Help Needed on Life...

[SteVRs]

Do A+ certification - piece of **** and worthwhile

[apd007]

Work experience is very important nowadays. If I were you, I would take the job to gain at least 2 year experience and save money. You can go to Uni later at whatever age, if you think a degree is necessary or study something else!!

Agree entirely. Get a foot in the door and get experience. Where I work (in IT support) there are a number of people with degree's etc. in computing (my degree is in something else, so it doesn't count :( ), doing the same job as me, which is basic helpdesk bod.

I've learnt more about fixing day to day problems with computers in the last year than I have doing my A+ and N+.

I also disagree about the social life etc. Perhaps it depends on the degree but my experiences of uni were you can have a great social life and a carp degree or a carp social life and a decent degree.

[ScoobyChris]

I also disagree about the social life etc. Perhaps it depends on the degree but my experiences of uni were you can have a great social life and a carp degree or a carp social life and a decent degree.

I got my decent degree and had a reasonably good social life (work hard and play hard!), but SWMBO's younger sister is having a really hard time with her degree and seems to be working most hours of every day :(

Chris

[auroan]

The level of degree you do and the uni you go to it almost directly related to how good the social life will be.

[Robshaw]

Thanks all - Went to nationwide today am now doing part time work just evenings. Will probably do two years on IT tech support thanks for your help much better

Rob

[DaveU]

As an employer of IT people I would say that relevant real world experience is the single most valuable asset you can have.

[ncarring]

I too am confused. You seem to have found some kind body to pay you to take all kinds of training by the age of 18, and now you want a highly paid job under your own terms, while still admitting that you have no real world experience, and a propensity to tell porkies. Then someone offers you a highly paid job, and you scoff at it. What would it take to satisfy you? :confused:

[auroan]

I too am confused. You seem to have found some kind body to pay you to take all kinds of training by the age of 18, and now you want a highly paid job under your own terms, while still admitting that you have no real world experience, and a propensity to tell porkies. Then someone offers you a highly paid job, and you scoff at it. What would it take to satisfy you? :confused:

Couldn't have worded it better my self

[~~****~~]

I'm 25 and can tell you IT is a pain to get into. It's a doubled edged sword, you need qualifications and experience.

When I was 19 I dropped out of an IT HND with the idea of studing for Microsoft exams. That never happened but I managed to wangle my way in to IT. I then spent 2 years doing something I disliked because I couldn't get into IT, then came another lucky break. I started in helpdesk/techincal support again, 3 years later & a MCSA in Messaging (ie. Exchange) I'm a Network Engineer.

It doesn't stop there this year I aim to have my MCSE and possibly CCNA or VMWARE qualification.

I have risen through the ranks of helpdesk & technical support engineer. A 24 year old guy I work with ran his own small IT business, yet is on our helpdesk getting what I call 'corporate' IT experience. He's keen & switched on, what he's doing is below him but he knows you have to be a patient and get some experience behind you before you can move on and earn more money. He's also about to embark on studying his first MCP.

A lot of people knock the MS exams, but if you study for them and make sure you understand the subject fully then you'll be fine. Don't do the brain dumps and then end up looking a numpty as you actually know nothing.

If you want to PM I can suggest some good books that it'd be worth your while reading.

Ps. I don't believe a degree will do any techy any good, if you want to be a softy then yes a degree has it merits.

[~~****~~]

Oh and my social life has suffered massively to get where I am (not that I've achieved much in the grand scheme of things). Long work hours and lots of studing.

[auroan]

Ps. I don't believe a degree will do any techy any good, if you want to be a softy then yes a degree has it merits.

Softie ???? Thats ********.... I'm a techy and believe me, all the jobs at my level require a degree before they'll even interview you...... get real.

[ScoobyChris]

Softie ???? Thats ********.... I'm a techy and believe me, all the jobs at my level require a degree before they'll even interview you...... get real.

