take your line and go for it to avoid bogging down. 

 

 

[Ootohere]

People use Yeti to launch watercraft on slipways and that includes the Coast Guard / Flood Rescue etc.

They are capable.

Front wheel slip does have the rear wheels getting used and that can work pretty well even with a Yeti reversed into water and then pulling a trailer and boat / jetski out. 

Tyres are obviously important. 

[darfash01]

Yep the Yeti will be a good choice, the DSG is a must, a really good to drive. We also have a lwb Pajero which are brilliant in the snow, etc., sadly we have to sell it for cost of living reasons. You won’t be disappointed with the Yeti, thuough we are having problems with ours at the moment.

[J.R.]

6 hours ago, reliantreviver said:

Yeah, it's a light enough tug with an empty trailer (Ifor Williams single axle transporter, listed at a net weight of just 350kg!)
 

I have one too and also a recent addition a twin axle dropside Ifor, both are very old, 33 years for one of them, the other not far short but aside from having been abused by builders all that time with zero maintenance the important bits, the chassis, axles & springs were all as new, brakes & couplings had all been worn out, seized and fallen off decades ago, it didn't cost a fortune to bring them back like new and they were worth it.

 

The dropside is I think 520kg bare pluse the dropsides, ramps, spare wheel etc, both of them I have derated to maximum 500kg laden weight (go figure!) so as to avoid registration, insurance etc which would be impossible as there were no EU conformity certificates back then.

6 hours ago, reliantreviver said:

 

There's just no getting away from the hill being a bit of a nightmare for most vehicles, and 2wd things faced with it in the wet will soon start spinning a wheel, there's no doing it slow and steady in a manual, you just have to take your line and go for it to avoid bogging down.

 

I know what you mean, I still have to do that to a degree in my Yeti but a DSG would be a really smart choice if the clutches can take it, if they are oil bath ones then I can see no problem, there will be little load due to the torque multiplication in first gear and you will be revving a lot less than I have to.

[reliantreviver]

All very encouraging responses. Guess I am hunting for a Yeti then. Might have to make do with a 140, as the 170bhp models are a bit thin on the ground it seems. I suppose aside from the brakes, it's just a remap's difference if I felt so inclined. Our 1.6 TDI fabia is mapped ( by previous owner) and quite an animal when the boost hoofs in! 

 

Delica moved on to it's new owner this evening, i probably sold it a little cheap on reflection, but still more than I paid for it 4 years ago!

 

As a side note I went to view a 1999 Cherokee XJ today, it's a bit of an itch that wants scratching. They are nice compact 4x4s with very capable towing characteristics , and arguably very excessively rated at 3500kg MAM! This one however was rough all over despite the strong price tag. A real turn off and brought me back down to reality a bit, just not sure I want an archaic old Jeep always needing my attention. The notion of another dependable Skoda that I can give minimal maintenance, and throw at a garage for everything else, does have it's appeal! 

 

 

[J.R.]

If you are open to remapping then buy the cheaper asthmatic 108hp 4x4 variant that I have, it was transformed with a circa £250 remap to supposedly 184hp, I reckon its the 170hp map.

 

I dont care what the ultimate power is, it now has the mid range and towing power that it lacked and which I needed, having a smaller turbo means it is more responsive low down, it will pull steadily from 850 rpm in top gear and with a wide open throttle from 1200 rpm, not that it is any way to drive it but it illustrates the torque & flexibility.

[J.R.]

I meant buy one like I have not buy my one, it's not for sale, it's a keeper!!!!

[reliantreviver]

How kind of you to offer yours

 

There's no immediate need to get one, so I shall bide my time and wait for the right one to come up. Wasn't even aware of the lower power version. 

 

Just deciding now if I should hold out for one with a towbar fitted, or budget to have this done, or even under-take the fitting myself. Have licensed VAG-com so can do any programming, but accept it may still be better to just cough up and have it all done by someone else.  

[J.R.]

Towbar was the easiest that I have ever done and really cheap, IIRC £110 all in.

