Starter Keeps Running aften Engine start

[emilwkj]

I have a Felicia LX 1.3 MPI 1997
 

I have a question for you Guys.

i have just replaced both my starter and the bottom piece of the ignition switch.

 

Everything is working fine but one thing.

 

Now the starter doesn’t stop running automatically when the engine is running, but keeps running until I remove my hand from the key so the ignition switch pops back to “on”.

 

And even though the engine is running I can turn the key to crank and the starter runs and makes a very loud noise of course.

 

Now my question for you guys. In the Felicia isn’t there a mechanism to automatically retract / turn off the starter as soon as the engine is running, and a mechanism for preventing cranking while driving?

 

Or am I just remembering incorrectly.

 

it is very annoying that every time I start the car it makes a bad noise from the starter because It continues to run until I manually remove my hand from the key and the switch pops back.

 

[nta16]

21 minutes ago, emilwkj said:

and the bottom piece of the ignition switch

Sounds like something is wrong with the switch or its installation - best to check its installation and it.

 

Take photos of the wiring to the switch, the switch as installed, the switch part in the switch/lock mechanism and the switch out of the car front and back and note any numbers on the switch and post back as someone will know if you have the correct switch installed correctly.

 

Alternatively if it is a new modern made part it might (or might not) be faulty or poorly made.

 

[emilwkj]

Do you know if there is a sensor somewhere telling the starter to stop when the engine is running?

[nta16]

No sorry I don't (but doubt it), I don't know about relay either or wiring, or the car sorry I was just going on that you put "now" and that you had replaced the bottom piece of the ignition switch and following a general practice of checking the work done (or part replaced) as a starting point - but that assumes the problem wasn't there before you done the work as you put now.

 

You really need a specific wiring diagram for you model and year or VIN for your car to see what is where.

 

I only know the very old systems where the key turns a mechanism that moves to the switch 'plate' (my word/description) with the contacts and wires and there is resistance going from ignition on to starting which moves the 'plate' back off from starting when you release the pressure to it, sorry that will not be a very good or technical description but I think it is what you where thinking of(?).

 

I am pretty sure others will be along who do know what they are talking about to help you now the thread has some momentum, you can wait for those or check your work and take photo as generally photos help with variations on different models and to see that things are as expected, 25 year old cars can have lots of variations to them from when they left the factory.

   

Edited 14 June, 2023 by nta16
ETA:

[J.R.]

You should release the key as soon as the engine fires, you should never engage the starter motor when the engine is running, both of these should be obvious to most people.

 

Nonetheless the starter motor has a one way sprag clutch which declutches when the engine fires so that the starter motor is not destroyed by being turned at 20 times the engine RPM, the starter will still be turning though until you release the key.

 

2 hours ago, emilwkj said:

In the Felicia isn’t there a mechanism to automatically retract / turn off the starter as soon as the engine is running, and a mechanism for preventing cranking while driving?

 

Or am I just remembering incorrectly.

 

I believe so, I have never been aware of such an interlock but then I have never been aware of someone who would willingly engage their starter motor knowing that the engine is running.

 

You may have broken the one way sprag clutch in the pinion with your antics.

Edited 14 June, 2023 by J.R.

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, emilwkj said:

it is very annoying that every time I start the car it makes a bad noise from the starter because It continues to run until I manually remove my hand from the key and the switch pops back.

 

It's not annoying or a problem for the other 1.2 billion drivers on the planet, they release the key when the engine fires like they were taught or like they very quickly worked out that they should do.

[Papez]

2 hours ago, emilwkj said:

Now my question for you guys. In the Felicia isn’t there a mechanism to automatically retract / turn off the starter as soon as the engine is running, and a mechanism for preventing cranking while driving?

 

Or am I just remembering incorrectly.

 

There's no mechanism to retract the starter pinion. However, iirc, there should be interlock that prevents you from cranking, until the key is reset to 0.

[Warrior193]

Just now, Papez said:

 

There's no mechanism to retract the starter pinion. However, iirc, there should be interlock that prevents you from cranking, until the key is reset to 0.

As above ^^^^. IIRC, that used to be a mechanical interlock in the switch assembly itself - I assume that would have changed to an electrical interlock for keyless start models.

[skomaz]

3 hours ago, emilwkj said:

 

Now the starter doesn’t stop running automatically when the engine is running, but keeps running until I remove my hand from the key so the ignition switch pops back to “on”.

 

And even though the engine is running I can turn the key to crank and the starter runs and makes a very loud noise of course.