Yep, while the course content may not be directly relevant to the "real-world", a degree is a key which gets you through the door. A lot of company's graduate schemes are very good and an excellent way to train and gain experience. Have a look in the back of Computer Weekly or Computing at the jobs and see what they are looking for .... it might be a good way of focussing your decision

Chris

[ugluk]

I guess things were a bit different when I were a lad, and computers were still black magic. I got in as a trainee at a medium sized company, moved to another company in a more "in depth" role, then went on to work for some computing magazines as an assistant editor. I moved away from the area to take a break and attend a college and get a NVQ in computing (qualified to switch the things on!) When the course finished I moved home and needed a job quick so I took some factory work, just to get an income. Within a couple of weeks they promoted me to the accounts, and about 2 weeks after that I was asked to setup an IT department, One of my first moves was to introduce them to networking and windows 3.1 . I managed to take the new formed IT department and turn it into the most profitable part of the company, bringing in allsorts of new revenue streams and increasing efficiency in other areas. Its a process that carrys on today.

Perhaps things are different these days with the sheer numbers of IT literate folks out there these days. But for me I made an opportunity where the company had no plans to hire anyone. All it took was a bit of working outside my job description as a factory floor member of staff. I saw how things could be improved through the use of technology I went out of my way to point out what I could do for them and the benefits to them of that technology. It wasnt in my job description I wasnt paid to do so, but its not turned out so bad.

I believe theres still a lot of companies out there who will promote internally if a staff member shows iniative and aptitude. (theres a fine line between helpful and annoying best to stay on the helpful side ) Better the devil you know as they say. If a staff member already knows your company from another angle they will quite possibly work better from the start. Neither of the members of my department came from positions being advertised, I just spot someone with an interest or who shows promise and let them demonstrate their abilities. These days If I need a new member of staff I look through everyone working for the company already before I advertise a job. That comes from bitter experience of hiring university graduates with no iniative and very little ability work unsupervised.

Its far harder to figure out someones exact competencies and attitudes in a interview than from a 6 month track record employeed in another department or on the factory floor.

MY job has changed a lot over the years when the department was first setup I was doing all the production side myself all the printing, all the data management etc etc. These days I doubt I do 8 hours of real work a week, but my jobs all about guideing strategy and procedures. Ive got the computers here running so stable that theres very little "tech support" involved any more. Ive got a guy who manages data, and one who runs the printers, so thats all the production side taken care of.

I find my natural troubleshooting instinct does well for improving efficiency in allsorts of areas. Even in the last month working well outside of my job description as IT Manager I was able to see some potential for improvement in a major job being ran on the factory floor as I walked past, had a chat with the Director responsible for production (the same director who moved me off the factory floor in the first place) and within an hour came up with some modifications for the machine and working practice that cut staff labour time on the job by over 60%.

The job advert I responded to said "packers required must have nimble fingers" not exactly a promising career prospect But within 2 years of working for the company I was told the manageing directors job would be mine in the future if I wanted it. I might not be on london rates of pay, but I dont have congestion to worry about, My schedule is VERY flexible, I can take holiday at a few days notice no questions asked I can take half days as and when I feel like, no tabs are kept of days spent on holiday or time off.

Times might have changed in the industry but Ive still been offered unadvertised jobs in other companies by contacts despite not having a university degree. They see what I do and what Ive done and that is all the qualifications these people feel they need. If I was cold calling or responding to a advert I suspect a university degree would be needed for some companies, but then Ive even known banks, building societies and goverment departments employ and promote people on merit over qualifications.

If I was starting my career over again and I was determined to work in a big city I would looking at the sort of companies I wanted to work for rather than looking for the job I wanted. I would be looking for lower rank (easier to land) jobs within those companies. I would be using the interview time to see how things are done within the company a snapshort of the corporate culture and to present myself and my talents, not just the ones suitable for the role on offer but more in general. I would be asking about progression and prospects. I would be looking for a base level job at a company that rewarded hard work and iniative. I would get my knees under the desk in a position where I could let my talent do the talking to get me where I wanted to go within a company I wanted to work for.

I would tend to think of an interview not just being about a specific job but a contact between yourself and a company. Think of a job not as a destination but a stage in the journey to the destination.

Many a CEO of a large company started off at the bottom, and many companies still look to promote internally. If a company doesnt nurture its untapped talent they probably arent a good company to be working for. Always make it clear you are willing to do the job on offer and do it to the best of your ability but make it clear that you arent looking to stay in the same position for 20 years.