 

Remove bumper, remove crash beam and discard, 2 bolts through each chassis rail & its done, OK a few bolts pre-assembling the sections on the bench before.

 

The lower part of the bumper unclips so you can nibble out the cut out using snips (or even scissors!) bit by bit presenting it back in place to see if & where it needs relieving.

 

The high impedance wiring relays work like a charm and do not load the circuit enough to disturb the bulb monitoring, the audible indicator warning is excellent and does not need faffing around spacing windings over a reed switch like in the past, it also changes pitch with volt drop so you can even test the rear lights and brake lights from the drivers seat  by listening to the change of pitch of the indicator audible warning.

[idleness]

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

The high impedance wiring relays work like a charm and do not load the circuit enough to disturb the bulb monitoring, the audible indicator warning is excellent and does not need faffing around spacing windings over a reed switch like in the past, it also changes pitch with volt drop so you can even test the rear lights and brake lights from the drivers seat  by listening to the change of pitch of the indicator audible warning.

Not the best way to wire a tow bar, a dedicated wiring kit and reprogramming of the ECU is the way to do it. Reprogramming gives you the towing  stability control, and disables the sensors  when  in reverse and a trailer is connected.

[J.R.]

I knew that would be not long in coming

 

I dont have reversing sensors and on the last vehicle that did they were not set off by the towed trailer & even if they were I would have just ignored them as I did most of the time when they were reacting to side walls etc not in my trajectory.

 

I do not want towing stability control, I have my own highly developed version refined over close to 50 years of towing that starts by avoiding the situations that I had already experienced and learned how to control, and that goes for general car control, reacting to and above all avoiding over and understeer, skidss etc, something modern drivers will never get to develop.

 

If I am ever unfortunate enough to end up with a vehicle where a pigeon has spent a small fortune on the towbar I will disconnect and uncode the electronic module and replace it with a modern relay, the last thing I want if ever I get into a tank slapper from a poids lourd overtaking too close at speed is to end up fighting the computer like a Boing 737 max.

 

Equally I dont want to be stuck laden a long way from home with non operational trailer lighting because "Computer says no!" nor do I want to have to use VCDS to see why something is not working, I carry the cable but not a laptop computer, my set up I can check with a multimeter.

Edited 30 March, 2023 by J.R.

[Llanigraham]

2 hours ago, idleness said:

Not the best way to wire a tow bar, a dedicated wiring kit and reprogramming of the ECU is the way to do it. Reprogramming gives you the towing  stability control, and disables the sensors  when  in reverse and a trailer is connected.

 

We've been down this street before.

Waste of time, JR thinks he knows better than VAG about towing electrics!

[J.R.]

Thankyou as ever for your kind words Graham.

 

I have been fitting towbars and regularly towing vehicles for close to 50 years, I know what works for me and I don't try to tell others what to do, they like me can make their own choices based on their own needs.

 

It would be nice if others were able to do the same rather than posting insults and awarding groan emojis.

[Schtum]

However, in those 50 years, things have evolved somewhat.  When my wife bought her first 4Motion Tiguan in 2011, I decided that we needed a tow bar on it and I'd be a cheapskate and not fit coded electrics.  

 

The result of that was that I managed to wear out the rear discs and pads in c. 20k miles.  Since the car didn't know that I had a trailer attached, it was obviously attempting to correct the forces at the rear 

by modulating the rear brakes much of the time that I was driving across local hill road in my usual enthusiastic fashion.  I've been driving and towing for 50 years and I'm an old hooligan and still drive like one.

 

Cue the next two Tiguans, her current Karoq and my Yeti being fitted with dedicated and coded electrics.  The rate of attrition to the rear brakes is greatly diminished even if I did manage to cook the front discs and 

pads on the Karoq at 18k miles and the Yeti at c. 12k.  I'm sure much of that is to the actions of XDS....😁

[EnterName]

10 hours ago, J.R. said:

Thankyou as ever for your kind words Graham.

