Although this relates to my Skoda Superb, I've put this here as lots of Skodas will have the same drive train. My previous Skoda, an Octavia Scout, had the same Haldex set-up.

I've had my Superb Mk2 4x4 3.6 DSG, for a couple of months. I took it to a Skoda/VW/Seat specialist locally for a good checkover. They found corroded rear lower control arms, broken rear spring, split boot on a front drop-link, and a couple of knackered bushes on front lower control arms.  They also found that the Haldex wasn't working.

At that point, the car actually felt fine, drove well and felt nicely planted. It had a new MOT in September with no advisories (Hmmm). I had a good test run in it before I bought it, so was happy that all was good in respect of handling (bearing in mind I'd never driven one before and the roads were bone dry at the time) (Private sale).

Tyres were OK but three different brands and varying levels of wear.

This is what I have done:

I have fitted new lower control arms all round with all-new bolts and nuts, new ball joints front (the front control arms came with the ball joints already fitted).

New rear springs

New front drop-links

(and I fixed the Haldex with a new pump, oil and filter)

New all-season tyres, standard size, wheels balanced and tracking done by very highly regarded local garage.  I have also flat-sanded the wheel and hub faces clean and smooth. Pressures and lug torques are spot on.

 

First run out was last week when there was still some snow and ice about. Haldex defo working nicely.  As I drove up my (never gritted) road, I thought 'Wow! it's still very icy' and drove a few more miles, all below 30mph - 40mph. All good so far, but sliding a little, which I put down to icy roads.

Then, in the warmer spell a few days later, where all the ice and snow was gone, my next journey involved dual carriageway and motorway. I have been driving since 1979 and have had lots of different cars; front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, 4-wheel drive, and all-wheel drive, and only ever one new car. I have never experienced the scary handling I now experienced in the Superb. The back end kept breaking out sideways, just like driving on ice (but only the back, the front seems fine), causing me to constantly steer into it. On a couple of occasions, even the traction control cut in, when changing lanes, to the point where I thought I was going to lose control. It was proper frightening! I abandoned my journey, having never got faster than 50mph, came off at the next junction and drove home via the slow roads.

 

I haven't driven the Skoda since.  I have the luxury of a two-post lift so got it back up and checked everything I'd touched. All the fastenings were tight, no play anywhere, nothing broken that I can see. Definitely road surface/bump etc related. On smooth very flat bits, it doesn't really show up.  Googling about for ideas, my next step is to change the rear shocks. If that doesn't fix it, I'll take it to my highly regarded garage.  The car has done 140,000 miles and I do wonder if the shocks were on their last legs, and possibly having the rear suspension hanging on them for a week and a half over Christmas, while I waited for the new parts to arrive, has done for them.

 

In the meantime, anyone experienced this? Anyone have any ideas what the issue might be?  It was fine until I fixed broken things!   

 

 

Edited 18 January, 20251 yr by Fourpot

Does it drift in both directions or just one?

 

Does it do it when you apply power?

 

Did you drop the rear subframe or loosen the securing bolts?

 

It sounds like one or both rear wheels are toeing out, you should check the new control arms dimensionally against the old.

24 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Does it drift in both directions or just one?

 

Does it do it when you apply power?

 

Did you drop the rear subframe or loosen the securing bolts?

 

It sounds like one or both rear wheels are toeing out, you should check the new control arms dimensionally against the old.

Thanks for response...

In order:

• Both
• No
• No
• I'll do that, although I bought quality Moog arms from Autodoc, so not cheap Chinese copies from ebay or Amazon, and I think for the arms to create toe-out, the inner and outer bushes would have to be out of parallel which I don't think is the case as they fitted in perfectly. Or do you mean camber, which could happen if they weren't the same length?

I forgot to say that there's no knocking or clunks, but I'll have a good look anyway.

Aha!   Having now consulted the workshop manual after J.R.'s comment (which I didn't do to replace the rear control arms, as it seemed to be a simple two bolts on each side job, and I had no idea the camber could be adjusted at the back), there is a table which says that if the lower controls arms are replaced, then a wheel alignment must be carried out. Luckily none of the other new parts necessitate a wheel alignment.

 

I measured the dimensions of the new v old lower control arms and they are bang on identical.

 

I'll do a very basic measurement with a plumb line and ruler tomorrow and adjust if necessary, (being mindful that I'll need to do the triangle maths and convert decimal degrees into degrees and minutes), if I can just about squeeze under the car to do it. I'll still get it booked into my highly regarded garage for a 4-wheel alignment asap. When the new rear shocks turn up that I'd ordered anyway, I'll put them on regardless.

Edited 18 January, 20251 yr by Fourpot

Dont adjust the front axle toe in if that is what you meant, use your string line to assess whether the rear wheels are toeing out, they should have between zero and a small amount of toe in, definitely not toe out.

 

I don't know what, if or where the rear toe might be adjusted or whether your works have disturbed that, I just know from race car set up and driving experience that what you describe tallys with toe out on rear wheels, camber may have some influence but on maximum breakaway grip not the vehicle wanting to change ends from normal road steering inputs, that is not a lack of grip but too much grip at a different thrust vector to the steering wheels.