It shouldnt be about landing a job it should be about making sure you and the company are compatible and have compatible goals and visions. DONT go in for a lower rank job swearing its what youve always wanted to do and then hoping to be promoted, make it clear that you have aspirations and you want to know if a company is looking for someone for a dead end job or if they need that job doing for now, but do consider promoting people.

It really isnt that unusual for IT positions to be filled within comanies by people with no IT qualifications but came from elsewhere within the company. Get your feet in the door and prove that you can do the real job not just provide the right bits of papers.

Look at the very top of the corporate ladder, when a ftse 100 company looks for a new chief, do they look for a degree, or do they look to someone internally or externally with a track record?

A degree might help you enter a company a few rungs higher, but wont change your end destination unless you are looking at academic circles. No ones going to let a non degree holder look after nuclear experiments, but in the business world real performance talks more than theory in my experience.

[cheezemonkhai]

Ps. I don't believe a degree will do any techy any good, if you want to be a softy then yes a degree has it merits.

You might be able to get a help desk job, but you wouldn't get an engineering or similar job without a degree.

Places I have worked wouldn't even let you through the door for an interview without a second class honours degree.

[Tom_vRS]

What a brilliant and thought provoking post. Some bloody good points in there.

[Kandy]

That comes from bitter experience of hiring university graduates with no initiative and very little ability work unsupervised.

And who demonstrate similar attributes to the OP (cough cough)!

Unfortunately these days a degree is required to get through the door because they have been so devalued - anybody without one must be truly awful (that's the assumption, obviously not the truth). I've worked with direct entrant graduates for ??? (a big useless US IT co.), I know how poor even the 'cream of the crop' can be.

There was a large element of luck with your situation UGLUK. I started out very similarly, but after similar rapid promotion from the factory floor my company went under. That repeated 3 times within 3 years (it was the late 80s).

These days the job market is much more transient, more about short term exploitation of the employee by faceless corporations. People are unlikely to be with the same employer for a long time and you get hired to do that job - nothing else.

I'd say you stand a better chance of a fulfilling career if you self-start or try to work with smaller businesses where individual talent can be more easily spotted.

[stevenh]

I went to Uni in 1988/89 to do a Civil Engineering degree.

I did not finish it, but thankfully got out when I did as my mates who all qualified...are now all working in I.T. as the construction industry took a nosedive.

Did I get much academically from it - not much (although did pass as a surveyor - where's me theodolite :lol:)

Do I regret going to Uni - no way.

I went there a quiet, shy person after being bullied at shool over 2 separate occasions, came out 2 years later with some fantastic memories, some great friends and a whole heap of self confidence and changed personality.

So glad I went, it is so much more than some letters after your name!

I fell back into the Insurance industry (can't really work in Edinburgh and not work for one of the big Insurance companies :lol:) spent a further 3 years in Group Pensions Admin, then after a drunken bet, sat the aptitiude test for Systems, passed and became a Cobol mainframe programmer!

Did it 4 years, got bored - basically too many ageing dinosaurs in senior positions who had no grasp on current technology, but weren't going anywhere fast so room for promotion was slim.

Took redundancy, ran my own car valeting firm for a year then came back into I.T.

Instant 10K wage rise! Took a small company (well in Scotland anyway - massive in France) over a couple of the big players and have learnt a LOT of different technoliges over the last 9 years.

Have found a special aptitude for testing (read pedantic bugger!) and have gained numerous qualifications and a lot of experience in all aspects of this area.

Big change in the last 16 months as we bought over a large Scottish based I.T. Company so the Scottish branch has gone from circa 20 bods to around 450 so I can now hopefully specialise in the area I want to - performance testing, mostly using Mercury LoadRunner - it is what interests me.

During my time I have worked with various graduates who have ranged from the dedicated, willing to learn to the chip-on-the-shoulder, I do not deserve to do those menial tasks don't you know I have a degree type who are so far up their own backsides they are no use to man or beast.

I think nowadays you do need some kind of qualification to get started on the whole, but some opportunities do present themselves which contradict this.

At the end of the day, it's your life and I certainly would not base my future on what a bunch of faceless people on an internet forum think!