I'm only talking about gentle braking for example when turning off a main road into a side road (30mph limit). By heel and toeing you don't need to separate the braking from the gear change, which is smoother, and more mechanically sympathetic.

Anything more than gentle braking and the ECU says "no".

And of course its quicker than separating the braking and gear change, and you can start the manoevre a little later too.

I have been using heel 'n' toe for many years but I find that in too many modern cars the brake pedal is too 'light' and sensitive to be able to get a firm platform to then blip the throttle.

I used to manage it in my Fabia but only with heavy braking of the sort that you ought not really be doing on the public roads. I've experimented a few times in my Octy vRS TDI but haven't really got to grips with it yet.

The last time I REALLY used heel 'n' toe was on a track day at Rockingham in a Leon Cupra R - the instructor was amazed; as he thought the practice had died out!!

Sounds a bit naff, but I learned to do this using the Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing PC Sims years back. The right hardware helps - H-shift and 3 pedals - and GPL needs patched up I think. The technique tranferred over to "real life" pretty easily, I found.

I thought heel n toe was a dancing thing :confused:

I thought heel n toe was a dancing thing :confused:

It would appear it is :eek:

Chris

It would appear it is :eek:

Chris

:eek:

I heel and toe in a car that suits it (no automatic power cutoff when you brake, pedals close, revvy engine with little flywheel effect) but only when fanging it. I cannot see the point when braking lightly, it's likely to make things less smooth then. On the road it's not strictly neccessary - block changing then letting the clutch out smoothly and quite late in the braking zone is more important.

On track, especially with rWD, it's essential when you reach a certain pace. It's also far easier on track and in a car suited for track work.

No-one has mentioned yet the locking wheel issue.

happens on both front and rwd cars. If you are breaking to the full limit of the tyres traction (read slight squeel from the tyres but not locked) if you shift down and drop the clutch, the extra breaking force from the engine can lock the wheels on you. By heal and toe-ing you ensure that the extra brake force is fed in more gently and as such there will less likelyhood of locking wheels.

Any chance you could expand on that a bit? Having a bit of trouble getting my head round it

Thanks, Chris

I understand the theory and have heard about this being a "problem" with down changes in a Cerbera. Some people have spun them in a straight line by braking and down changing to hard.

well....

If you are breaking at the absolute limit of the traction of the tyres.... i.e. they are squeeling, but not locked... for instance if the car has abs (i am sure all of us probably drive cars with ABS) the tyres would be squeeling but the abs no kicked in yet, if you were to down shift and release the clutch too hard, the extra force of engine breaking can just push you over the limit and cause wheels to lock, abs to kick in, or locking of rear tyres on a rwd car!

by heal and toeing... as well as all the other benefits previously mentioned it means that the engine gradually feeds in the extra breaking force and is lees likely to cause a lockup.

I am talking about when on the absolute limit of braking here.

But heel 'n' toe has nothing to do with when you change gear? It's just how you change gear, isn't it?

For example, if I'm approaching a roundabout at 70mph, I can either brake down to the right speed, say 20mph, then select 2nd gear and drive round. Or, I can brake down to the right speed and during this time select 4th, 3rd and 2nd. Of the two, I would think heel 'n' toe would have more chance of locking the wheels because you're using the engine to slow the car down as well as the brakes. As I said, I'm not sure I read the original post right though

Chris

well you are correct there....you could do alllll of your breaking first and then select the gear that you want, but that can be a little clumbsy if you are trying to do it fast, or means breaking a little earlier to give you time.

The idea is that you heal and toe and downshift as the speed decreases, so the engine is always in the correct power band and you are always in the correct gear for a given road speed!

For example, if I'm approaching a roundabout at 70mph, I can either brake down to the right speed, say 20mph, then select 2nd gear and drive round.

Think you've missed the point...would be braking "at" the limit of adhesion (ie. an emergency stop, I guess), and overlapping a gearchange, so that the additional engine braking would cause the tyres to break the limit of adhesion.

Though quite why you'd aim to get in that sort of situation... :rubchin:

Rob.

Ah I see now! Thanks for clearing that up. So does that mean with heel 'n' toe you'd relax the braking when you did the gear change to build in some "spare" traction?

Chris

chris - you shouldn't have to release the brakes when doing this, the idea is that the blip will allow you to feed in the next gear without a sudden change.. its the sudden change in speed if the revs are not matched that causes a lock up.

Rob.... its called a track mate!!!!

Rob.... its called a track mate!!!!

Surely all the more reason not to overlap braking and gear change, as you're more likely to unsettle the car, lose traction and put in a cr@p lap?

Rob.

Aha - that was the missing info I was looking for. My experience of heel 'n' toe had always been that under hard braking it means you can just work your way down the box, so when you mentioned wheels locking it confused me! Yes rev matched gear changes all the way

Chris

Surely all the more reason not to overlap braking and gear change, as you're more likely to unsettle the car, lose traction and put in a cr@p lap?

It depends on the car - a lot of them will have sequential boxes anyway so you need to go down through all the gears to get to the right one for the corner, but I think it does keep the car stable as it'll always have "drive" under braking. There's a fantastic

of a chap driving a 911 race car going from a fast straight in 6th down to a slow first gear turn. Heel 'n' toe and lots of double declutching!

Chris

It depends on the car - a lot of them will have sequential boxes anyway so you need to go down through all the gears to get to the right one for the corner.

You can still block shift sequential gearboxes can't you? Know you can with the smart one, just knock it the number of times you want it to change in quick succession, so you could brake down to the appropriate speed for the corner before then engaging the correct gear for the corner (clutch down, flip through the box, clutch up) and accelerating through it?

Rob.

I guess it's down to the gearbox - the Alpina with SMG didn't like it!

Chris

I guess it's down to the gearbox - the Alpina with SMG didn't like it!

Chris

It was more down to the car and the engine, for example David Carvell (ex british touring car driver) said that when he was racing the SD1s he HAD to heal and toe cus if not the compression of the engine would just lock up the rear axel :eek: not good when your coming into redgate or old hairpin!!!

Something that doesnt have as much compression isnt too much of an issew!!!!

Meah, i still do it anyway

Surely all the more reason not to overlap braking and gear change, as you're more likely to unsettle the car, lose traction and put in a cr@p lap?

Rob.

It does'nt work like that. Track use is nothing like road use.

you are braking & blipping the gears which you are using to aid your slowing when pressing on... smoother on the g'box... not an IAM/rospa shuffle, roll into a junction in whatever gear you approach, engaging the correct gear to blend onto junction and or stop.. I never agreed with that myself when I did IAM many moons ago.

your synchros will thank you for doing heel and toe on down changes. Its more mechanically sympathetic

It does'nt work like that.

Surely that rather depends on your driving style?

Rob.

your synchros will thank you for doing heel and toe on down changes. Its more mechanically sympathetic

More mechanically sympathetic than doing a clutch drag gear change! No more mechanically sympathetic than doing a non-heel 'n' toe rev-matched gear change.......

Chris