Timing Chain worry

[mrted83]

Hi and a big hello to the group.

 

I am hoping some members can clarify some worries i have regards the 2nd hand car i have recently purchased 

 

It is a 63 plate 1.2 Tsi Skoda Fabia Scout Estate registered Jan 2014 with approx 83k miles.

It has been regularly serviced at a Skoda Garage by the previous owner from new.

In the service paperwork i have which is not Full History by looks of it there is no evidence of the Chain being changed.

 

I had contacted the Skoda garage for some history re any belt change prior to finding out about this issue.

They confirmed car was chain driven so i asked if that needed changed?

Their answer was it was not a serviceable part and lasts the lifetime of the car.

 

My obvious worry now is regards the Timing Chain as looking online it has been highlighted as a major problem with the TSI engine prior to 2014.

 

As it stands i dont think there is any rattle upon start up but as i have read not easy to know what the TSI engine SHOULD sound like and there is a ticking/clicking noise when listening from engine end rather than sat inside.

 

Any info regards this issue such as which engines were highlighted as needing the chain replaced and if my car falls into this category my next step.

 

Many Thanks

[Dorf Depp]

Hello mrted83,

 

It seems that you're new to this forum (welcome!), and - for me at least - I'm surprised that your post didn't get the slightest response. 

 

I'm not sure if I'm able to help directly, but possibly point you at least in the right direction. I posted a related topic around early December, but did not get a definitive answer - at least not directly. As you'll see below, I have a different Fabia model to you, but it appears that mine also has a timing chain, rather than a belt. One responder gave me url links to the Skoda workshop manuals. What with work/Christmas/New Year and being unwell, I haven't got around to investigating the workshop manual links.

It seems that you've done exactly what I was tempted to do, ie ask my main official Skoda dealer. 

 

Here's the link to my post and the related thread:- 

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/519502-camtiming-belt-when-to-change/

 

I've owned quite a number of motorbikes, all of which had timing chains (as is quite typical on motorcycles), and have never had one changed. Mind you, I've never done 143k miles on a vehicle before! Perhaps your Skoda dealer is correct. 

 

Good luck - and hopefully this is a bit of a help!

[mrted83]

Thanks for the reply Dorf Depp

 

Will give a quick update to see if anyone has advise.

 

Contacted Skoda Uk Customer Service regards the issue i have with the Timing Chain.

Reason being i was told by the Skoda Garage there was a mention on the previous owners Service History about the Timing Chain and a rattle.

The previous owner must have decided to get rid so traded car in with them as far as i know.

 

I thought well surely at that moment the Skoda garage should have offered to replace the timing chain free of charge/or part paid as per Skoda Uk TPI's as mentioned on other posts.The garage would not pass on any other info to me re the Chain.

 

I emailed Skoda Group with this info as i had been given a different message regards the belt from the Skoda Garage..."the chain belt is not a serviceable part,its good for lifetime of the car".I went with that but luckily i googled the Chain and found its a common well known issue with the TSI engine and includes my car.

 

Skoda Customer Service and myself have been emailing back and forth up until Friday past where Customer Service basically said they cant do any more as they do not understand the "neccessity of the part."However they went on to advise i sort out a report from a qualified service advisor to determine if the chain does indeed need replaced.

They finished by adding it would be premature to comment any further on this matter.

They also said it would be beneficial to obtain in writing or via email any documentation that highlights the Chain Issue found by the Skoda garage last year.

 

Does anyone think that the garage would be ok sending me the vehicle service history,unsure due to data protection?

I have booked my car in to a local Independent Skoda garage as the service light came on last week re an oil change.

I am also now getting a Major service done as according to the details i  obtained over the phone from the Skoda garage last Major one was in late 2019.(had an Interim just over a year ago Dec past)

 

I am now thinking my next move is to ask the Independant Garage mechanic to specifically look at the Chain and report their findings whilst carrying out the service.(may actually be part of it?)

if that does indeed highlight an issue similar to the previous owners garage then surely i have some sort of ammunition to ask Skoda Group UK to replace free of charge as this Chain was not fit for purpose and is a known fault?

 

Hope this all makes sense as i am getting a bit tired and fed up with Skoda and their deflection tactics.

If anyone else has some useful advice with regards my next move etc it would very much be appreciated.👍

I will just have to keep worrying everytime i turn the engine key disaster may await🥺

 

Thanks

[Ootohere]

@mrted83 Welcome to the forum.

Where are you in Scotland and who was the Skoda Dealership?

 

As in the OP,  63 plate registered in 2014 is not one of the 1.2 TSI,s that are covered by the TPI is it.  Those were pre 2012.

 

What kind of Major Service is being done, Oil & Inspection, and are you having the spark plugs changed, the pollen and air filter, the brake fluid & anything else?

 

DATA Protection means they need to not show the previous owner but as for the Service History of the car.

