Rear Toe Adjustment Shims

[dan4280]

My mk1 vrs has been lowered which seems to have thrown rear toe out of alignment. I have been experiencing a twitchy rear end 🙃 and just eaten through a pair of rear tyres in record time.

 

I know the rear toe is not adjustable without the use of aftermarket shims between axle and hub. I just can't find any for the mk1 octavia. Any help appreciated.

 

 

[Paws4Thot]

1 hour ago, dan4280 said:

I know the rear toe is not adjustable without the use of aftermarket shims between axle and hub.

Correct, which is why lowering the rear suspension can't change the toe angle.

[andy68]

try looking for MK4 Golf ones, ECS and Eibach used to do them

[petrolbloke]

Lowering shouldn't affect the rear toe as the rear suspension is a torsion beam.

 

How do you know the rear toe is out of alignment? Have you had it 4 wheel aligned? If so, can you share the printout?

 

What suspension and what tyres & pressures are you running?

 

Have you got a RARB fitted?

 

What condition are the bushes for the rear beam?

[dan4280]

9 hours ago, petrolbloke said:

Lowering shouldn't affect the rear toe as the rear suspension is a torsion beam.

 

How do you know the rear toe is out of alignment? Have you had it 4 wheel aligned? If so, can you share the printout?

 

What suspension and what tyres & pressures are you running?

 

Have you got a RARB fitted?

 

What condition are the bushes for the rear beam?

 

It has Vmaxx suspension and at the time of fitting a new rear axle was fitted (I don't think it was a vrs specific axle but was told they are all the same......?!). Tyres are a firestone model all round and generally around 30 psi.

 

The thing that is confusing me - if you can never put the rear toe out of alignment (other than bending the axle), why do companies make shims to correct alignment? I have found a company that specifically says lowering the car can affect toe!

 

https://air-lift.co.uk/accessories/cambertoe-shims/volkswagen-golf-mk4-rear-alignment-shim-kit

 

Edited 9 July, 2023 by dan4280

[petrolbloke]

The rear camber is fine. The right rear has more toe than the left but they are both toeing in which is normal (and gives a more stable / less twitchy rear end).

 

You say it's eaten through rear tyres quickly - I wouldn't expect that at all from the print out you shared.

 

I suspect it's the rear shocks/springs that are the problem. Could also be sticking rear brakes, worth checking that too.

[J.R.]

20 hours ago, dan4280 said:

I have found a company that specifically says lowering the car can affect toe!

 

With independant rear suspension yes, you have a beam axle and a shonky one at that given the excessive amount of toe in.

 

It is also not centralised so the vehicle is crabbing, OK its within the specified limits but for a modified car you want it central especially before you start adding toe out shims.

[J.R.]

20 minutes ago, petrolbloke said:

You say it's eaten through rear tyres quickly - I wouldn't expect that at all from the print out you shared.

 

I would unless it was a driven axle.

Edited 10 July, 2023 by J.R.

[dan4280]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

With independant rear suspension yes, you have a beam axle and a shonky one at that given the excessive amount of toe in.

 

It is also not centralised so the vehicle is crabbing, OK its within the specified limits but for a modified car you want it central especially before you start adding toe out shims.

 

With some differing opinions here I am not much further forward! Are you suggesting the axle itself is to blame, i.e. it is not straight?

 

2 hours ago, petrolbloke said:

The rear camber is fine. The right rear has more toe than the left but they are both toeing in which is normal (and gives a more stable / less twitchy rear end).

 

You say it's eaten through rear tyres quickly - I wouldn't expect that at all from the print out you shared.

 

I suspect it's the rear shocks/springs that are the problem. Could also be sticking rear brakes, worth checking that too.

 

I think I have been loathed to blame the suspension as the issues were from the off with the brand new suspension installed. Checking the brakes isn't a bad idea - but part of the issue is twitchiness on uneven road surfaces which I guess is not likely brake related.

[J.R.]

The toe in is fixed by the manufacture of the axle unless someone has already been playing around with shims, I called it shonky because one degree fifty minutes of toe in on a non driven rear axle is shonky!

 

The axle is also misaligned, correcting that will not reduce the toe in but should make each side equal.

[dan4280]

39 minutes ago, J.R. said:

The toe in is fixed by the manufacture of the axle unless someone has already been playing around with shims, I called it shonky because one degree fifty minutes of toe in on a non driven rear axle is shonky!

 

The axle is also misaligned, correcting that will not reduce the toe in but should make each side equal.

 

To be clear - you are suggesting a replacement axle as a remedy? There are no shims currently installed.

 

It's been to a couple of mechanics/alignment garages, none of whom have offered a solution.

[petrolbloke]

22 hours ago, dan4280 said:

I think I have been loathed to blame the suspension as the issues were from the off with the brand new suspension installed. Checking the brakes isn't a bad idea - but part of the issue is twitchiness on uneven road surfaces which I guess is not likely brake related.

 

I wonder if the suspension is too low and it's bottoming out (hitting the bump stops). Or just that the spring rate/damping is poorly matched for the road conditions.

 

Regarding the tyre wear - how many miles did the last pair of rear tyres do and was there any uneven wear across them? If the excessive wear was caused by too much toe in then I'd expect the outer edges to be more worn. Most cars will have a bit of toe-in on the rear wheels from the factory (for handling stability) but it's normally so little that the outside edges wouldn't wear noticeably more.

[J.R.]

23 hours ago, dan4280 said:

To be clear - you are suggesting a replacement axle as a remedy?

 

I replied earlier but for whatever reason it has not posted.

 

I dont know where you get the idea that I was advocating a replacement axle, I was suggesting that it be realigned to the thrust axis of the vehicle if that can be done with a live axle like it can with the IRS version to get equal toe on each side before shimming to reduce the excessive toe angle.

[ColinD]

I had a bent rear beam on my mkI. 
 

I’d clipped a rock in the road from a dry wall. Didn’t notice, improved right hand corners though   Till I saw the tyre eating itself.

 

I’d suspect that; a bent beam, would have been identified by now.

Some tyres, did wear far faster than others. It might be a combination of things vs one.

[dan4280]

On 11/07/2023 at 20:39, petrolbloke said:

 

I wonder if the suspension is too low and it's bottoming out (hitting the bump stops). Or just that the spring rate/damping is poorly matched for the road conditions.

 

Regarding the tyre wear - how many miles did the last pair of rear tyres do and was there any uneven wear across them? If the excessive wear was caused by too much toe in then I'd expect the outer edges to be more worn. Most cars will have a bit of toe-in on the rear wheels from the factory (for handling stability) but it's normally so little that the outside edges wouldn't wear noticeably more.

I kicked this in the weeds but bit the bullet this weekend and replaced the rear shocks with the often recommended Konis. They have only been on a day or so but from initial test drive it seems a lot of my issues were rear shock related.

 

Perhaps avoid vmaxx suspension....