Guys, Just been reading the thread about about the Q7. I agree with most of what's said but will people please stop using environmental damage as a reason for hating them. As a percentage of cars on our roads they are tiny, and most luxury cars (as well as all the old crappy cars on the road) chuck out far more gunk. An M5 does 8mpg around town!!! What do we do? Ban them? What about buses and Lorries? Ban them too?

What I don't like about 4x4s are their unsuitability for their predominately urban surroundings. Too big for the roads and car parks, and I fear for my safety being hit by a 3 tonne Disco whos bonnet is nigh on as high as my roof. I also fear for the safety of the people inside said Disco when it rolls and the roof has to support 3 tonnes instead of the wheels.

I'm all for an argument, but please let us keep it balanced and leave the soundbites to those pr1cks in government.

Rant over

:thumbup: Well said that man!

At the risk of sounding like a certain Mr Clarkson, using a big 4x4 for the school run is bloody stupid, but we should not be banned from doing it, and certainly not for such a dubious reason.

4x4s are easily recognisable, already disliked by a number of people for whatever reason, and therefore an easy target (vote winner?).

Over here we get Dodge RAM trucks and Ford F150 and F250s. I'd hate to have one of those things hit my car - imagine that 8 litre V10 engine block at about the same height as your head :eek:

Just remember, Big car equates to small ****

Just remember, Big car equates to small ****

Aren't most drivers of these cars women? :confused: :eek:

Just remember, Big car equates to small ****

That's a dangerous statement to make on a site where a large number of members feel the need to increase the size of there engine

There are reasons to have 4x4s, and reasons not to.

7 seats could be a plus point for some. The fact that if you're towing a horsebox, large trailer or caravan, almost all car's would not legally be able cope with the weight could be another. Then, you may actually be going "off road".

However, are 4x4's larger than the average car? I think our Grand Cherokee is about 4 inchs wider and no longer than our Octavia. However, I see far more Transit/Sprinter vans on the road than 4x4s and have seen alot of early morning deliveries, they're not always full!!

Are they fuel in-efficient? Perhaps. The Jeep does about 19 mpg on a good day. I can get double that, but I know some of the guys on here will get less than that when flogging it round a track. Ban trackday's anyone?

Do more damage in a crash? Yes almost certainly. HGV in the side of your car anyone? Any big vehicle will likely do more damage in a crash. Perhaps we should start banning the really big things and work down untill we all drive smart cars.

I could go on for ages....

To me this is a jealousy/class thing. And before somebody says "but I don't want a bloody 4x4", thats not what I mean.

4x4s are expensive, therefore typically only a certain type of person has one. To me it's the fact that people have the choice to drive what they want that people are jealous off.

I could tie this in to the Hunting debate. People turn up in posh clothes, on horses and this is a cruel sport. People turn up in jeans etc and sit on a riverbank and pull fish out with a hook and this is not. At least the Hunt used to kill some foxes which spread disease and kill other animals. Alot of anglers just throw the fix back so it can go through the same stress next week.

People spend large ammounts on money buying a fuel inefficient car and this is bad. People spend a small amount of money on a reasonable efficent car and then a large ammount of money trying to make it inefficient, but this is ok.

If the motoring public allow 4x4's to be forced out then the next target is likely to be sports/super cars, that's not something I want to see happen. Consumers should be able to make their own choice and not be forced down a particular route.

It'd be nice if the 4x4s i met on the country lanes on my way to work didn't think they owned the lanes...i've lost track at the number of times i've had one come hurtling towards me forcing me to eat hedge...

...the vehicle isn't the problem it's the drivers most the time unfortunately :thumbdwn:

MPM

That's a dangerous statement to make on a site where a large number of members feel the need to increase the size of there engine

There are reasons to have 4x4s' date=' and reasons not to.

7 seats could be a plus point for some. The fact that if you're towing a horsebox, large trailer or caravan, almost all car's would not legally be able cope with the weight could be another. Then, you may actually be going "off road".

However, are 4x4's larger than the average car? I think our Grand Cherokee is about 4 inchs wider and no longer than our Octavia. However, I see far more Transit/Sprinter vans on the road than 4x4s and have seen alot of early morning deliveries, they're not always full!!

Are they fuel in-efficient? Perhaps. The Jeep does about 19 mpg on a good day. I can get double that, but I know some of the guys on here will get less than that when flogging it round a track. Ban trackday's anyone?

