More mechanically sympathetic than doing a clutch drag gear change! No more mechanically sympathetic than doing a non-heel 'n' toe rev-matched gear change.......

Chris

...... but surely that's the whole point of heel'n'toe; to match the engine revs for the next gear and stop the engine dragging.

That is the unsettling part; as the dragged engine braking will add to your general braking force and create an imbalance that may well break the grip of the driven wheels.

Of course, going back to the dark ages the whole point of heel'n'toe is to be able to change gear and brake together when you need to do a double de-clutch gear change (with a non-syncro gearbox).

...... but surely that's the whole point of heel'n'toe; to match the engine revs for the next gear and stop the engine dragging.

No the whole point of doing it is to be able to brake and change gear at the same time. If you separate the braking and the gear changing you can still achieve a smooth mechanically sympathetic gear change by rev matching without using heel 'n' toe.

Chris

No the whole point of doing it is to be able to brake and change gear at the same time. If you separate the braking and the gear changing you can still achieve a smooth mechanically sympathetic gear change by rev matching without using heel 'n' toe.

Chris

Got to say your right there Chris; but perhaps it's a case of six of one & half a dozen of the other?

Surely that rather depends on your driving style?

Rob.

lol, does'nt everything..

drive an auto and dont worry then

No the whole point of doing it is to be able to brake and change gear at the same time. If you separate the braking and the gear changing you can still achieve a smooth mechanically sympathetic gear change by rev matching without using heel 'n' toe.

Chris

you rely on the synchros when you dont rev match.

night and day different.... with and without heel and toe

as I said, synchro's will thank you for aiding their rev matching, but nothing stopping you from not doing that, they should still work on downshifts.

kind of a pointless debate... without purpose tho is'nt it?

must be something wrong with my last 5 cars have electric throttles as when i left foot brake theres no power to the throttle so id would have thought heel and toe been pointless like left foot braking :thumbdwn:

must be something wrong with my last 5 cars have electric throttles as when I left foot brake there's no power to the throttle so id would have thought heel and toe been pointless like left foot braking :thumbdwn:

A safety feature as the ECU is programmed to think that if the brake and throttle are used together (as when left foot braking) there is a 'problem' and the throttle is cut

BUT momentary use of the throttle (as needed for heel'n'toe) seems to be allowed.

What is this "Brake Pedal" thing you all speak of?

Yes, engine speed match gear changes to road speed, brake as little as possible and take corners etc. under power. Frig! I've danced round an Evo at a roundabout in the wet in my Felly... Never heel & toed in my life - I can ddc tho :P (I may have a practice sometime )

must be something wrong with my last 5 cars have electric throttles as when i left foot brake theres no power to the throttle so id would have thought heel and toe been pointless like left foot braking :thumbdwn:

dbw and lfb is a time related thing hence lfb no workie but heel n toe will (blip)

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I've been giving this some thought...I cannot get the hang of the coordination required to brake and blip with my right foot at the same time, but I've found I can do really nice downshifts by dropping the clutch and braking, changing gear under braking then coming off the brake and onto the throttle just before raising the clutch...this probably sounds bleeding obvious but I've only just got the hang of it - the key seems to be 'waiting' for the gear lever to drop into the next gear without too much force which happens only once the car has slowed - then off brake, blip throttle and bring the clutch in smoothly....

Somehow I have a feeling the instructor is going to wet himself when I do this on my Exige experience day... :(

Somehow I have a feeling the instructor is going to wet himself when I do this on my Exige experience day... :(

I think he/she will! :eek:

Clutch and brake depressed at the same time is 'coasting'; any basic driving instructor will tell you that this is not on.

At an advanced level you are loosing the 'engine braking' factor to go with the footbrake - just read a few comments about F1 this year as to how tricky the cars will be to drive in the wet with the lack of (ECU) controlled engine braking.

A suggestion, which is how I was taught to heel-n-toe in the first place;

1) Learn and master how to do a double de-clutch gearshift to start with (without braking) best on an empty road/park/airfield.

2) Then incorporate the use of your heel to blip the throttle whilst resting lightly over the brake pedal and finally

3) Bring full brake operation into the equation.

good luck.

Actually maybe I explained it badly. After all, heel and toe requires brake and clutch to be depressed at the same time.

If you break the approach to a hazard into phases it might make it a bit clearer. You begin with the braking phase where you get the speed down to the right speed for negotiating the hazard. You then have the gear change phase which gets you the right gear for the speed. You then have the acceleration through the hazard.

So the IAM/RoSPA want you to keep these 3 phases separate (the famous brake/gear separation) whereas heel 'n' toe allows you to compress the two phases together which means you can shorten the approach to the hazard.

The best way of getting used to heel 'n' toe is to practice rev matching on the gear change - once you get this nice and accurate you'll know how much throttle you need to raise the revs. Once you've mastered that you just need to do it while you're on the brakes and it's only really any use if you're firmly on the brakes, which gives you a nice solid platform to roll your foot from.

When I was trying to get my head round it, I found going through the motions while the engine is off is quite a good way

Chris

Bahnstormer, I don't presume to be able to teach anyone how to drive well, but you've got the wrong end of the stick with the F1 issue. What the concern is over is having too high a torque spike on the downshift, and having that spike lock the back wheels.