Skoda/ VW put that online, and it is for Cars Owners / Keepers to know what was done to the car.

Just because a new owner thinks a timing chain is noisy does not mean the Chain & Tensioner needs replaced. 

 

If you want it replaced then maybe pay someone to do it.  It is a 10 year old car /engine. 

 

These are who you are talking to on a phone, e-mail or Chat , or even a Bot.

Edited 21 January by Rooted

[mrted83]

Rooted from what i have read on this site it is but i am happy to be proved wrong.I may have misread somewhere as there was alot of info to take in.

 

Below is the engine info regards my vehicle, if anyone can confirm this  indeed shows my car is one that falls within the Chain failure issues bulletins?

 

Thanks👍

 

[Ootohere]

If it fails it has had 10 years of not failing,

or maybe already replaced.

 

Your car is outwith the build period of the ones that required the first upgrade,

Maybe since 2012 there is a further upgrade i have never heard or seen mentioned.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/344005-cam-chain-problems

 

 

 

Edited 21 January by Rooted

[mrted83]

Rooted

 

As far as i am aware it has not been replaced.

If it is not a serviceable part and is fitted for lifetime of the car(stated by them) then why have so many failed?That and them not taking responsability re a not fit for purpose part is my issue with Skoda.

So im driving about with a Chain that i have no confidence in and can go at anytime.In order to have peace of mind i feel that Skoda should pay for the faulty part to be replaced or at worst pay for part of the cost.

They are well aware of these TSI engine probs so why no recalls?

[Ootohere]

@mrted83You never bought the 10 year old car from SKODA, you bought it from a Dealership. 

 

 

 If your car /engine is faulty then you have a warranty do you not.  But it has not failed has it and you test drove the car and bought it just as the Dealership employee should have and they bought it. 

 

 

How many 1.2 TSI engines built since 2012 have had timing chains fail. and where did you get the figure from? 

 

There was a TPI for the early engines for when people reported issues. 

 

?

Which Motor Group is the Dealership you bought the car part of?     

 

   Dealerships do not just replace the Time Chain on a car because there is a noise noticed by the new owner.  

Edited 21 January by Rooted

[mrted83]

The Timing Chain noise/issue was highlighted by the Skoda dealership mechanics not by me.

My thinking is why did they not replace it then as previous owner was a valued customer?The car had been regularly serviced from new and i will alsi continue with this.Hence why i need clarification from Skoda Uk re the chain issue, why it was not replaced and where do i stand if:

 

1. It fails when it is supposedly fitted to last the lifetime of the car

 

2.If i replace it for peace of mind will Skoda Group UK contribute to the cost which is far less than a new engine.And remember this is a well known fault which means for me the Chain was not fit for purpose re the Lifetime Statement 

 

All i am looking for is some fairness and understanding by Skoda Group UK regards my situation.

 

 

[Ootohere]

I can not understand your situation other than you bought a used car and it has a part service history, is at 83,000 miles and a Tech or Fitter said it was noisy. 

 

The valued customer that was getting the car regularly serviced would have had to pay to have it replaced.

 

If there was a Major service in 2019 and a service a year ago then what about 2020, no interim / minor, 2021 no Major, 2022 no Minor / interim or Major.

Or no record of them..

?

When were the spark plugs changed, 40,000 miles & 80,000? 

 

It will last the lifetime of the chain. 

 

It is 10 years so far and anyone's guess how much longer.    The Mk2 Fabias Build life was 2007 to 2014. 

[mrted83]

Dont worry if you dont understand my situation,maybe someone else can explain it to you☝

 

Thanks for your helpful contribution👍

[Ootohere]

@mrted83  Actually i understand everything you have posted,  but just not why you think Skoda UK / VW UK should be interested.

 

If you gave a clue as to where you are in Scotland or who you bought the car from i could maybe suggest a good place to go so tat you are not tipped off.

Maybe the Skoda Independent is a good one though.   There are some about. 

[sepulchrave]

There is absolutely no chance that VAG will ever admit there's any issue with the chain drive on that engine, it would open them up to a recall and another class action lawsuit.

 

You say the chain isn't noisy yet you think it should be replaced?

 

Since there's no recall and the chain isn't noisy then if you want it replaced you'll have to pay a garage full price to do the work.

 

Lifetime means 10 years or 100k miles so I would change the chain and tensioners on that basis, most chain driven engines from most manufacturers are like this, my brother has just had the whole lot changed on his Citroen DS3 which is fitted with the ghastly Prince engine, that sounded like a bucketful of steel washers in a tumble dryer on startup!

 

If you want peace of mind it's probably best to stop reading anecdotal rubbish on the internet.

[mrted83]

Thanks Sepulchrave for your view.

 

Yeh im thinking i will probably have to bite the bullet but still feel it is unfair.

Will see how things pan out i imagine in the next few weeks.