Do more damage in a crash? Yes almost certainly. HGV in the side of your car anyone? Any big vehicle will likely do more damage in a crash. Perhaps we should start banning the really big things and work down untill we all drive smart cars.

I could go on for ages....

To me this is a jealousy/class thing. And before somebody says "but I don't want a bloody 4x4", thats not what I mean.

4x4s are expensive, therefore typically only a certain type of person has one. To me it's the fact that people have the choice to drive what they want that people are jealous off.

I could tie this in to the Hunting debate. People turn up in posh clothes, on horses and this is a cruel sport. People turn up in jeans etc and sit on a riverbank and pull fish out with a hook and this is not. At least the Hunt used to kill some foxes which spread disease and kill other animals. Alot of anglers just throw the fix back so it can go through the same stress next week.

People spend large ammounts on money buying a fuel inefficient car and this is bad. People spend a small amount of money on a reasonable efficent car and then a large ammount of money trying to make it inefficient, but this is ok.[/quote']

Interesting points well put. I agree its often a jealousy thing, as far as Im concerned it should be freedom of choice. We are becoming a country where we all too often tell people what they can & can not do.

Re my earlier comment it was a tongue in cheek provocative one geared to generate comment, no offence meant to anyone.

It'd be nice if the 4x4s i met on the country lanes on my way to work didn't think they owned the lanes...i've lost track at the number of times i've had one come hurtling towards me forcing me to eat hedge...

...the vehicle isn't the problem it's the drivers most the time unfortunately :thumbdwn:

MPM

I never give way, just stop & wait, If its an iminent collision either you or they are going too fast.

Tip :- When a car approaches you, never pull tight into the hedge until you are very close to the oncoming car, if you pull in early they wont bother & you end up pulling in even further. keep a bit of pressure on them to the last minuite, it encourages them to move over. If its tight make sure you can stop before you meet

I agree its often a jealousy thing, as far as Im concerned it should be freedom of choice. We are becoming a country where we all too often tell people what they can & can not do.

:iagree:

And as a separate point that I forgot to put, if you really want to cut down on environmental damage, stop buying from supermarkets (hereford potates in hereford's sainsbury's are packed in suffolk :confused: ) and stop taking your foreign holidays by plane!!

(Oh, and turn off all you're electrical items - especially the TV and your computer )

I think we need to look at why people buy 4x4's.

1) They are farming folk who need a 4x4

2) They have a hobby that requires them to tow large trailers or get to in-accesable places (hot air baloons, rally cars, climbers etc.)

3) They take the kids out in it an feel its safe

4) They like the look of it

5) Their friends have one so they want one too.

Banning 4x4's will never happen because groups 1 and 2 couldnt manage without. It would also close the Land Rover factory in the Midlands, and have a dramatic effect on their suppliers (not biased here, honest).

In addition, it will never become socially unacceptable to drive a 4x4 in towns.

1) They are farming folk who need a 4x4

2) They have a hobby that requires them to tow large trailers or get to in-accesable places (hot air baloons' date=' rally cars, climbers etc.)

3) They take the kids out in it an feel its safe

4) They like the look of it

5) Their friends have one so they want one too.[/quote']

6) For certain sizes and styles of vehicle, manufacturers seem to insist on offering 4wd. Although if taxation aimed at penalising 4x4 Chelsea tractors is introduced, I can see this changing...

Rob.

I never give way' date=' just stop & wait, If its an iminent collision either you or they are going too fast.

Tip :- When a car approaches you, never pull tight into the hedge until you are very close to the oncoming car, if you pull in early they wont bother & you end up pulling in even further. keep a bit of pressure on them to the last minuite, it encourages them to move over. If its tight make sure you can stop before you meet[/quote']

Two things:

1) A friend of mine used to say that right of way is determined by who's driving the oldest/tattyist car.

2) You must have a different concept of what's a narrow lane. As my dad once wrote in a vistors book "we travelled down lanes where the verges touch the car on both sides to be confronted by a sign that says 'road narrows'!!" Pulling in to the hedge makes no difference!!

7) Offroading is a hobby like track-racing and they can't afford 2 cars

Chris

I think taxation based on a vehicles drivetrain woul dbe impossible to manage. The Octavia 4x4 is really a FWD car most of the time, except when it needs 4x4. Other 4x4s also work in this way.