 

I have been fitting towbars and regularly towing vehicles for close to 50 years, I know what works for me and I don't try to tell others what to do, they like me can make their own choices based on their own needs.

 

It would be nice if others were able to do the same rather than posting insults and awarding groan emojis.

I see both sides of the argument, here.

What I would highlight is what @Schtumpointed out, that things have progressed considerably in automotive technology in the last 50 years, and the car does an awful lot of clever things that drivers don't tend to notice are happening. However to do those things, the system has to know what it's dealing with. If you change the car without telling the XDS/haldex (and whatever other clever stuff is in the car's system to keep the driver pointing in the right direction) that they are no longer dealing with a vanilla Yeti, and now have a big lump of weight hanging off the back of the car, there are doubtless circumstances when the XDS/haldex may be inclined to do the "wrong" thing, because it doesn't know the car has half a ton (or more) of unexpected weight hanging off the back of it.

[J.R.]

I agree with modern drivers who have never known any different and who are being groomed to accept driverless cars, constant examples of that on this very forum.

 

I notice whats happening, I know what is happening, how and and why it is happening because I have invested my time to understand, I appreciate the benefits but I also know absolutely when I don't want these things to happen  when they would be counter-productive, thankfully at least some of the systems can be switched off, unfortunately that is far more of  a danger to the majority of todays drivers than it is a benefit to the few so will soon become a thing of the past.

 

I did a days instructing at Croix en Ternois circuit (very sinuous with 3 180° hairpin bends) I used my MK1 Octavia to show people the lines and for guest Hot Laps.

 

The car was not accelerating correctly out of the hairpins, important with a long straight to follow, the traction control was too aggressive for a circuit limiting the power, I could do far better myself modulating the throttle as I always have done (another skill lost to recent generations) however when I switched it off with the ASR (I think) button I found that I was no longer able to clip the centre apex on the corners with ease and was apexing early on exit, the car was understeering and adapting to it was reducing my corner exit speed, the cars trajectory control system even back then was better than mine, the traction control not so.

 

So I do indeed understand and appreciate the benefits to the majority but towing a laden trailer is a responsability, the aim is to avoid any potential situation,  you should never be driving anywhere near the limit where a vehicles stabilty control systems are solicitted except in an emergency evasive manouevre, the trouble is with these systems people don't even realise that their unladen driving is already invoking these systems as yoou cannot feel them and if they are looking at the road ahead instead of at their smartphones they will not register the momentary flashing of the dashboard icon. They are then likely to drive in a similar manner with a laden and perhaps negative noseweighted trailer.

 

Like I say, not for me, others are free to make their own choice and do what they wish with their money, you wont find me telling them they are wrong or should do as I do, all I ask is that others behave in a similar fashion.

[Ootohere]

Until new type approved cars from 2014 on there were many that included ones used for towing that did not have ESP as standard. (Not including the Yeti in this)

There were cars without ABS back in the day.  Even cars without power steering.

 

Times move on. If the car has been engineered to assist in towing being safer then there are reasons behind that.  Not everyone is a driving god.

Plenty still tow without Power steering, ABS or ESP and maybe with tyres more suited to offroad than on.

[Schtum]

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

I see both sides of the argument, here.

What I would highlight is what @Schtumpointed out, that things have progressed considerably in automotive technology in the last 50 years, and the car does an awful lot of clever things that drivers don't tend to notice are happening. However to do those things, the system has to know what it's dealing with. If you change the car without telling the XDS/haldex (and whatever other clever stuff is in the car's system to keep the driver pointing in the right direction) that they are no longer dealing with a vanilla Yeti, and now have a big lump of weight hanging off the back of the car, there are doubtless circumstances when the XDS/haldex may be inclined to do the "wrong" thing, because it doesn't know the car has half a ton (or more) of unexpected weight hanging off the back of it.

 

No XDS enabled on Yetis, although it can be done on facelift cars.  However, when the ASC senses the rear end wagging about, it applies the rear brakes to stabilise things.