The camber angle seems to be about right at 1.5 degrees. Whilst I do know the difference between toe and camber and castor, I was thinking that the eccentric bolt at the inner end of the lower control arm, adjusted camber (as it looks like it moves the arm in or out and thus the bottom of the wheel). That however, is the toe adjustment, so that could well be out.  I'm glad the camber seems OK as the bolt that adjusts that is right up in the sub-frame and will no doubt be a nightmare to do. I didn't know it was there, as it wasn't involved in the replacing of the LCAs and rear springs.

 

So, J.R,  you're suggestion of toe being wrong is very possibly correct, as I did undo that bolt, and now it all makes sense. Me thinking that was the camber adjustment has put me all sideways let alone the car!  

 

I'll go and see now...

Glad to have helped, I cant visualise the rear suspension pick up points and how the lower arm might affect toe and its too cold to go out and look but it makes sense given the work you have done and my brown trouser moments on the track driving vehicles that when I later checked had toe out on the IRS.

 

If you can visualise a birds eye view of the wheels with one rear toeing out and the vehicle crabbing to drive in a straight line, then visualise what would happen with a slight steering input in the other direction it will get your bum clenching again!!!!!

Edited 19 January, 20251 yr by J.R.

29 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Glad to have helped, I cant visualise the rear suspension pick up points and how the lower arm might affect toe and its too cold to go out and look but it makes sense given the work you have done and my brown trouser moments on the track driving vehicles that when I later checked had toe out on the IRS.

 

If you can visualise a birds eye view of the wheels with one rear toeing out and the vehicle crabbing to drive in a straight line, then visualise what would happen with a slight steering input in the other direction it will get your bum clenching again!!!!!

Well I guess this a bit outside what the rear toe should be!!  J.R. you're a star!   No more pelvic floor exercises for me!

I worked out the above toe angle to be 4.5 degrees each side, toe out. Blimey! 😳

 

I put the car on some slidy cardboard so the tyres didn't grip the floor too much and got back underneath (it's a tight fit for sure!). Turned those eccentric bolts until the two dimensions above were the same and not 16cm apart, therefore the toe angle is now zero. There could be some 'thrust' i.e. both wheels pointing either left or right together (I'm on a steep leaning curve here - everyday is a school day), but I was careful that the bolts were, to the eye, rotated the same on each side. 

 

Out for a test drive: My road (30mph) - all good, next couple of roads (up to 50mph) - all good, dual carriageway (up to around 70mph) all good. Handles great, no sideways, steering central and arrow straight.  I'll be booking it in for a proper laser-beam alignment tomorrow.

 

Massive thanks to J.R. for steering me in the right direction (pun totally intended!) 🥰

Be carefull, on lots of our vehicles the front track is not the same as the rear track but looking at your sketch the measurements are in front of and behind the rear wheels so all good

2 hours ago, Fourpot said:

Massive thanks to J.R. for steering me in the right direction (pun totally intended!) 🥰

 

It's a pleasure, it's the raison d'être of this forum.

Update....

 

Today I went to a local highly regarded motorsport garage and had a full 4-wheel alignment done. 

 

The replacement lower control arms that I fitted were Moog items, a brand I always held to be pretty good. Anyway, not so it would appear.  The garage ran out of adjustment on one side, at -0:03' (minus 3 minutes) which is toe out, which is not good. The other side could be adjusted to zero, but they had to have that at -0:03' too, otherwise the back would want to go sideways.  I may well get tyre wear on the inside edges.

 

The nice chap recommended to always use genuine manufacturer parts for these sort of parts, as the tolerances are usually tighter than most aftermarket.

 

I believe that Lemforder are the people that make the original VAG parts anyway, so I guess getting a pair of them would be good (at half the cost of some VAG/Skoda-stickered ones from a dealer, and a lot cheaper than a pair of tyres every few months!!)?)

 

 

Isn't a minus reading toe in?

 

I dont know the specified reading for your vehicle but it is usually parallel to a slight amount of toe in, your is either in the range (if negative is toe in) or only slightly outside, I would live with it, see if you like the handling and response and monitor the tyre wear before considering a change.

Every where I look,  negative toe is toe out.  The rear is only toe-out by as much as the front is toe-in, with the front being within acceptable.  The printout shows where it's up to. Looking closely at where the arrow is above the the red block thing, it looks like it's possibly only 1 minute outside acceptable (and roughly equates to being 1 metre off course (to the side of straight ahead) after 3.4km. I'll take that.

I have a spare set of wheels with some old, but still OK, tyres on, albeit summer ones. I may swap them over soon and sacrifice them as a tyre wear experiment.  Handles and responds fine. I think tyre wear will be the only issue.

 

 

 

Edited 27 January, 20251 yr by Fourpot

Quite a lot of Lemforder stuff is made in China nowadays, as well as Malaysia and of course Germany - all with the, in my case, Audi roundels ground off, a bit of a surprise but I'm hoping that quality standards are being maintained!

 

I'm just mentioning that as you mentioned Lemforder.

31 minutes ago, rum4mo said:

Quite a lot of Lemforder stuff is made in China nowadays, as well as Malaysia and of course Germany - all with the, in my case, Audi roundels ground off, a bit of a surprise but I'm hoping that quality standards are being maintained!

 

I'm just mentioning that as you mentioned Lemforder.

Yes, thank you! I've also been reading that there's a lot of off-shoring, near-shoring, friend-shoring going on even with the best brands. As you say, as long as they are to the proper standard they should be good, rather than a cheap Chinese copy. Lemforder seem to be made in a number of far-east countries and Turkiye, as well as Germany.