[mrted83]

Just to add the rattle noise was first flagged up by previous owner and confirmed by Skoda Mechanic hence why its mentioned in their service history.

I am unsure what they mean by "rattle" and difficult for me to define if its the norm?It does however sound louder like a diesel car for approx 1-2 secs max on start up then quietens down .

 

So just not sure where i am with the car.

[Ootohere]

@mrted83  You are in the same place as when you bought the car,

There is nothing actually wrong with it is there.  Just a 10 year old car since first registered and with 83,000 miles and a partial service history, or an incomplete history of servicing.

What has it come with just the 3 month or 6 month warranty or longer or did you pay extra for a longer warranty? 

 

Maybe it was decided to use VW502 , 5w 40 FS oil instead of the VW504 00 / 507 00, 5w 30 FS III long life oil and there is not the same rattle on start up or when running or just the Technician / Fitter had good hearing and also was trying for the job of getting to replace the timing chain.

 

See what the Independent you go to for the service has to say. 

 

At Main Dealers the extras need paying some jobs / parts, as the Oil & Inspection services & the Extended scope does not include Spark Plugs, Brake Fluid Change or Air or Pollen filters

 

Edited 22 January by Rooted

[xman]

63 plate car will have the revised engine with improved chain drive so in my experience chain life is considerably longer (120,000+ miles v 60,000 miles in the examples we owned)

 

A slight rattle on cold start ups for a couple of seconds (until oil pressure is established) is quite common and probably nothing to worry about.

 

But if the rattle gets loud ( heard inside the car) on start up (usually happens after being stood a long time) and sounds painful, like a machine gun , this is the chain so slack it's riding up on the sprocket(s), IMMEDIATELY turn off the engine to prevent disaster. Wait 4 or 5 seconds, then restart the engine and hopefully the loud rattle is no longer there as the oil pressure on the initial start allows the tensioner to take up the slack and force the chain to engage the sprockets correctly.

 

In this case its time to replace the chain kit (entire kit contains chain, 2 sprockets, tensioner and 2 guides).

 

I had replacements done at around £400 each time at my Skoda dealer but the last was around 3 years ago.

 

Tip: Don't leave the car parked in gear. In this design if the crankshaft rotates reverse to its normal direction then the chain tensioner can be forced back and the chain goes slack on the non tensioner side.  It will then hang down off the bottom sprocket. If you must park in gear, use reverse gear if the car is pointing uphill and 1st if pointing downhill.

 

Btw the ticking/clicking noise you mentioned in your 1st post is probably from the mechanical high pressure fuel pump located on the cam cover - big shiny hex head on top and 2 stainless steel fuel pipes. Can be quite loud at idle stood outside but inaudible in the cabin. Normal and nothing to worry about.

Edited 28 January by xman

[mrted83]

Thanks for the info xman

[mrted83]

Hi folks

 

I have decided to have my Timing Belt checked by a Skoda Garage for any faults . I am therefore wondering  what exactly would they need to do to diagnose and how much time to do it?

Only been given their hourly fee which isnt cheap,plus said they cant give an approx time regards how long to do the actual diagnosis ??

Any info or help would be much appreciated👍

 

[sepulchrave]

23 minutes ago, mrted83 said:

Hi folks

 

I have decided to have my Timing Belt checked by a Skoda Garage for any faults . I am therefore wondering  what exactly would they need to do to diagnose and how much time to do it?

Only been given their hourly fee which isnt cheap,plus said they cant give an approx time regards how long to do the actual diagnosis ??

Any info or help would be much appreciated👍

 

They can't give you a time because it isn't a recognised service task and it will not therefore appear in their labour database.

 

Don't be surprised if they recommend replacement before putting it all back together!

[mrted83]

Thanks Sepulchrave

 

Thats what i am worried about☝

 

I have no idea but say it takes a couple of hours to do the diagnosis,cost is somewhere between £200-£300 already.

Then worst case scenario they say needs changing possibly 3 hrs labour plus parts on top.

Dont know how much to change the chain but belts approx £600-£700 i think??

Best case scenario maybe 3 to 4 hrs labour??

Anybody with a better knowledge re labour time and how they will properly diagnose any chsin issye etc help would be appreciated👍

[sepulchrave]

Chains are more labour intensive than belts, they usually need the sump dropped which means oil and filter as well, the parts are also more expensive because the sprockets have to be replaced along with all the tensioner components.

 

It could easily run to a grand at main dealer prices with the vodka and tonic.

[mrted83]

Was my thinking🙄

 

Thanks anyway

[sepulchrave]

1 hour ago, mrted83 said:

Was my thinking🙄

 

Thanks anyway

 

You're like a terrier with a bone dude, sometimes you just have to let go.

 

There is no car I know of that's completely reliable at ten years old. It's why they depreciate!

[mrted83]

😏🐕👍