 

it is very annoying that every time I start the car it makes a bad noise from the starter because It continues to run until I manually remove my hand from the key and the switch pops back.

 

 

That's exactly as it should be and how it's supposed to work on old cars!!!   As @J.R. suggests - hold the key in the start position until it fires then let go so it can spring back to 'on' and your no longer feeding power to the starter.

[nta16]

4 hours ago, emilwkj said:

the bottom piece of the ignition switch

Below is what I imagine as bottom piece of ignition switch, obviously the Skoda one may vary from this one.

 

 

[emilwkj]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

It's not annoying or a problem for the other 1.2 billion drivers on the planet, they release the key when the engine fires like they were taught or like they very quickly worked out that they should do.

Guys i think you misunderstand me. I always release the key, and it was never a problem before i got the new starter, BUT with the new starter even though i am quick as a fox to release the key as soon as i can hear the engine running, it is not enough. That's why i am asking if there in combination with the spring in the ignition switch maybe also is a sensor to turn off the starter as soon as the engine is running.

 

That might be the one way sprag clutch A.J is talking about that is defect.

The starter i bought was used too.

 

So just to clarify guys. This is not stupid me just holding on to my key and hearing my starter engine being crushed all the way to hell. 

This is me starting as normal but even though i am quick to remove my hand from the key, for half a second the starter is cranking even though the engine is running.

 

A. J could you please explain a little more about this sprag clutch in the starter?

[emilwkj]

9 minutes ago, emilwkj said:

Guys i think you misunderstand me. I always release the key, and it was never a problem before i got the new starter, BUT with the new starter even though i am quick as a fox to release the key as soon as i can hear the engine running, it is not enough. That's why i am asking if there in combination with the spring in the ignition switch maybe also is a sensor to turn off the starter as soon as the engine is running.

 

That might be the one way sprag clutch A.J is talking about that is defect.

The starter i bought was used too.

 

So just to clarify guys. This is not stupid me just holding on to my key and hearing my starter engine being crushed all the way to hell. 

This is me starting as normal but even though i am quick to remove my hand from the key, for half a second the starter is cranking even though the engine is running.

 

A. J could you please explain a little more about this sprag clutch in the starter?

Here is a video of the problem guys. Please have sound on, then you can hear it 🙂

 

[J.R.]

I am assuming that your Felicia has a pre-engaged starter, I would expect it for a 1997 vehicle, if it is it will have the solenoid assembly on the side of the starter body and a pinion with a shroud around it, the one way clutch is inside the pinion, its a needle roller bearing which can only turn in one direction, otherwise known as a roller ramp clutch, it means when the engine fires the starter motor shaft will not be driven by the engine even if you dont release the key quick enough, it will freewheel, you wont hear any gnashing just the whirr of the starter which you may not even hear behind the engine noise.

 

The older type of starter has a bendix pinion with a big spring on the end of it and usually a seperate solenoid, that has a reverse internal helix which is thrown out of mesh when the engine fires, its known as an inertia starter because the inertia of the starter spinning from rest engages the pinion.

 

You either have a sticky contact in the new ignition/starter switch which should only cause a whirring noise when the engine fires, if not then its a faulty sprag clutch if you have a pre-engaged starter or a sticking bendix on an inertia starter.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding but they were your words!

 

I just did a test with my 2015 vehicle and it does indeed remove the power from the starter motor after the engine has fired even if I dont release the key and it also inhibits me from using the starter while the engine is running. I dont believe my 1998 VAG vehicle did that, the functionality has probably been brought in for stop-start systems.

[J.R.]

I have listened to the video, it sounds exactly like the screech of a failed sprag clutch, I have only encountered it once and mine would fail to engage on start up, it would make that screeching noise but not turn the engine unless I tried repeatedly.

 

Its going back over 25 years so maybe it started with the squalking when the key was released.

[J.R.]

Do you have your old starter to compare it to?

 

With the starter off of the car the pinion should move freely in one direction without any resistance or jerkiness, in the other direction it should lock to the shaft and turn the armature without any slippage.

You have nothing to lose by trying some WD40 if you can get to the end of the pinion, it should go between the pinion and the shaft.

[Thefeliciahacker]

4 hours ago, Papez said:

iirc, there should be interlock that prevents you from cranking, until the key is reset to 0

there indeed is

[Thefeliciahacker]

6 hours ago, emilwkj said:

And even though the engine is running I can turn the key to crank and the starter runs and makes a very loud noise of course.

simply the new ignition barrel lacks the appropriate interlock to avoid this kind of situation, since its not original