The easiest way to do it would be to heavily tax the tyres that fit big 4x4's.

Money isn't going to bother people who have 4x4's as their daily drivers!

Chris

I'm glad so many of you are talking sense. I agree that it is a jealousy thing too. We live in a strange country in that respect, where success and symbols of success are often sneered at, by those who would do exactly the same if they could.

Agree about the 4x4 driver's attitude too. Just like it's not guns that kill - it's the person firing the trigger.

I think taxation based on a vehicles drivetrain woul dbe impossible to manage. The Octavia 4x4 is really a FWD car most of the time' date=' except when it needs 4x4. Other 4x4s also work in this way.

The easiest way to do it would be to heavily tax the tyres that fit big 4x4's.[/quote']

Just leave it on fuel, the more you use the more you pay, its a simple & easy system to manage

Just leave it on fuel, the more you use the more you pay, its a simple & easy system to manage

Exactly

Forget the type of vehicle for the moment. Consider the following:

Person A drives a car that does 40mpg and drives 30000 miles in a year.

Person B drives a car that does 15mpg, but only drives 3000 miles.

Who's harming the environment?

This banded road tax is silly.

Buy a new car and you're talking

The old 4x4 haters make me laugh

My boss drives a RRS as his daily driver and for the school runs...... why? Beacuse he likes it.

Trust me, me having to eat hedge isn't cause i'm going to fast, usually, i'm going quite slow (30mph ish) and stop to pass to find 4x4s don't lift off and i have to DRIVE into the verges...quite common to be mums on the school run on the phone hurtling down the middle of the lanes at 60mph....hence why i go 30ish...

...60miles of this a day means i get plenty of practice & it's not worth going fast

One day i'll try the 'chicken' thing and end up in a wooden box as the heavy chunk will have flattened me :(

ah well, at least it's Friday tomorrow

MPM

...quite common to be mums on the school run on the phone hurtling down the middle of the lanes at 60mph....

This is a common problem, you're confusing a 4x4 with a bad driver. True, you may feel less threatened if the idiot doing 60 while on the phone was in a mini, but really your issue is with the driver, and that's not the fault of the car.

ah well, at least it's Friday tomorrow

You should be ok for a while - i think most of the schools are now on holiday

I worked it out this morning - i get 14.5mpg out of my daily driver Explorer (that's £74 per tank and about 240 miles!)

It's great! I have occasionally taken it off roading - not because i have to but because i bought it because i wanted to take it off roading, my choice

I looked into getting an LPG conversion done to be a bit friendlier to the environment (it spits out >350 g/km emissions!) but i accidentally spent the money on a new gearbox for the Octy instead - doh! ...but presumably if all 4x4s came out of the factory with an LPG tank then no-one would be able to complain anymore???

I bet none of you 4x4 bashers would knock one if you got offered one - they may be juicy to run but they are the ultimate in luxobarge technology

Yeah I agree. The modern ones are amazing to drive. Did you see Fifth Gear when they took a Lexus RH400 to a tree huggers convention. The look on their self satisfied faces when they were told that the big gas guzzling devil was in fact electric, was priceless. One of them even said they'd consider one. Tw@ts

I worked it out this morning - i get 14.5mpg out of my daily driver Explorer (that's £74 per tank and about 240 miles!)

It's great! I have occasionally taken it off roading - not because i have to but because i bought it because i wanted to take it off roading' date=' my choice

I looked into getting an LPG conversion done to be a bit friendlier to the environment (it spits out >350 g/km emissions!) but i accidentally spent the money on a new gearbox for the Octy instead - doh! ...but presumably if all 4x4s came out of the factory with an LPG tank then no-one would be able to complain anymore???

I bet none of you 4x4 bashers would knock one if you got offered one - they may be juicy to run but they are the ultimate in luxobarge technology [/quote']

If you go LPG be warned, a friend got an Izuzu trooper with a lpg conversion which he uses for Hot Air Balloning. When he gets into really difficult situations he has to revert to petrol as its just lacking that extra bit of power, by difficult I mean 3 feet of snow on the side of a swiss mountain etc, doubt if you will ever get that far off road Dave so LPG should be OK if you go that way. Its also the same gas as you use for heating & those 105 Lb red tanks they have on building sites, available from any good gas supplier & thats road fuel tax exempt ;)